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 Expert
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Location: Gainesville, TX | Okay, so all of us barrel racer types go on and on about ground. Obviously it matters to us when our horses fall and the conditions are not just detrimental to competition but downright dangerous. But then of course its a real risk as we've seen with the long discussion post about Carley and poor Radio. Firewater Fiesta was another one who experienced a career ending injury at the NFR as did Bumper. I know we are the most vocal but we can't be the only ones who care. Rough stock contractors have to care about the health and safety of their animals too. Personally, I've seen some slipping and falls in those events too at the NFR if I take the time to look.
I think when it comes to rodeo the number one thing we have to be concerned with since we ask so much of them is the welfare of our animal athletes. Anything that compromises that has to be looked at more closely, especially with so many animal rights advocates already trying to get the whole sport thrown out. A good instance is the calf roping. If the calf is roped and then the horse stops too hard and all four feet leave the ground and it slams to earth, the competitor is DQ'd. This is a welfare rule made to protect the calves and to aid in the public image of our sport. Tuf was fined at Calgary for getting after his horse too hard for similar reasons. We need to be conscious of these issues.
All that being said, I can remember back a few years ago when I was doing research for my dissertation reading a number of Temple Grandin's books. She attacked a pretty hairy dilemma with animal slaughter plants also dealing with welfare issues. She described a situation where the USDA had like 100 check off points to judge whether or not a plant was safe or not. But plants that would pass the inspection would still have to hot shot a number of animals, have slips and falls, or have them still alive and kicking as they were lifted up in the area to be desanguinated. All of these were still marks of issues of inhumane treatment despite the welfare check. So she proposed a much simpler system. She didn't care what kind of pipe was used, the type of air flow etc. At the end of the day every marker on her welfare check had to do with the animals. Out of 100 cattle how many fell? Out of 100 cattle how many stopped or paused? How many called out in distress (ie vocalized)? how many had to be hotshotted? how many did not experience a successful bolt? She had minimum benchmarks for any of these. All the slaughter plants tried to claim special circumstances where they had to set up their chutes in a certain way or run so many cattle through or have so and so do the captive bolt in such a way. But she didn't care. At the end of the day she only worried about the numbers of cattle in distress. And if the site didn't meet her welfare benchmark then she would look into the issue closer to make suggestions to help them meet the benchmark including new flooring, uniquely designed chute systems, running more or fewer cattle through at a time, more specialized training, etc. The suggestions were always based on that unique plant's circumstances but the minimum benchmark for welfare was always the animals. Either the plant was humane or it was not. If it wasn't then you needed to explore ways to fix it.
When it comes to the ground at our events, I don't care if it involves jumping, rough stock, barrels, or goat riding, we need to measure our welfare success by the numbers of animals who slip and/or fall. We need a minimum benchmark for safety. If its not safe then we can look into causes and try and address it. If the WPRA and PRCA both accepted a minimum welfare standard on this matter, not just 100 point type check where the soil looks like the right concentration etc., it would remove excuses for not addressing matters of bad ground. And the barrel racing cannot be the only measure. We need to look across all events.
Grandin also knew that animals might be in distress for reasons other than those that were created by the plants. For instance she said not to count the number of cattle who bawled after they were touched on their ear or nose as they were likely to do this anyway. We could make these same sort of 'exception' guidelines to help address some of the other reasons an animal might slip or fall (including proving the animal had neurological damage before entering the arena or some other circumstance).
If an event didn't meet the minimum guidelines, they would be given a year or two (round or two in multi-round events) to fix the issue and then risk a fine or losing their sanction. Am I off my rocker or should we start counting slips and falls and come up with a minimum standard? |
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Expert
Posts: 2122
Location: The Great Northwest | Another recent fall was Stingray a couple of years ago. |
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 Saint Stacey
| It isn't that simple. In comparing it to slaughter, you are talking about large numbers doing one thing. But in rodeo, different events prefer different conditions.
For example, while most barrel horses like a little deeper ground they can get into, that deep ground for a roping steer can case problems. Or it can cause a calf not to run as hard. Bucking stock buck better on harder ground so many stock contractors would rather it be a little hard over deep.
Also, while it might not apply to indoor rodeos where you have a controlled climate, what about rodeos like Garden City KS last year that started out with good conditions and then Mother Nature happened? It got so bad in the last perf that many girls trotted the pattern.
To say you need a standard is honorable. But with multi events happening in the course of a perf, and all those events wanting a little different ground for their animals to have optimal performances, it just isn't that simple I'm afraid. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| Didn't Chasin Firewater have a pretty bad fall with Jill Moody a few years ago, which resulted in his stifle injury that they had to put him down because of?
Edited by WetSaddleBlankets 2015-12-08 7:20 PM
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Saint Stacey
| The ground issue at the NFR W would be easily solved if they would simply can the general manager. Busby's offered to pay fornew ground. As you can see, that obviously ddidn't happen. As long as Steve what's-his-face is running the NFR, it won't change. |
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Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | SKM - 2015-12-08 7:16 PM
It isn't that simple. In comparing it to slaughter, you are talking about large numbers doing one thing. But in rodeo, different events prefer different conditions.
For example, while most barrel horses like a little deeper ground they can get into, that deep ground for a roping steer can case problems. Or it can cause a calf not to run as hard. Bucking stock buck better on harder ground so many stock contractors would rather it be a little hard over deep.
Also, while it might not apply to indoor rodeos where you have a controlled climate, what about rodeos like Garden City KS last year that started out with good conditions and then Mother Nature happened? It got so bad in the last perf that many girls trotted the pattern.
To say you need a standard is honorable. But with multi events happening in the course of a perf, and all those events wanting a little different ground for their animals to have optimal performances, it just isn't that simple I'm afraid.
See I'd like to see counterarguments like these. Good issues to bring up.
But then again the minimum doesn't really have to do with who performs better on what, so long as the ground is safe enough for everybody.
The Mother Nature issue would certainly raise some questions. My hubby and I were talking about some of this too and he was saying there were too many circumstances, and that if you changed anything then everyone would have to have a chance to rerun to run on the same conditions. But with Mother Nature as a factor then the question becomes do you run at all, change venues, refund entry fees, etc.
I still think a minimum benchmark for safety, not best competition, isn't a bad idea to explore. Grandin has about 10 different measurements for overall welfare. We might be looking at a multipoint standard like that. |
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10D Crack Champion
| SKM - 2015-12-08 7:19 PM The ground issue at the NFR W would be easily solved if they would simply can the general manager. Busby's offered to pay fornew ground. As you can see, that obviously ddidn't happen. As long as Steve what's-his-face is running the NFR, it won't change.
I think Shawn Davis has been in charge out there for many, many years. |
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Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | sodapop - 2015-12-08 7:23 PM
SKM - 2015-12-08 7:19 PM The ground issue at the NFR W would be easily solved if they would simply can the general manager. Busby's offered to pay fornew ground. As you can see, that obviously ddidn't happen. As long as Steve what's-his-face is running the NFR, it won't change.
I think Shawn Davis has been in charge out there for many, many years.
Yes, but the NFR is not the only venue with bad ground. A standard would force all dangerous venues to reconsider and they wouldn't be able to refuse to fix it. |
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Saint Stacey
| sodapop - 2015-12-08 6:23 PM
SKM - 2015-12-08 7:19 PM The ground issue at the NFR W would be easily solved if they would simply can the general manager. Busby's offered to pay fornew ground. As you can see, that obviously ddidn't happen. As long as Steve what's-his-face is running the NFR, it won't change.
I think Shawn Davis has been in charge out there for many, many years.
Yep! That's the guy. He needs canned. |
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Saint Stacey
| oija - 2015-12-08 6:24 PM
sodapop - 2015-12-08 7:23 PM
SKM - 2015-12-08 7:19 PM The ground issue at the NFR W would be easily solved if they would simply can the general manager. Busby's offered to pay fornew ground. As you can see, that obviously ddidn't happen. As long as Steve what's-his-face is running the NFR, it won't change.
I think Shawn Davis has been in charge out there for many, many years.
Yes, but the NFR is not the only venue with bad ground. A standard would force all dangerous venues to reconsider and they wouldn't be able to refuse to fix it.
Most rodeos are run by volunteer committee's that have no idea what good ground is. In 2014 the ground at the fall rodeo in Casper was so bad they stopped slack, reworked the ground and let those in slack rerun if they wanted to. 2015 was a different ball game. The committee realized there was a problem so they vowed not to let it happen again. They hand raked after 5 and drug at 10. The ground was really nice!
People just need educated. Those committees don't want to see animals get hurt. They want to put on great rodeo's. But they simply have no idea what they are doing a lot of times. |
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Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | SKM - 2015-12-08 7:47 PM
oija - 2015-12-08 6:24 PM
sodapop - 2015-12-08 7:23 PM
SKM - 2015-12-08 7:19 PM The ground issue at the NFR W would be easily solved if they would simply can the general manager. Busby's offered to pay fornew ground. As you can see, that obviously ddidn't happen. As long as Steve what's-his-face is running the NFR, it won't change.
I think Shawn Davis has been in charge out there for many, many years.
Yes, but the NFR is not the only venue with bad ground. A standard would force all dangerous venues to reconsider and they wouldn't be able to refuse to fix it.
Most rodeos are run by volunteer committee's that have no idea what good ground is. In 2014 the ground at the fall rodeo in Casper was so bad they stopped slack, reworked the ground and let those in slack rerun if they wanted to. 2015 was a different ball game. The committee realized there was a problem so they vowed not to let it happen again. They hand raked after 5 and drug at 10. The ground was really nice!
People just need educated. Those committees don't want to see animals get hurt. They want to put on great rodeo's. But they simply have no idea what they are doing a lot of times.
That's a great story. Makes you wish everyone would get with the program so well. |
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 Chicken Chick
Posts: 3562
Location: Texas | SKM - 2015-12-08 7:16 PM
It isn't that simple. In comparing it to slaughter, you are talking about large numbers doing one thing. But in rodeo, different events prefer different conditions.
For example, while most barrel horses like a little deeper ground they can get into, that deep ground for a roping steer can case problems. Or it can cause a calf not to run as hard. Bucking stock buck better on harder ground so many stock contractors would rather it be a little hard over deep.
Also, while it might not apply to indoor rodeos where you have a controlled climate, what about rodeos like Garden City KS last year that started out with good conditions and then Mother Nature happened? It got so bad in the last perf that many girls trotted the pattern.
To say you need a standard is honorable. But with multi events happening in the course of a perf, and all those events wanting a little different ground for their animals to have optimal performances, it just isn't that simple I'm afraid.
I know nothing about what the other events prefer, but could there be a happy medium? Not great ground for the other events but dangerous for 1. Is it possible to make the ground not so dangerous for barrels, but still not horrible for the other events? Granted you can't help mother nature but that is something that comes with the territory with out door rodeos. Indoor rodeos, especially the super bowl of rodeos could be a little better managed I believe. I understand they can't have perfect conditions for barrel racing. To me that is the difference between a rodeo and a barrel racing jackpot. Rodeos are going to have worse ground but I believe with some brainstorming they could at least make the nfr a little safer for everyone. Granted slips and falls are going to happen, but in the barrels at the nfr they are far too frequent. |
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Holy Fruit Loops!
Posts: 1708
Location: Colorado | Why not start off with getting involved with the WPRA and go from there. Who is working the ground? Do you think it is some Jim Bob local with his garden tractor? Did the WPRA officers check the ground? Did they complain because it was shifty? If not, why not?
karen
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| You would think Shawn Davis, of all people, would want safe ground. When he was a saddle bronc ride, a bronc slipped and fell on him, breaking his back. He was not supposed to be able to ride again, though he did. He was a world champion several times. |
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas | WetSaddleBlankets - 2015-12-08 7:18 PM
Didn't Chasin Firewater have a pretty bad fall with Jill Moody a few years ago, which resulted in his stifle injury that they had to put him down because of?
He had feet issues that couldn't be resolved.
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | I wonder if hand raking at the NFR would change much? I was wondering about that a few days ago. Some of the bigger rodeo's down here hand rake between every barrel racer. I can't say weather it helps or not. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Last night a bull fell down. That is bad ground when that happens. Fifteen horses that run at this level make bad ground look even worse because of the extreme combination of speed and angle of attack that they exert. It is almost uncomfortable to watch when almost every horse has an issue to some degree when they run. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | oija - 2015-12-08 8:03 PM
SKM - 2015-12-08 7:47 PM
oija - 2015-12-08 6:24 PM
sodapop - 2015-12-08 7:23 PM
SKM - 2015-12-08 7:19 PM The ground issue at the NFR W would be easily solved if they would simply can the general manager. Busby's offered to pay fornew ground. As you can see, that obviously ddidn't happen. As long as Steve what's-his-face is running the NFR, it won't change.
I think Shawn Davis has been in charge out there for many, many years.
Yes, but the NFR is not the only venue with bad ground. A standard would force all dangerous venues to reconsider and they wouldn't be able to refuse to fix it.
Most rodeos are run by volunteer committee's that have no idea what good ground is. In 2014 the ground at the fall rodeo in Casper was so bad they stopped slack, reworked the ground and let those in slack rerun if they wanted to. 2015 was a different ball game. The committee realized there was a problem so they vowed not to let it happen again. They hand raked after 5 and drug at 10. The ground was really nice!
People just need educated. Those committees don't want to see animals get hurt. They want to put on great rodeo's. But they simply have no idea what they are doing a lot of times.
That's a great story. Makes you wish everyone would get with the program so well.
The Garden City Beef Empire Days Rodeo Committees rent the arena from Finney County Fairgrounds. The fair grounds are in charge of the working of the arena. The Rodeo Committee has very little say in how the ground is managed. The arena is a venue for other attractions such as monster trucks and demolition derbies. When they dig up the arena for these events and then simply fill the hole back up. This is what caused the horrible conditions after soaking rains made the grounds dangerous. Having a benchmark won't make a difference in Garden City. They ran off the KPRA Finals years ago, very few horse events are held there, with the exception of jackpots. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 629
Location: Roping pen | What about costs? To me, that is the elephant in the room.
Most rodeos, no matter what level, can't afford any more than what they are doing. In example, the one I lead, I took my high dollar Kiser Arena Worker in to use. No way our fair board can afford to buy one as we have too many other priorities. ! I don't know if I can afford to donate its use every year as it is an expensive piece of equipment but it does make a huge difference.
Maybe we need to increase the stock/run charge to help pay for or reduce the added money to pay for better ground?
Previous post also discussed multi-event arenas. Our biggest money maker (that pays for most of the rodeos we have) is the demo derby. It leaves the arena a mess but we make a lot on it as we have very little costs.....
If you start making more regulations, we will either lose events or they will change associations. Another example-did you know that the barrels used must have the bungs on the bottom? Our barrels where painted by volunteers, with the bungs at the top. A judge threated to make us turn over the barrels so the writing would be upside down. I said, next year, we will be an open rodeo....that changed his mind. Would be great to have covers, but covers disappear, paint does not.
Yes, the ground is a concern, but this is kind of like the bull riding-you enter knowing that things are tough and dangerous. Yes, it could be better, but this is no surprise and I doubt it will change. Could the NFR be held with no barrels?
Good lucks.
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Saint Stacey
| GLP - 2015-12-08 8:30 PM
You would think Shawn Davis, of all people, would want safe ground. When he was a saddle bronc ride, a bronc slipped and fell on him, breaking his back. He was not supposed to be able to ride again, though he did. He was a world champion several times.
Shawn Davis owns the dirt that is used at the NFR. He had rented it out for a lot of $$ each year to the NFR.
Why would he care about it being safe when he's making bank on it? That's why offers to replace it have been turned down. He wouldn't be lining his pockets if he took them up on the offer to replace it.
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