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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| Alright crew, strange question for ya'll!  I recently started working with a mare who was started late, so needless to say, she's stubborn and likes to do things on her own accord. She is extremely athletic and a friend has worked extensively with her and she clocks great, but started getting a little wild and losing the "basics" so now we're just doing slow work. I have only ridden her a handful of times before this but now that she is my new "project" I am determined to do something with her and find out why she has some quirks or what's going on. She is getting her teeth looked at on Thursday by one of the best equine dentists in the area and it will be interesting to see what she finds, as this mare has only had her teeth lightly floated once her whole life and it was only by a vet.
So anyway, recently when I have been riding her, I just use a plain snaffle or sidepull and a very, very loose rein and mostly just walking and bending and flexing to get her light again. She used to pull on the bit like crazy. I will be going along and anytime I ask her to go faster than a walk, she will violenty throw her head up like I'm stabbing her mouth or something and hurting her (yet my hands have not even touched the reins) and I have no idea why. I have also noticed her tongue turns blue sometimes yet shes not overly flexed (it usually happens when shes on a free rein and her head is up) and from what I can see while still being on her back, at the trot and lope. She does it more going to the left and it's not as soon as I ask for speed so it's not an attitude thing, it happens randomly. She is a stargazer majorly (we call her the giraffe) but I'm not sure if it's from her stubborn personality or because it's more comfortable to keep her head up? She will throw her head up with a hackamore too as that is what I tried tonight and it is worse if I try to use draw reins but they do help so she doesn't throw her head too high. It's not from the bit so I can rule out too much pressure as I free loped her with the reins on her neck and about the third lap around she freaks out again as well as with the hackamore. And it's not from a rolkur type action as she is not that collected but maybe her anatomy is doing it to her? She has had a cough recently but it's not with exercise, I only notice it when she is standing in the pasture and eating and all of a sudden has these huge deep coughs like she's trying to get something up. It's never been with exercise and not gotten any worse so not something we were worried about treating.
If the dentist can't find anything wrong with her teeth that would cause her to react so weirdly or that would affect her tongue, where do I go next and how do I test/treat it?! Her sister is built a lot different than her but does struggle to breath sometimes so maybe it is something anatomically with the lines? She's so athletic and nice and has made leaps and bounds already at the walk but that won't really make a barrel horse...LOL!
All i can think so far is TMJ, poll being out, gutteral pouch, or something with a windpipe?? but I honestly have no clue and no background in any of those things. Thanks! | |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
  
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I would stop riding her untill I had her teeth done and her gone over by a good horse Vet. She sounds like shes got some pain coming from different places. So I would stop and get her checked out. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Yep, I agree with the above. After everything is done when you go back to riding I would look to either a sidepull, or a 3 piece snaffle. Alot of horses have a hard time with a 2 piece snaffle as it has a tendency to hit the roof of their mouth. A 3 piece lays alot smoother. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| Thanks! This is only my 3rd ride on her but it's glaringly obvious she's trying to tell me something so I don't have plans to ride her until after her dental appointment :) I have her in a sidepull or 3 piece snaffle with a roller and she does great, just randomly spazz's! From everything I have read, or when people post about their horse's with TMJ problems, I figured that was it but the new tongue turning blue has me stumped. I talked to the friend that rode her the beginning of the year and he thought maybe he noticed it a few times as well but thought maybe he was just seeing things (tongues aren't something people check so I don't blame him haha!) but he never had a problem with her throwing her head or anything of the sort. Can't wait to find out what's wrong! | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Scope her, could be a lung infection, a flapper problem, coughing doesn't have to happen when you ride to be serious.
Also I would get chiro and massage to work on her, she may need some ligmments released, had this done with one who went from a high headed horse to a pleasure horse. | |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | With her tongue turning blue I would get her heart checked out too when you take her to the Vet, sounds like it could be a heart problem also with her coughing sounds like shes lacking oxygen.. | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| I had a mare that refused to give her chin and eventually suspected of PSSM. She changed quite a bit from a simple change in feed.
As to the tongue turning blue, I sure don't think that is attitude. You might consider getting her scoped as well to rule out any scar tissue or anything else that might be restricting her air.
Good luck, especially for her sake. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| How do you see her tounge to notice it was turning blue? Is it normally pink? | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| Thanks for all the suggestions, I just wanted a basis on what to go after when she gets looked at as I honestly had no idea where to start! The friend had mentioned it to me and with her being so weird lately, I looked down and noticed she was sticking her tongue out a lot more and almost playing with it and that's when I noticed it would occasionally turn darker as it is usually very pink. I tend to be a worry wort and look for any weird things that animals do, some call me crazy but they can't communicate with us so I might as well be in tune to what they are trying to say! :) And as for PSSM I actually do suspect her as I have a type 2 mare, so we are slowly transitioning over to try some different feed and supplements (I suspect her P2 as well). Dentist Thursday, chiro out shortly after that, and we'll go from there! | |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | I HOPE YOU GET SOME ANSWERS. HOWEVER, IF YOU DON'T PLEASE GET A SKULL X-RAY THEN THE SCOPE TO FOLLOW. I'VE SEEN SOME NASTY THINGS OCCUR UNLESS THE VET GOES REAL SLOW ON THE ADVANCEMENT WHEN SCOPING. LESION'S CAN BLEED LIKE A SOG | |
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| cheeka77 - 2016-10-25 10:11 PM
Thanks! This is only my 3rd ride on her but it's glaringly obvious she's trying to tell me something so I don't have plans to ride her until after her dental appointment :) I have her in a sidepull or 3 piece snaffle with a roller and she does great, just randomly spazz's! From everything I have read, or when people post about their horse's with TMJ problems, I figured that was it but the new tongue turning blue has me stumped. I talked to the friend that rode her the beginning of the year and he thought maybe he noticed it a few times as well but thought maybe he was just seeing things (tongues aren't something people check so I don't blame him haha!) but he never had a problem with her throwing her head or anything of the sort. Can't wait to find out what's wrong!
You have me totally confused ...
your first post sounds like you have been working with this mare for several months and then you say you have only rode her 3 times and have tried a hackamore, sidepull and a 3 piece snaffle roller all happening in only three rides.
So .. how old is this mare and you say she was started late which means .. breaking? or barrel patterns? at what age??
I have one rule when buying or training a horse that seems to work well in the bit they are wearing when I first see them. The entire headstall and bit setup comes with the horse or you can keep the horse!! I am not going to waste my time looking for a bit fit when that problem has already been solved.
Spend some time pasture or trail riding this mare on rides 4-6 hours at a time .. and find out how she is when tired and gives her time to get used to a certain bit instead of soring her mouth or bumping her nose with a hackamore (I hope you are not calling a combo a hackamore) ... in both instances they will sling their heads ...
Purple tongue and hanging out of mouth and slings her head ... mare is getting her tongue over the bit is the first thing I would look at ... 2nd thing is wolf teeth and points way back in her back teeth ...... OR a pinchy bit in the corner lips
Get out of the arena // pen and stop aggravating and nagging this mare .. go give her some pleasure riding workouts 2-3 times a week!!
Any bit with a roller on it is asking for a tongue hanging out and lots of mouth action once they figure out they can play with the roller ... and they will work their tongue over the top ... people with Arabians love these rollers for their high headed horses zinging them like crazy ... so go to Clinton Anderson's store and spend $45 on his offset snaffle bit with a 3/8" bit 5 inch smooth mouth with copper bars and you will find a totally different reaction to a bit ... it is a true snaffle from my old bit maker and you will need to learn how to lift up on each rein and working each side of their face instead of pulling on the bit ... and firm up you hands and stop letting this green horse take the bit away from you ..
When bitting up a horse ... let them wear the bit in their stalls or tied up on their days off while you work around the barn ... stall cleaning or whatever ... this gives a tender mouthed or unbroke horse a chance to get used to a bit.
Coughing in pasture could be teeth and she is not chewing but balling her grass and then trying to swallow or simply dust up a nostril ... worst case would be a lazy flapper.
Cancel your chiro .. until you work with the mare per the above and see if it fixes things ... loading up with too many fixes on top of each other never identifies your problem ...
As far as the guy that rode her before ... per your data ... will never admit the horse left his barn with problems or wasn't rode enough to solve her problems .. this is typical conversation you hear from previous owners or trainers ... lol
Find you a state park equestrian trail and go for a 15 mile ride with a couple of friends or join up with other people at the park and tagalong and find out how a tired horse works while having some fun goofing around ..
GOOD LUCK
Edited by BARRELHORSE USA 2016-10-26 9:39 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| BARRELHORSE USA - 2016-10-26 9:36 PM cheeka77 - 2016-10-25 10:11 PM Thanks! This is only my 3rd ride on her but it's glaringly obvious she's trying to tell me something so I don't have plans to ride her until after her dental appointment :) I have her in a sidepull or 3 piece snaffle with a roller and she does great, just randomly spazz's! From everything I have read, or when people post about their horse's with TMJ problems, I figured that was it but the new tongue turning blue has me stumped. I talked to the friend that rode her the beginning of the year and he thought maybe he noticed it a few times as well but thought maybe he was just seeing things (tongues aren't something people check so I don't blame him haha!) but he never had a problem with her throwing her head or anything of the sort. Can't wait to find out what's wrong! You have me totally confused ... your first post sounds like you have been working with this mare for several months and then you say you have only rode her 3 times and have tried a hackamore, sidepull and a 3 piece snaffle roller all happening in only three rides. So .. how old is this mare and you say she was started late which means .. breaking? or barrel patterns? at what age?? I have one rule when buying or training a horse that seems to work well in the bit they are wearing when I first see them. The entire headstall and bit setup comes with the horse or you can keep the horse!! I am not going to waste my time looking for a bit fit when that problem has already been solved. Spend some time pasture or trail riding this mare on rides 4-6 hours at a time .. and find out how she is when tired and gives her time to get used to a certain bit instead of soring her mouth or bumping her nose with a hackamore (I hope you are not calling a combo a hackamore ) ... in both instances they will sling their heads ... Purple tongue and hanging out of mouth and slings her head ... mare is getting her tongue over the bit is the first thing I would look at ... 2nd thing is wolf teeth and points way back in her back teeth ...... OR a pinchy bit in the corner lips Get out of the arena // pen and stop aggravating and nagging this mare .. go give her some pleasure riding workouts 2-3 times a week!! Any bit with a roller on it is asking for a tongue hanging out and lots of mouth action once they figure out they can play with the roller ... and they will work their tongue over the top ... people with Arabians love these rollers for their high headed horses zinging them like crazy ... so go to Clinton Anderson's store and spend $45 on his offset snaffle bit with a 3/8" bit 5 inch smooth mouth with copper bars and you will find a totally different reaction to a bit ... it is a true snaffle from my old bit maker and you will need to learn how to lift up on each rein and working each side of their face instead of pulling on the bit ... and firm up you hands and stop letting this green horse take the bit away from you .. When bitting up a horse ... let them wear the bit in their stalls or tied up on their days off while you work around the barn ... stall cleaning or whatever ... this gives a tender mouthed or unbroke horse a chance to get used to a bit. Coughing in pasture could be teeth and she is not chewing but balling her grass and then trying to swallow or simply dust up a nostril ... worst case would be a lazy flapper. Cancel your chiro .. until you work with the mare per the above and see if it fixes things ... loading up with too many fixes on top of each other never identifies your problem ... As far as the guy that rode her before ... per your data ... will never admit the horse left his barn with problems or wasn't rode enough to solve her problems .. this is typical conversation you hear from previous owners or trainers ... lol Find you a state park equestrian trail and go for a 15 mile ride with a couple of friends or join up with other people at the park and tagalong and find out how a tired horse works while having some fun goofing around .. GOOD LUCK
Thank you for your input, I think you are misinterpreting a few things :) I'll be more specific, this mare is at the barn that I work at and I ride a ladies horses for her and this is one of them. She wasn't broke out until she was 7 and she is now 9. Up until now, she has been worked with by the same person since being broke out (a friend) but she has been passed along to me so while I have ridden her a few times prior, this is my first time consistently being on her back for 3/4 days in a row and getting to know her. The friend has tried many bits on her to see what she likes (over a long period of time) and works best in, and we have found it to be just a snaffle although with her acting up, I tried a few different things in case something in her mouth was causing these issues and no, it was just a vet wrapped covered Little S not a combo. This mare has been rode on more trail rides than any horse at the barn and even being rode all day, she doesn't tire, she's like a little freight engine. Tongue isn't getting over the bit and the bit is not pinching, I believe this to be a medical problem so I am just looking for ideas :) I have a great 2 piece Ed Wright snaffle she is usually rode in but like I said, I wanted to try a few different things in case something was happening that she didn't like. I have also tried the Clintion Anderson one I have (but it tends to pinch so I don't like it, and the roller snaffle on her because it has less of a nutcracker effect) and I am not new to being around this mare, just consistantly riding her and getting the feel for her.
Like I also said in my previous post, I haven't even been touching the reins, just working off of my seat because that is the issue, I can barely pick up on them without her freaking and I have very light hands as it is. I said she used to have a pulling problem but does not anymore, I pinky promise I have not been harping on her mouth, she is very broke in the bridle which is why this is such odd behavior for her :) I really appreciate the input you gave me so I hope this doesn't come off as defensive haha, but she is an aged mare and although she was broke out late, she has many, many hours of riding time and has been entered and is not a greeny new to the bit or being worked with. She had about 2 months off and then has been trail rode so I just want to get to the root issue with the purple tongue happening. Chiro is coming out for our other horses so I am going to have him look at her TMJ, dentist is on Thursday for another horse but also this one, and I have a vet coming tomorrow to ultrasound some mares so I am going to have him look at her as well :) We planned to give her the winter off to go back to the basics, take her off the pattern, and just have fun since the season is over anyway so I will definitely be trail riding her more, but she also definitely has a lot of miles logged haha! Thanks again!! | |
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