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Regular
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| My horse will cough about 4 times after making a run. He only does this in the arena, when he is running in the pasture or breezing and long trotting which is a lot more exercise than making a run, he doesn't cough. I ran him just recently in a big outdoor arena that was not dusty at all and he coughed several times. I know he has some seasonal allergies, but could he be a bleeder if he only coughs after running barrels, and not in the field?
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Expert
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Location: Bandera, TX | Misschick77 - 2016-05-10 2:57 PM My horse will cough about 4 times after making a run. He only does this in the arena, when he is running in the pasture or breezing and long trotting which is a lot more exercise than making a run, he doesn't cough. I ran him just recently in a big outdoor arena that was not dusty at all and he coughed several times. I know he has some seasonal allergies, but could he be a bleeder if he only coughs after running barrels, and not in the field?
Yes, yes, and yes. The best diagnosis is a BAL they usually run $250-300. You will learn what you need to do for the horse. Your putting you horse at risk with continued bleeding episodes. Many horses with "allergies" become bleeders that I've been around as do the really fast horses that lay it all out. |
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Location: IL | When they run there is more pressure in their chest from rating, turning, and run full blast again. It's way different than in the pasture. My vet said if they cough after a run, then they bled. Even if you don't see it.
Edited by merdth6 2016-05-10 4:42 PM
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Expert
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Location: Bandera, TX | merdth6 - 2016-05-10 4:42 PM When they run there is more pressure in their chest from rating, turning, and run full blast again. It's way different than in the pasture. My vet said if they cough after a run, then they bled. Even if you don't see it.
I like the way you said this! Great point. I used antivibes on a mare I was running a few years ago it took care of her sporatic bleeding along with keeping her lungs clear. I had to be diligent in my next day care of her airways with the nebulizer. If I didn't and ran her again she would bleed. But the pad's between her shoes sure helped her. Wish their effectivness was more generalized.
I also agree with your vets cough assumption. |
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Location: IL | uno-dos-tres! - 2016-05-11 1:18 AM merdth6 - 2016-05-10 4:42 PM When they run there is more pressure in their chest from rating, turning, and run full blast again. It's way different than in the pasture. My vet said if they cough after a run, then they bled. Even if you don't see it. I like the way you said this! Great point. I used antivibes on a mare I was running a few years ago it took care of her sporatic bleeding along with keeping her lungs clear. I had to be diligent in my next day care of her airways with the nebulizer. If I didn't and ran her again she would bleed. But the pad's between her shoes sure helped her. Wish their effectivness was more generalized.
I also agree with your vets cough assumption.
What are antivibes? I have a gelding that bled last year and I'm starting to leg him up again to run this year. Will be my first year running a bleeder so all the advice on this would be great! |
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 Expert
Posts: 2013
Location: Piedmont, OK | Yes that is typically the sign of a bleeder. I would suggest scoping. They don't always bleed out. some really bad bleeds happen without them bleeding out. |
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 Vodka for Lunch
Location: Lala Land | Elgin Vet posted this last week on their FB page... thought it was interesting. The pics are on the page.
Elgin Veterinary Hospital added 8 new photos.
May 6 at 2:32pm ·
Hi, this is Dr. Tanner
I just wanted to share a diagnostic procedure with our clients that has proven to be on of the most helpful aids in properly and accurately diagnosing bleeders in the barrel horses. I can tell you for a fact, that most of these horses go undiagnosed.
It seems that more and more I get a client come in with a horse that is either dropped off in performance, started fighting the alley, getting fractious pre performance or just not clocking! These horses are sound, not coughing after running, no blood in the nostrils and most often SCOPE CLEAN!
The procedure is called a bronchioalveolar lavage, or commonly a BAL. It is a quick painless procedure that can be done in minutes. The horse is sedated and a tube is passed into the lung. A small amount of fluid is placed through the tube, into the lung and then aspirated out. The fluid is spun down and sent to the lab. This methods picks up the horses that are not obviously bleeding. The goal is to determine why they are bleeding, as many of them can be treated so that the bleeding can be prevented or more easily controlled.
Below is the actual procedure followed by what was revealed in the test fluid. This was a 12 yr old barrel mare. No history of bleeding, no coughing and scoped clean in the trachea. The complaint was slight weight loss and most importantly a drop off in performance. She, was obviously bleeding, but more importantly diagnosed with an inflammed airway. The mare was treated for the condition and is a new mare. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 494
| Question -- SO I have read different places that if they bleed out of 1 nostril it is most likely allergen related or trauma/broken vessel to that nostril since the nasal cavity of a horse has nothing that "divides" the nasal cavity to seperate the blood from coming up the lungs to only 1 nostril. Therefore a true EIPH should come from both? |
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 Elite Veteran
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Location: Alberta, Canada | epoh - 2016-05-11 9:52 AM
Question -- SO I have read different places that if they bleed out of 1 nostril it is most likely allergen related or trauma/broken vessel to that nostril since the nasal cavity of a horse has nothing that "divides" the nasal cavity to seperate the blood from coming up the lungs to only 1 nostril. Therefore a true EIPH should come from both?
My mare has bad allergies and is a bleeder. She has only bled out a few times but if I don't follow specific pre race protocol (she CANNOT have lasix due to immune issues), she will cough after a run. The last time she bled I had a conversation with my vet because she had bled out of one nostril immediately and then when we got home several hours later, she had been bleeding from the other nostril. A horse from the area recently passed away from a gutteral ouch infection so I was paranoid.
My vet told me that when they bleed from both nostrils it is EIPH. If they only bleed from one it can be much more serious, generally an infection of some sort. |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | Lovin Life - 2016-05-11 11:24 AM Elgin Vet posted this last week on their FB page... thought it was interesting. The pics are on the page. Elgin Veterinary Hospital added 8 new photos. May 6 at 2:32pm · Hi, this is Dr. Tanner I just wanted to share a diagnostic procedure with our clients that has proven to be on of the most helpful aids in properly and accurately diagnosing bleeders in the barrel horses. I can tell you for a fact, that most of these horses go undiagnosed. It seems that more and more I get a client come in with a horse that is either dropped off in performance, started fighting the alley, getting fractious pre performance or just not clocking! These horses are sound, not coughing after running, no blood in the nostrils and most often SCOPE CLEAN! The procedure is called a bronchioalveolar lavage, or commonly a BAL. It is a quick painless procedure that can be done in minutes. The horse is sedated and a tube is passed into the lung. A small amount of fluid is placed through the tube, into the lung and then aspirated out. The fluid is spun down and sent to the lab. This methods picks up the horses that are not obviously bleeding. The goal is to determine why they are bleeding, as many of them can be treated so that the bleeding can be prevented or more easily controlled. Below is the actual procedure followed by what was revealed in the test fluid. This was a 12 yr old barrel mare. No history of bleeding, no coughing and scoped clean in the trachea. The complaint was slight weight loss and most importantly a drop off in performance. She, was obviously bleeding, but more importantly diagnosed with an inflammed airway. The mare was treated for the condition and is a new mare.
Glad you've posted this. From one of the most respected sport/barrel horse vets in the country. I can't tell you how many folks, including vets that a definitive diagnosis is via BAL NOT a scope! |
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Posts: 899
| jschipper - 2016-05-11 12:06 PM
epoh - 2016-05-11 9:52 AM
Question -- SO I have read different places that if they bleed out of 1 nostril it is most likely allergen related or trauma/broken vessel to that nostril since the nasal cavity of a horse has nothing that "divides" the nasal cavity to seperate the blood from coming up the lungs to only 1 nostril. Therefore a true EIPH should come from both?
My mare has bad allergies and is a bleeder. She has only bled out a few times but if I don't follow specific pre race protocol (she CANNOT have lasix due to immune issues ), she will cough after a run. The last time she bled I had a conversation with my vet because she had bled out of one nostril immediately and then when we got home several hours later, she had been bleeding from the other nostril. A horse from the area recently passed away from a gutteral ouch infection so I was paranoid.
My vet told me that when they bleed from both nostrils it is EIPH. If they only bleed from one it can be much more serious, generally an infection of some sort.
That's very interesting about them bleeding only from 1 nostril. My gelding has done that twice a year apart. Only at the same arena,when he has been in numerous other arenas,in between these 2 times. My vet just said he was a bleeder and to run him on Lasix. Would the BAL test rule that out? |
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Location: Bandera, TX | merdth6 - 2016-05-11 9:22 AM
uno-dos-tres! - 2016-05-11 1:18 AM merdth6 - 2016-05-10 4:42 PM When they run there is more pressure in their chest from rating, turning, and run full blast again. It's way different than in the pasture. My vet said if they cough after a run, then they bled. Even if you don't see it. I like the way you said this! Great point. I used antivibes on a mare I was running a few years ago it took care of her sporatic bleeding along with keeping her lungs clear. I had to be diligent in my next day care of her airways with the nebulizer. If I didn't and ran her again she would bleed. But the pad's between her shoes sure helped her. Wish their effectivness was more generalized.
I also agree with your vets cough assumption.
Designed like the sole of a jogging shoe, ShockTamer dual-density hoof pads are an effective aid in treating sore feet or relieving lameness and can serve as a prevenative measure against future hoof and leg problems. The softer gray polyurethane is the shock absorber while the harder black frame provides support and is the shock dissipater. Gives improved performance and less fatigue on performance horses. Available flat or rim. Fits up to a size 2
We were running mainly outdoor and on hard ground. Her front feet were stinging her and she ran better with the shock tamers plus she didn't appear to be bleeding. |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | http://www.tufts.edu/~ahoffm01/SAIDwizard/bal_technique.htm
This is why a BAL is so needed. These airway issues are complex and need to be handled properly. Diagnosis is paramount. Then proper treatment. |
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 Did I miss the party?
Posts: 3864
| epoh - 2016-05-11 9:52 AM Question -- SO I have read different places that if they bleed out of 1 nostril it is most likely allergen related or trauma/broken vessel to that nostril since the nasal cavity of a horse has nothing that "divides" the nasal cavity to seperate the blood from coming up the lungs to only 1 nostril. Therefore a true EIPH should come from both?
I haven't found this to be an accurate way to truly diagnose EIPH vs. an allergy related bleed. I have had quite a few bleeders, one very bad. I did every test on her including BAL (which did find inflammation that we got to the bottom of). I even had her tested on a treadmill with an endoscope. Anyhow, until we got the bleeding under control, she would show varying degrees of symptoms. From just a cough, to one nostril bleed, to both nostrils. So again no, I wouldn't say this holds true completely in my experiences. |
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | I'm no vet but I've had the worst luck with owning bleeders, the last two really good open horses I've had were both bad bleeders, I've had a couple others as well and one thing I've noticed about all of them was that they all had bad allergies in common.
I Also believe that whether they bleed out of one nostril or both doesn't make a dang difference, a bleeder is a bleeder no matter which nostril it comes out of, just be thankful that they bled out and you now know that you need to treat them for bleeding.
Bleeding is caused from the pressure and fluids that build up in their lungs and when the pressure gets to high the capillaries burst and they bleed. They will generally have a gargaly cough after a run, some won't bleed out unless you let them put their head down to graze, thus why a lot of people don't see it until later. I would recommend antibiotics because the left over blood in the lungs can cause an infection, it can also cause scar tissue in the lungs that may compromise your horses breathing if you they continue to bleed over and over.
So many horses, like stated above go undiagnosed or ignored. Best thing to do is scope or the bal testing, I know at the Florida state show there is usually a vet that does very inexpensive testing for bleeders.
Once a bleeder is diagnosed there are a lot of things that you can do to help improve lung function, but I am a firm belibeer that nothing out there will prevent bleeding except lasix and a very very good exercise program.
Just my opinion |
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Location: South MS | Misschick77 - 2016-05-10 2:57 PM My horse will cough about 4 times after making a run. He only does this in the arena, when he is running in the pasture or breezing and long trotting which is a lot more exercise than making a run, he doesn't cough. I ran him just recently in a big outdoor arena that was not dusty at all and he coughed several times. I know he has some seasonal allergies, but could he be a bleeder if he only coughs after running barrels, and not in the field?
My bleeder gelding doesn't cough. He doesn't bleed immediately either.
30 minutes after he runs I let him graze with halter for a bit and then he will bleed out if it's going to happen. He doesn't bleed out standing at trailer. He doesn't sneeze.
Best bet is to run him at arena and then load up and go to vet immediately for scope.
If mine bleeds I give him 14 days off from riding then spend 3-4 weeks legging back up. I do antibiotics as well.
I manage mine very careful and don't have many bleed outs anymore. Lasix, Kentucky red, and air power.
Edited by Lmichaels 2016-05-28 10:13 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 964
Location: Alberta, Canada | express52 - 2016-05-11 4:42 PM
jschipper - 2016-05-11 12:06 PM
epoh - 2016-05-11 9:52 AM
Question -- SO I have read different places that if they bleed out of 1 nostril it is most likely allergen related or trauma/broken vessel to that nostril since the nasal cavity of a horse has nothing that "divides" the nasal cavity to seperate the blood from coming up the lungs to only 1 nostril. Therefore a true EIPH should come from both?
My mare has bad allergies and is a bleeder. She has only bled out a few times but if I don't follow specific pre race protocol (she CANNOT have lasix due to immune issues ), she will cough after a run. The last time she bled I had a conversation with my vet because she had bled out of one nostril immediately and then when we got home several hours later, she had been bleeding from the other nostril. A horse from the area recently passed away from a gutteral ouch infection so I was paranoid.
My vet told me that when they bleed from both nostrils it is EIPH. If they only bleed from one it can be much more serious, generally an infection of some sort.
That's very interesting about them bleeding only from 1 nostril. My gelding has done that twice a year apart. Only at the same arena,when he has been in numerous other arenas,in between these 2 times. My vet just said he was a bleeder and to run him on Lasix. Would the BAL test rule that out?
The BAL would tell you if he is indeed a bleeder as well as everything else you could possibly imagine about their lung health yes :) |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
| Thanks for that reply!!! |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 890
| Misschick77 - 2016-05-10 2:57 PM
My horse will cough about 4 times after making a run. He only does this in the arena, when he is running in the pasture or breezing and long trotting which is a lot more exercise than making a run, he doesn't cough. I ran him just recently in a big outdoor arena that was not dusty at all and he coughed several times. I know he has some seasonal allergies, but could he be a bleeder if he only coughs after running barrels, and not in the field?
PLEASE have your horse scoped right after his run. There are vets at big shows that will be happy to scope your horse. Just explain to the vet before your run that you would like him scoped & why. Vet will wait on you while you run & un tack your horse. I have a mare who futuritied . She would cough after her run. Her trainer /rider never told me to have her scoped AFTER her run, just to have her scoped at my convienence. WRONG ! I had her scoped, nothing showed up. Why, because she was a deep lung bleeder & bleeding won't show up a few days later. So the mare was continued to be ran & we thought it was allergies. After her fut year I ran her, but she got so strong & kinda hard for me to ride, so I just figured she needed a break & I gave her one. Actually her strongness was because she couldn't breath & it scared her, but she had so much heart & loves to run barrels so she ran anyway & did her best. After a few years off, I legged her back up & had her ran again. She was winning & doing great, but started coughing. Then she coughed up blood clots. Yes I put her on Lasix's & she quit coughing, but her times weren't what they should be for her ability. My conclusion, she has lung damage from not knowing she was a bleeder & continuing to run her. I didn't know about bleeders when she fut " I was new to the fut world" & I won't denie I am furious with the trainer who rode her as he should of said, Mary , get her scoped NOW. There was always great vets on the ground at every fut she went to. She is retired now which breaks my heart as she loves to run barrels, but she will have wonderful baby's. Moral of my long story " sorry it was so long" have your horse scoped right after your run him. Do not wait. I feel like a bad owner for what I didn't do for my mare. |
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 Miss Positive
Posts: 3554
Location: Crowder, OK | every time a horse is ran & it bleeds there is a chance of lung tissue scarring. Once that happens, it is permanent damage. Lung capacity u don't get back. This is why it is so important to take immediate action if u suspect your horse has bled. Get a scope & get cultures to see why the horse bled. Then u will no what options you have. Lasix is NOT a bad & horrible thing like so many people scream. Even though I have my horses allergies under control, I still would never chance running him w/o his lasix. Lung scarring is by far way worse than the side effects of lasix. As long as the horse drinks aftr & you give some extra electrolytes, there is nothing scary about lasix. Fyi, I have personally seen a horse that was a solid 2d horse end up being no faster than a 4d/5d horse later n it's career due to the new owners NOT giving lasix like they were told to when they bought the horse. They never saw blood so assumed he wasn't bleeding. His lungs are now so scarred, he has no more lung capacity & it ruined the horses career. It's a sad fact. Bleeders r not that hard to deal with.
Edited by Tinkerbell 2016-05-29 11:21 AM
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