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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
    
Location: Florida.. | I realize some wont agree and thats ok.. Just a simple post ..although I use a 3 piece snaffle..the last paragraph I really like.
""When a lot of folks can't get a horse to operate on a feel, in a snaffle, what most are going to tell you "hell, get a little more bridle, get a little more shank on it, get a chain on it" and then when he's really wanting to flip over then "tie his head down". If he really runs into the tie down then "get a bicycle chain over his nose".............I mean it DOESN'T STOP, IT BECOMES MEDIEVAL WHAT THEY DO.
But when you get a horse to where he's operating on a feel; it doesn'...t make much difference what you have.
Whereas a lot of people leave the snaffle bit because they flunked out, they failed...............and then they go and get another bit.
Of course these tack salesmen love that. They go and get another bit and then they flunk out in it, ruin their horse. Then they ruin them in that, then get another bit and then pretty soon they've got a whole wall full of bits and they still can't operate the **** thing.
All that money they've wasted on bits; they could've probably bought a decent saddle for the horse so he didn't have to put up with the junk they were riding in. Now that would have been something that would have been worthwhile.
So if you don't get it done in the snaffle (the basics that a horse needs, the fundamental movements that all horses need to do for whatever you have in mind for them) before moving on to something else, well............you're not going to get it."" - Buck Brannaman.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-10-24 9:12 PM
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 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! |   |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I am a bit collector, most are super gentle but I keep most everything in a ring snaffle unless they are for sale. No one wants a horse that is 8 yrs old and in a ring snaffle. They think they aren't broke  |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | wyoming barrel racer - 2015-10-24 10:17 PM I am a bit collector, most are super gentle but I keep most everything in a ring snaffle unless they are for sale. No one wants a horse that is 8 yrs old and in a ring snaffle. They think they aren't broke
thats why I highlighted the last part.. thats the part that I believe in.. to put a foundation and the basics on a horse .. before moving to a stronger bit.. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Bibliafarm - 2015-10-24 8:22 PM wyoming barrel racer - 2015-10-24 10:17 PM I am a bit collector, most are super gentle but I keep most everything in a ring snaffle unless they are for sale. No one wants a horse that is 8 yrs old and in a ring snaffle. They think they aren't broke
I just love a soft horse in a snaffle. I wouldn't put them in anything else for the most part except to sell. |
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 Total Germophobe
Posts: 6437
Location: Montana | I love to ride in a snaffle or variation. I like to try out different bits, but I don't stray very far! I'm so comfortable in a snaffle, it is unbelieveable. |
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Location: Friendswood, Texas | I believe Clinton Anderson shares a similar philosophy. I wonder what he would say about a Jr. Cowhorse. That's what we use. |
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 I Chore in Chucks
Posts: 2882
Location: MD | Love this.. I just saw this somewhere else yesterday. I'm thankful both horses can still work well in a snaffle at their age and experience level.
I also love just about anything that comes out of BB's mouth... It always seems to click! |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | I have ridden horses in stronger bits but I've also transitioned a handful horses down from strong bits to smooth snaffles. That is always the goal. A snaffle with no other equipment is always the goal. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | It's a nice feel good thought and I understand and agree with the intent of the statement. However, if you limit yourself to a snaffle, you will never get the most out of any horse. Every single performance horse trainer uses a more suited bit than a snaffle on an aged horse. There are very few horses that are really good snaffle horses. It has nothing to do with is the horse or trainer good, just most horses don't do that well in one. Now that doesn't mean they do poorly, just not great on a performance level.
We start every horse in a snaffle and it is the most appropriate colt bit, bar none. And every horse trained right should definitely be able to be ridden in a snaffle. I just see people taking this the wrong way, not necessarily here but all over. There is an awful lot of not quite right ideas being spread by the clinician type trainers. A lot of it is great. I like Buck, but there are a few things he says that I don't think are right. Mainly comes from his mentors, whom I think are a little over rated. You can darn sure baby a horse too much and they have a tendency to do just that. Then you ask them to bump up and grow up and you get resistance. So, not one philosophy of training is right, you have to be able to do it all, easy to hard and everything in between...at the right time.
Please don't take the above the wrong way. I know he means that looking just to bits and equipment to solve your personal training faults is never the answer. So I 100% agree!
Edited by Tdove 2015-10-25 10:46 AM
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | actually glad you posted..lol... i dont read him or study him but I guess some could take it wrong..I just saw this and reposted it because I agree with highlighted part and see so many going right to strong bit with out getting a foundation.. the 3 piece helps the suppling and bending and body control and if you skip it down later they will get stff...I was hoping no one would take it wrong..a starter bit for a strong foundation .. before you transition.. the highlighter part explains that .to go directly to a harsh bit without being able to do basic foundation work in a snaffle first could lead to issues down the road. your post made me realize that some could take it wrong and be lead to believe it means staying in a snaffle .. yes we ride all our upper level horses in other bits.. we start in snaffle and get solid foundation .. we move up.. we go back for schooling if we have issues that are basic and need suppling , body control that sort of thing.. work on strong backs .flexing etc.. I would have hoped that the highlighted area emphasized that but I guess not.. no we cant ride in a snaffle only.. as we move up.. impossible.. but its our go to bit.. and used more then others for daily work .. and we use the 3 piece KK training bit. so thank you for posting and making me realize the statements could be misinterpreted...I am a firm believer in taking lil bits of knowledge and information and trying it.. and all horses are differant.. for me a foundation in snaffle is the best approach as you stated as well..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-10-25 11:22 AM
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-10-25 10:53 AM I have ridden horses in stronger bits but I've also transitioned a handful horses down from strong bits to smooth snaffles. That is always the goal. A snaffle with no other equipment is always the goal.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-10-25 11:18 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1694
Location: Willows, CA | This is a touchy subject here. I have done a few events with Buck, and spent more days than I can count with the man that he would tell you that he learned most from, Ray Hunt. Inferring that perhaps Ray was overrated would be an interesting point if you did not spend time to really understand the depth of understanding that man and his mentor, Tom Dorrance had. None of these horsemen left a horse in a snaffle once the horse was ready to advance into a hackamore, then two rein and bridle following the traditional bridal horse system I was a presenter at the legacy of Legends event in Ft Worth last year with Buck. If I recall, his main horse was straight up in the bridle. Ray often told me that, for him, his favorite horses were the traditional California Bridal horse, and Dressage horses. The Spanish Riding School gave Ray a private demonstration when he was there, and it was a very special thing for Ray that they honored him that way The point of those guys was not to leave a horse in a snaffle. The point was not to move them on until they are ready, and not to move them on just because you can't get what you want. Today we are all in a hurry to rush a horse forward to fit aged event time tables. They have to be to a certain point by a certain time, ready or not. One way to try to do this is to shove more in their mouth than they are ready for. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| winwillows - 2015-10-25 12:06 PM
This is a touchy subject here. I have done a few events with Buck, and spent more days than I can count with the man that he would tell you that he learned most from, Ray Hunt. Inferring that perhaps Ray was overrated would be an interesting point if you did not spend time to really understand the depth of understanding that man and his mentor, Tom Dorrance had. None of these horsemen left a horse in a snaffle once the horse was ready to advance into a hackamore, then two rein and bridle following the traditional bridal horse system I was a presenter at the legacy of Legends event in Ft Worth last year with Buck. If I recall, his main horse was straight up in the bridle. Ray often told me that, for him, his favorite horses were the traditional California Bridal horse, and Dressage horses. The Spanish Riding School gave Ray a private demonstration when he was there, and it was a very special thing for Ray that they honored him that way The point of those guys was not to leave a horse in a snaffle. The point was not to move them on until they are ready, and not to move them on just because you can't get what you want. Today we are all in a hurry to rush a horse forward to fit aged event time tables. They have to be to a certain point by a certain time, ready or not. One way to try to do this is to shove more in their mouth than they are ready for.
Thanks for the explanation. I can never explain it well to other people, but you sure did.
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | winwillows - 2015-10-25 11:06 AM This is a touchy subject here. I have done a few events with Buck, and spent more days than I can count with the man that he would tell you that he learned most from, Ray Hunt. Inferring that perhaps Ray was overrated would be an interesting point if you did not spend time to really understand the depth of understanding that man and his mentor, Tom Dorrance had. None of these horsemen left a horse in a snaffle once the horse was ready to advance into a hackamore, then two rein and bridle following the traditional bridal horse system I was a presenter at the legacy of Legends event in Ft Worth last year with Buck. If I recall, his main horse was straight up in the bridle. Ray often told me that, for him, his favorite horses were the traditional California Bridal horse, and Dressage horses. The Spanish Riding School gave Ray a private demonstration when he was there, and it was a very special thing for Ray that they honored him that way The point of those guys was not to leave a horse in a snaffle. The point was not to move them on until they are ready, and not to move them on just because you can't get what you want. Today we are all in a hurry to rush a horse forward to fit aged event time tables. They have to be to a certain point by a certain time, ready or not. One way to try to do this is to shove more in their mouth than they are ready for.
Very true, but since I barrel race, ranch and do HUS/jump. It is very possible to leave them indefinitly in a snaffle. Were I showing in cowhorse events then they must be moved up per the rules as is with a lot of events. |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | Bibliafarm - 2015-10-25 11:16 AM cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-10-25 10:53 AM I have ridden horses in stronger bits but I've also transitioned a handful horses down from strong bits to smooth snaffles. That is always the goal. A snaffle with no other equipment is always the goal.
Well these are not Grand Prix horses or high level anything really. So yes, my goal is to be able to ride my horses in snaffles. Of course if you are training a horse for high level dressage, you are going to transition to a double bridle. And a finished reiner, western pleasure horse, etc. is going to move to a curb. But not because they "need" a stronger bit or "can't" do something in a snaffle. Rather because they have been trained properly in a snaffle and when they are ready for even more precise, light cues they are introduced to other bits. I'll use Charolette and Valegro for an example, yes they are a GP dressage team and use a double bridle but still school in a snaffle. Valegro can perform all the GP movements, extremely well, in a loose ring. But of course the double bridle allows for even more subtle cues which is especially important in the competition ring.
Most people are not like those I mentioned above. Most do what Buck is referring to. All the horses I've transitioned back to snaffles were put in strong bits they did NOT need and were NOT ready for. They were not trained to accept the bit lightly and carry it themselves. Their owners had issues so rather than work through it ,put a stronger bit on. I don't consider myself a trainer or anything special as a rider, but I worked really hard on gradually getting those horses back to snaffles to fix those foundational issues. Take my one and only horse right now, Cash, for example. Was ridden in bits stronger than he needs. I have had to slowly work back down to a french link full cheek. We are still in the process of getting him responding to when he is excited but it's getting better. I want to be able to be confident in a snaffle whether we're schooling dressage, trail riding, or practicing mounted shooting. But does that mean I am not open to re-introducing him to a curb once he's able to neck rein reliably? No. In fact that is the plan. But even so I should still be able to use a snaffle whenever I want and he will work well in it. That, to me, is a well trained horse. |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Tdove - 2015-10-25 10:33 AM It's a nice feel good thought and I understand and agree with the intent of the statement. However, if you limit yourself to a snaffle, you will never get the most out of any horse. Every single performance horse trainer uses a more suited bit than a snaffle on an aged horse. There are very few horses that are really good snaffle horses. It has nothing to do with is the horse or trainer good, just most horses don't do that well in one. Now that doesn't mean they do poorly, just not great on a performance level. We start every horse in a snaffle and it is the most appropriate colt bit, bar none. And every horse trained right should definitely be able to be ridden in a snaffle. I just see people taking this the wrong way, not necessarily here but all over. There is an awful lot of not quite right ideas being spread by the clinician type trainers. A lot of it is great. I like Buck, but there are a few things he says that I don't think are right. Mainly comes from his mentors, whom I think are a little over rated. You can darn sure baby a horse too much and they have a tendency to do just that. Then you ask them to bump up and grow up and you get resistance. So, not one philosophy of training is right, you have to be able to do it all, easy to hard and everything in between...at the right time. Please don't take the above the wrong way. I know he means that looking just to bits and equipment to solve your personal training faults is never the answer. So I 100% agree!
I agree. I can ride any of mine in a snaffle, but other bits can provide a refinement of communication you just can't get in a snaffle. And when it comes to a hard running, high on adrenaline barrel horse, you might need a little louder bit to get their attention and still maintain quiet hands. That's not the goal as a trainer, but it's the reality for some horses. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | winwillows - 2015-10-25 1:06 PM This is a touchy subject here. I have done a few events with Buck, and spent more days than I can count with the man that he would tell you that he learned most from, Ray Hunt. Inferring that perhaps Ray was overrated would be an interesting point if you did not spend time to really understand the depth of understanding that man and his mentor, Tom Dorrance had. None of these horsemen left a horse in a snaffle once the horse was ready to advance into a hackamore, then two rein and bridle following the traditional bridal horse system I was a presenter at the legacy of Legends event in Ft Worth last year with Buck. If I recall, his main horse was straight up in the bridle. Ray often told me that, for him, his favorite horses were the traditional California Bridal horse, and Dressage horses. The Spanish Riding School gave Ray a private demonstration when he was there, and it was a very special thing for Ray that they honored him that way The point of those guys was not to leave a horse in a snaffle. The point was not to move them on until they are ready, and not to move them on just because you can't get what you want. Today we are all in a hurry to rush a horse forward to fit aged event time tables. They have to be to a certain point by a certain time, ready or not. One way to try to do this is to shove more in their mouth than they are ready for.
exactly.. its a it to get a firm foundation with,, I think I highlighted that as well.. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 509
| why isn't the spade bit considered midevil? I think there are so many people wh o forget how much he rides in a spade my neighbors try to mimic him they keep everything in an jerrimiah watt and have the most dead mouthed dull uncollected horses I've rode. It takes time a lot of feel and constant work to keep one light in a eggbut snaffle |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | tin can - 2015-10-25 7:48 PM why isn't the spade bit considered midevil? I think there are so many people wh o forget how much he rides in a spade my neighbors try to mimic him they keep everything in an jerrimiah watt and have the most dead mouthed dull uncollected horses I've rode. It takes time a lot of feel and constant work to keep one light in a eggbut snaffle
i have no idea but I do know his statement is about a starter bit to get a foundation before transitioning.. it seems the article is being misunderstood.lol.. he never mentioned not to transition.. |
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