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What Name?
Posts: 1994
   
|  ?http://www.cowspiracy.com/blog/2015/12/3/whole-foods-ethically-sourced-beef-supplier-destroys-over-1000-wild-horses
I know that article is going to stir up all kinds of hate. But here is a reason why America needs to adjust the beef industry. There needs to be limits on land and cattle. For oh so many reasons, or eventually the only horses in America will be the ones in ppls back yards.
Edited by americanpride08 2015-12-08 12:04 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| Is very much of the original "wild mustang" blood still in these horses? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | That is a really extreme blog. I'm not saying mustangs are not rounded up by the BLM as they obviously are. And pretty much everyone knows there are problems with the ways they manage the wild horse populations. The BLM is a mess and a half. BUT that website is pretty darn unreliable. If you want to inform yourself more on this issue, do look into the BLM itself, look into other news articles, and some editorial pieces done by people who study these issues (including WHY, completely separate from grazing cattle, wild horses are problematic in the west for their grazing habits). There is no doubt, entirely separate from cattle, that they tear up large amounts of range land for NATIVE animals. Wild horses in America died out a VERY LONG TIME ago. They are not native. Cattle actually have feeding habits much more similar to the native buffalo that used to roam in those areas. Be sure you don't fall into the reactionary hole that many people do when they see something on the internet. Educate yourself and then ask, "What, practically, can I do to help?" That website's view is 'be vegan.' That is their solution. Seriously? A bit oversimplistic I would think. Many people are still going to want to eat meat. And just like anything, wild horse populations left unchecked, as there are so very very few large predators left in America to keep their numbers down, will absolutely destroy the land. This is a COMPLEX issue with lots of people screaming on both sides of the street. We need some reasonable people to help tackle it. Just some things to think about. | |
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 Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
Location: Missouri | I don't have any intelligent ideas or anything...
just wanted to plug the movie Unbranded. LOVED it! Besides the breathtaking scenery and the entertainment value, it really made me aware of the "mustang" dilemma, without being too in-your-face controversial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swX4BLbmBNU
Edited by just4fun 2015-12-08 1:07 PM
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| There are zero 100% pure wild horse herds here in Utah. Utah also has one of the highest populations of wild horses in the US. It is an absolute joke that fact that people are crying about protecting a non-native invasive species. Next will be the Wild Coyote ACT of New York City.
If people had a clue. I can drive 30 west of the town I live in and see close to 200 "wild" horses at any given point. That by the way will out number the Deer, Elk, and Antelope combined. These feral horses are completely destroying the range. They are also so inbred that they are absolutly disgusting to look at.
On top of that the BLM is housing thousands of horses. The BLM pays private contrators to keep these horses. They pay the contrators $5-8 per day per head. One contrator I know grosses nearly $3 Million dollars annually to house 1000 head of feral horses at taxpayer expense.
What the BLM is doing is not managment...it is un-managment.
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| oija - 2015-12-08 12:33 PM That is a really extreme blog. I'm not saying mustangs are not rounded up by the BLM as they obviously are. And pretty much everyone knows there are problems with the ways they manage the wild horse populations. The BLM is a mess and a half. BUT that website is pretty darn unreliable. If you want to inform yourself more on this issue, do look into the BLM itself, look into other news articles, and some editorial pieces done by people who study these issues (including WHY, completely separate from grazing cattle, wild horses are problematic in the west for their grazing habits). There is no doubt, entirely separate from cattle, that they tear up large amounts of range land for NATIVE animals. Wild horses in America died out a VERY LONG TIME ago. They are not native. Cattle actually have feeding habits much more similar to the native buffalo that used to roam in those areas. Be sure you don't fall into the reactionary hole that many people do when they see something on the internet. Educate yourself and then ask, "What, practically, can I do to help?" That website's view is 'be vegan.' That is their solution. Seriously? A bit oversimplistic I would think. Many people are still going to want to eat meat. And just like anything, wild horse populations left unchecked, as there are so very very few large predators left in America to keep their numbers down, will absolutely destroy the land. This is a COMPLEX issue with lots of people screaming on both sides of the street. We need some reasonable people to help tackle it. Just some things to think about.
Back in the day, they allowed the ranchers to Catch the horses during a specified time of year (Fall). This was a reasonable way to reduce the numbers, cull the herds, and keep them "aware" of humans...as in they see dust on the road and they were gone! Since they have changed from rancher managment to blm manament the problem has increased 100X. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 291
| What do you mean by limits on land and cattle? Really? The federal government is going to tell me how many cattle I can own?! If ranchers are not leasing this land to run on who will? You don't think there should be any income made from these properties? | |
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Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | Whiteboy - 2015-12-08 1:04 PM
oija - 2015-12-08 12:33 PM That is a really extreme blog. I'm not saying mustangs are not rounded up by the BLM as they obviously are. And pretty much everyone knows there are problems with the ways they manage the wild horse populations. The BLM is a mess and a half. BUT that website is pretty darn unreliable. If you want to inform yourself more on this issue, do look into the BLM itself, look into other news articles, and some editorial pieces done by people who study these issues (including WHY, completely separate from grazing cattle, wild horses are problematic in the west for their grazing habits). There is no doubt, entirely separate from cattle, that they tear up large amounts of range land for NATIVE animals. Wild horses in America died out a VERY LONG TIME ago. They are not native. Cattle actually have feeding habits much more similar to the native buffalo that used to roam in those areas. Be sure you don't fall into the reactionary hole that many people do when they see something on the internet. Educate yourself and then ask, "What, practically, can I do to help?" That website's view is 'be vegan.' That is their solution. Seriously? A bit oversimplistic I would think. Many people are still going to want to eat meat. And just like anything, wild horse populations left unchecked, as there are so very very few large predators left in America to keep their numbers down, will absolutely destroy the land. This is a COMPLEX issue with lots of people screaming on both sides of the street. We need some reasonable people to help tackle it. Just some things to think about.
Back in the day, they allowed the ranchers to Catch the horses during a specified time of year (Fall). This was a reasonable way to reduce the numbers, cull the herds, and keep them "aware" of humans...as in they see dust on the road and they were gone! Since they have changed from rancher managment to blm manament the problem has increased 100X.
Yes, its sad. We have romanticized these herds. They are a major issue. Many used to be rounded up and slaughtered. I hate that solution too, such a waste of life. But if they weren't left to run rampant across these range lands some of these management issues wouldn't exist. And at the end of the day they are non-native. I don't agree with overgrazing cattle on some of these range lands either. It's a clusterflop anyway you look at it in its current state. | |
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Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
Location: Missouri | river runner - 2015-12-08 1:15 PM What do you mean by limits on land and cattle? Really? The federal government is going to tell me how many cattle I can own?! If ranchers are not leasing this land to run on who will? You don't think there should be any income made from these properties? The government regulates how many cows can be put on public land, not how many you can own.
It's not exactly a cash cow...
In 2014, the government allocated nearly $80 million for rangeland management. They collected $12.1 million in grazing fees (from Fact Sheet on the BLM’s Management of Livestock Grazing)
I hope we always carefully manage our public lands so as not to lose them. My family spends a lot of time on them, my husband especially. I think it's one of the great things about our country...
Edited by just4fun 2015-12-08 1:31 PM
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Its interesting that the range land horses vs cattle always comes up. The difference is that the ranchers are managing the land for future years. One nearby location has some 120 acre sections that are private, on the other side of the fence is BLM ground. The BLM gound (with no cattle) is picked clean, of even the sage brush, while the private section (with lots of cattle) is still covered in rangeland grasses. I really need to get a picture of it, just to show the stark contrast. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| I personally think they need to be treated as normal livestock, culled annually, and said culls turned into dog food or (gasp) canned meat to feed the needy.
We are so fortunate in our country to be able to keep 1,000 pound pets. I shake my head at this clust-f^(k often. | |
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Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
Location: Missouri | Whiteboy - 2015-12-08 1:29 PM Its interesting that the range land horses vs cattle always comes up. The difference is that the ranchers are managing the land for future years. One nearby location has some 120 acre sections that are private, on the other side of the fence is BLM ground. The BLM gound (with no cattle) is picked clean, of even the sage brush, while the private section (with lots of cattle) is still covered in rangeland grasses. I really need to get a picture of it, just to show the stark contrast. I was totally unaware of these issues until I watched Unbranded. How can we (the public) be so uninformed? Of course everyone wants to "save the horses," but save them from what? They are starving to death. I honestly didn't know it was so bad, and I consider myself fairly interested in the topic...
Edited by just4fun 2015-12-08 1:45 PM
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| just4fun - 2015-12-08 1:29 PM
river runner - 2015-12-08 1:15 PM What do you mean by limits on land and cattle? Really? The federal government is going to tell me how many cattle I can own?! If ranchers are not leasing this land to run on who will? You don't think there should be any income made from these properties? The government regulates how many cows can be put on public land, not how many you can own.
It's not exactly a cash cow...
In 2014, the government allocated nearly $80 million for rangeland management. They collected $12.1 million in grazing fees (from Fact Sheet on the BLM’s Management of Livestock Grazing ) I hope we always carefully manage our public lands so as not to lose them. My family spends a lot of time on them, my husband especially. I think it's one of the great things about our country...
Thank you. It ****es me off when people think we don't pay to lease public lands, and that everyone has the right to keep that opportunity. Very stringent requirements are put out by federal agencies in regards to grazing standards and numbers. Plant populations are monitored throughout each year, and recorded by the agency. (I was raised by ranchers using fed land, and have worked for those agencies doing the grunt work of assembling species population surveys).
There's "wild" horses everywhere in Wyoming. What people fail to realize, is the herds in Sublette and Fremont county were groomed by people like my great great and great grandfather. They shot the native studs and turned out draft and thoroughbred studs, and then gathered the offspring. Anything useable was broke and put to work, or taken to the train for slaughter.
I don't think unless you're there living the life, working at the controlling agency, or watching a feral stud die in the sagebrush a day at a time from a broken leg after fighting for a mare, that your opinion should have much import. I think that more people need to get their feet on the ground and see what can truly be done for the horses, rather than looking to tear down and ecosystem of plants that biologically are meant to be grazed. Horses are death on a grass plant, they often tear up the root. Cows can't, they often leave a good portion of the plant. Successful grazing practices actually magnify plant health. Something needs to be done about pop control of the horses, as they're the ones that pay for mismanagement.
Edited by classicpotatochip 2015-12-08 1:49 PM
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What Name?
Posts: 1994
| just4fun - 2015-12-08 12:35 PM
I don't have any intelligent ideas or anything...
just wanted to plug the movie Unbranded. LOVED it! Besides the breathtaking scenery and the entertainment value, it really made me aware of the "mustang" dilemma, without being too in-your-face controversial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swX4BLbmBNU
I'll have to check it out. Thanks =) | |
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What Name?
Posts: 1994
| oija - 2015-12-08 1:20 PM
Whiteboy - 2015-12-08 1:04 PM
oija - 2015-12-08 12:33 PM That is a really extreme blog. I'm not saying mustangs are not rounded up by the BLM as they obviously are. And pretty much everyone knows there are problems with the ways they manage the wild horse populations. The BLM is a mess and a half. BUT that website is pretty darn unreliable. If you want to inform yourself more on this issue, do look into the BLM itself, look into other news articles, and some editorial pieces done by people who study these issues (including WHY, completely separate from grazing cattle, wild horses are problematic in the west for their grazing habits). There is no doubt, entirely separate from cattle, that they tear up large amounts of range land for NATIVE animals. Wild horses in America died out a VERY LONG TIME ago. They are not native. Cattle actually have feeding habits much more similar to the native buffalo that used to roam in those areas. Be sure you don't fall into the reactionary hole that many people do when they see something on the internet. Educate yourself and then ask, "What, practically, can I do to help?" That website's view is 'be vegan.' That is their solution. Seriously? A bit oversimplistic I would think. Many people are still going to want to eat meat. And just like anything, wild horse populations left unchecked, as there are so very very few large predators left in America to keep their numbers down, will absolutely destroy the land. This is a COMPLEX issue with lots of people screaming on both sides of the street. We need some reasonable people to help tackle it. Just some things to think about.
Back in the day, they allowed the ranchers to Catch the horses during a specified time of year (Fall). This was a reasonable way to reduce the numbers, cull the herds, and keep them "aware" of humans...as in they see dust on the road and they were gone! Since they have changed from rancher managment to blm manament the problem has increased 100X.
Yes, its sad. We have romanticized these herds. They are a major issue. Many used to be rounded up and slaughtered. I hate that solution too, such a waste of life. But if they weren't left to run rampant across these range lands some of these management issues wouldn't exist. And at the end of the day they are non-native. I don't agree with overgrazing cattle on some of these range lands either. It's a clusterflop anyway you look at it in its current state.
I don't think they should be left to their own devices. But I think the way they go about handling it is one of the larger issues. Yes, extreme blog. But it speaks some truths. I have a friend who's a photograph that spends 75% of her life out there photographing what goes on, and some of the pictures are atrocious. On the flip side, a lot of it comes back to the government. It has more control of these things than the farmers and ranchers do. And the rest of the people are happily oblivious. part of the problem is people pretend there isn't one. Obviously its not ALL one factor. There are a lot of contributing factor. But the mustang, like the bald eagle is a part of American history. And I for one believe there should always be a number of the horses protected in the wild. Though, capturing and sterilizing a certain number to cull population will help. | |
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Cold hands and Warm Heart
Location: oklahoma | Here in Oklahoma, it's making people like the Drummonds and T.Boone Pickens and his wife, multi millionaires. We tax payers pay around 500$ a head to these people a year to house them. The Drummonds own about 3,000 head, not sure about T.Boone. One of the biggest money making schemes around and I'd almost bet that the bloodlines are so diluted that there's little to no mustang left, feral yes. | |
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10D Crack Champion
| CurlyQ - 2015-12-08 6:11 PM Here in Oklahoma, it's making people like the Drummonds and T.Boone Pickens and his wife, multi millionaires. We tax payers pay around 500$ a head to these people a year to house them. The Drummonds own about 3,000 head, not sure about T.Boone. One of the biggest money making schemes around and I'd almost bet that the bloodlines are so diluted that there's little to no mustang left, feral yes.
Yep. Those are just 2. There are several more ranches in Oklahoma that house them. Heck, one ranch I know of doesn't even run cattle anymore because it is easier and more profitable to house "mustangs". | |
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10D Crack Champion
| I didn't read the article. My eyes are tired.
Maybe instead of limiting land and cattle we should just limit construction, houses and people. Folks can just live in tall apartment buildings in town instead of building homes "in the country" right next to each other.
Edited by sodapop 2015-12-08 7:33 PM
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Bigfoot - 2015-12-08 11:28 AM Is very much of the original "wild mustang" blood still in these horses?
no, not at all. I am in WY and have seen the herds here several times. Many are branded...and a few are geldings so...good luck getting a hard working rancher to give up HIS land, bought and paid for, by reducing his cows when calves are bringing $1200+ to run a bunch of mixed ancestry horses that do the world no good what so ever. I am more for taking in retired horses that earned their keep-racing, roping, barrels than the "wild mustangs". I rode 2 in college and they were dinks. Gentle and friendly enough but very little heart. Not saying they all are but it is in their survival mode to do just enough to survive. Eat sleep poop, drink some water and reproduce. | |
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| Whiteboy - 2015-12-08 1:29 PM
Its interesting that the range land horses vs cattle always comes up. The difference is that the ranchers are managing the land for future years. One nearby location has some 120 acre sections that are private, on the other side of the fence is BLM ground. The BLM gound (with no cattle) is picked clean, of even the sage brush, while the private section (with lots of cattle) is still covered in rangeland grasses. I really need to get a picture of it, just to show the stark contrast.
This is so true ... and most Americans miss the truth ... the federal government should not own any land and the present billions of acres they claim should be auctioned off to the public and the few scenic parks turned over to each state to own and manage.
Private ownership brings out the best way to care for the land you own where those that lease will overgraze for the short term profits and to hell with the long term condition of the property!!
The best mustang situation would be for honest ranchers to own the land and control the herd to a true mustang standard of dinky small old spanish blooded horses that the Spanish explorers brought with them. Not culls that were turned loose and are breeding like rabbits. A private owner could easily run a guest ranch and city slicker viewing area or several herds of wild never handled horses and charge admission to see some genuine mustangs. No federal or state nonsense involved !!
Horse processing plants are needed desperately to contain the low end market for horses and who cares what people in other countries eat and enjoy.
The wild fires created by the federal government city slicker managers are due to stupidity ... due to no logging and livestock in areas with pine forests the underbrush provides fuel for these devastating fires. On the same subject anyone stupid enough to build homes in these type areas or flooding areas should never be able to buy insurance to rebuild and raise the cost of insurance for those not at risk ..
Fire is a good thing when Mother Nature is allowed to clear out an area. Pine seed and majority of native grasses require a fire in order for their seed to be able to germinate!! But .. here comes the feds with their planes and an army of stupid people with 5 gallon water tanks spraying water on smoking logs behind the fire wile leaving small towns unprotected. If land was privately owned there would be fire breaks across great forests and you could literally let a fire burn itself out. Then allow logging companies to quickly remove the burned upright timber and let the new seedlings create an entire new forest...
Those of you that live where there has been a "runaway" fire the past 4 years on sagebrush range land... .. go look at the grass that has replenished itself from seeds that could be a 100 years old. With livestock control by a private land owner and not over grazing ... these lands would rejuvenate themselves for future generations.
As I stated before ..... the federal government should not claim to own nor grab more land with tax payer money ... whatever is needed .. private ownership will save the scenic views, a few wild herds of genuine mustangs, huge prairies of tall waving buffalo grasses along with majestic forests for all to see and enjoy ... free enterprise is always a jillion times better than anything the government has tried to accomplish ...
These two links will demonstrate the amount of land the federal government controls and does not include the millions of acres Obama has declared as national monuments nor does it show how the United Nations is in control of most of our national park systems ...
http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/291-federal-lands-in-the-us
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/19/westerners-fear-monument...
The problem with white people is they are busy trying to create something while the government and environmental groups are constantly trying to take something ... and they are being paid with your tax dollars to make their taking happen ...
When you think of federal lands tomorrow .... think of owning it and look at the amount of money that can be saved by disbanding all the hidden agencies spending your money on themselves and the massive administration costs .. and taking the mineral rights away from the feds and making use of the oil, gas and minerals that are on these properties ... for the public good ..
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