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Member
Posts: 20
| So, my horse was taught to shoulder on the pattern and she is somewhere in between aggressive and soft in the face / mouth. By that I mean that I can ride her in a halter with good response from her and I make a point to work on softening up in the face, but she can be stubborn on the pattern and will sometimes try to "run away" with the bit, but she isn't hard mouthed.
She is on the lazier side and can be sassy hence why she sometimes thinks she knows best and tries to run with the bit (this only happens at competitive barrel runs where she gets hopped up on adrenaline). She is also really ratey.
NOTE: I know that a bit will not fix her shouldering problem, I am taking this next barrel season to fix these problems that were created through training and lots of patience! I just want to find a bit that is comfortable for both my horse and I.
What would you recommend and why? If you need more information about her running style or anything just ask! | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | All the symptoms you are describing tell me your horse is sore and she is trying to tell you she's hurting. I would take her to good lameness vet, have a thorough exam, and go from there. | |
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  Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7622
  
Location: Dubach, LA | No advice, but good luck. Thanks for having patience with your mount. Bits are like underwear. Very personal. | |
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Member
Posts: 20
| No she is definitely not sore, just was taught incorrectly and wasn't previously trained well. Horse does fine in slow work and regular riding- we both just get nervous at competitions and make mistakes. Brought her to vet recently for shots and he always does a once over on the horse and there's nothing physically wrong with her. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1094
Location: Idahome | I have a gelding somewhat like this. He is a little harder mouthed than I would like, but has always been that way. I can ride and work in just about anything including a ring snaffle. When it comes time to run, he knows his job and works hard. He is not a run away, but can get a little heavy in my hands. I run him in a medium shank cervi twisted wire w/ dogbone. It works well for him and allows me to keep control when I need it or I feel he is getting too heavy in his turns. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1718
Location: Southeast Louisiana | Need more info. What bits have you currently tried and what did the horse feel like in each one? | |
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Porta Potty Pants
Posts: 2600
| I agree to take her to the vet for a thorough examination. I have a horse like you've described. Pretty pattern and does great slow work, could ride him in a halter if I was so inclined but when competition time comes he seemed to lose focus and just want to hurry up and get it done - don't care to pay attention and listen. Eventually broke down and asked my vet to do some deeper evaluations ... started with x-rays ... found the problem. Now I feel bad because I tried a number of things, bits, etc and he was still running and picking up checks here and there but I was frustrated because the issue remained ... yet that wasn't the entire issue. He racing heart, the lack of focus was because I was asking him to run when it hurt. He would pass the basic evaluation by the vet. It was an expensive day but I would have spent alot less money overall if I'd taken the time to ask my vet to dig deeper before I started trying new bits, tack, calming supplements, etc. She might be in pain or possibly bleeding internally.
Edited by azsun 2016-11-10 12:23 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 883
Location: Southern Indiana | Work at home in a draw gag or no hit bit then run in a Kathy James or a cervi w/dog bone twisted wire.
Working at home with a draw gag helps to soften one up in the body and get them more responsive when used appropriately of course. I suggest a KJ or Cervi because you will still get some lift but with the gag it won't be overly harsh. Of course idk what you are using now...may need more or less. It doesn't really matter what you run in, if you use something at home to get then soft and listening instead of gabbing the bit and cutting you off! | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
Location: Idaho | I agree. Take her to the vet, just because your vet does a 'look over' doesn't mean she is okay. Have you had her xrayed? Flexed? Ultrasounded? Teeth checked? Just beca use she is not showing lameness does not mean she is not sore somewhere. You might want to consider ulcers too.
I used to have a gelding would do just that. Amazing slow work, good practices. But under pressure to perform he would grab that bit and take a run for it, that is not a bad habit that is your horse trying to tell you something. You need to listen to her.
IF you have truly had her completely looked over with a lameness ecam and you 110% sure that she is note sore or lame anywhere.. then I'd try something a bit stronger with a twised wire so she can't grab it and run. You might have to sacrifice a couple entry fees to teach her she cannot do that. Also if she's shouldering the barrel, trying doing counter arch or instead of turning the barrel, push her past it and make her go all the way to the fence, wait till she stops, stands calmly, praise then continue on with turning the barrel. Do this to all three barrels then slow it down going home, this gets her mind on you.. and not the barrel so much.
But I'd have her get a lameness exam done for sure, before you do that. Because if she is hurting, no bit is going to help you and it will only get worse. | |
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Porta Potty Pants
Posts: 2600
| After the lameness exam, I've been known to work them the opposite barrel first so that they have to slow down and think about what they are doing. | |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | I'm a big advocate of lameness exams. Even if I do not suspect a problem, my barrel horses get a full lameness exam twice a year. When I expect them to perform for me, part of keeping them running good is to catch any subtle problems before they become a "real" problem.
Last year, I took my 4-year-old for a lameness exam. It was his first one ever and he finally just won his first 4D check at a local jackpot. He was coming along great in his training. Wasn't suspecting any problems but lo and behold we found some fluid in his right front pastern (he was LAME with flexion testing). I am very thankful we caught it early because it could have advanced into a rip or a tear of the tendon. It still took a good 6 months to resolve, but that would have still been less rehab time than if it would have gotten worse.
That's just my opinion anyway. I understand not everyone has the money to do lameness evaluations when no problems are suspecting. But I'm a big fan of PREVENTION. Rather than just reaction.
So, I would also suggest taking your horse for a full lameness exam. Just to rule out any potential problems. Also would be a good idea for a chiro to look her over. I do routine chiro appointments with my barrel horses too; 3 times a year if no problems. More often if there is a problem.
I also would like to know what bits you have tried thus far.
Also, when have her teeth been floated last?
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Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | Paige Hauf - 2016-11-10 10:43 AM No she is definitely not sore, just was taught incorrectly and wasn't previously trained well. Horse does fine in slow work and regular riding- we both just get nervous at competitions and make mistakes. Brought her to vet recently for shots and he always does a once over on the horse and there's nothing physically wrong with her.
That's not the "thorough lameness exam" I'm talking about.
Running through the bit, being extrememly ratey, shouldering barrels, being soft mouthed and lazy at home but wound up and nervous when you haul her - if it was just one of these issues it could be training, but all of them together, she is hurting.
Possibly ulcers, makes me lean more towards hocks or stifles though. You are not going to be able to identify an actual lameness, like limping, with any of these issues, but it will certainly affect her performance. When it's a hind end soreness, they'll run through the bit becaue it hurts to stop. Then they'll overcompensate the rate because it hurts less to turn the barrel at a low rate of speed than at a high rate of speed. (Also why you won't notice nearly as many problems in your slow work, and only at runs.) Shouldering actually has nothing to do with their shoulder, but their hip placement, they are throwing their hip to the outside (which automatically causes that shoulder to drop) because it hurts to get it underneath them. She's all nervous and wound up because she's anticipating the pain.
I've been in your shoes. I've made a horse work through their pain while I tried to "train" the problem out of them. Tried different bits. Different drills. You name it, I tried it. But then the horse starts running up the fence, or ducking off. Then you put a bigger bit, get more aggressive with your training. Nothing works and you want to sell that sonof***** and quit. Until someone convinces you just take him for x-rays before you give up. And you want to cry when you realize what all you put him through while he was dealing with something you could have fixed a year ago. | |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| I would take the horse off barrels and retrain. Use a light bit like Jr. Cowhorse. Get the horse good and broke where you have control of the hips and shoulders. Do lots of drills using cones and and put to use what you have taught the horse to do. Go at various speeds. Do not do rollbacks up and down the fence. If you have control of the horse, you will be amazed at how your runs will improve.
Another option, send to a trainer or..........
Go to a clinic | |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| BamaCanChaser - 2016-11-10 2:17 PM
Paige Hauf - 2016-11-10 10:43 AM No she is definitely not sore, just was taught incorrectly and wasn't previously trained well. Horse does fine in slow work and regular riding- we both just get nervous at competitions and make mistakes. Brought her to vet recently for shots and he always does a once over on the horse and there's nothing physically wrong with her.
That's not the "thorough lameness exam" I'm talking about. Running through the bit, being extrememly ratey, shouldering barrels, being soft mouthed and lazy at home but wound up and nervous when you haul her - if it was just one of these issues it could be training, but all of them together, she is hurting. Possibly ulcers, makes me lean more towards hocks or stifles though. You are not going to be able to identify an actual lameness, like limping, with any of these issues, but it will certainly affect her performance. When it's a hind end soreness, they'll run through the bit becaue it hurts to stop. Then they'll overcompensate the rate because it hurts less to turn the barrel at a low rate of speed than at a high rate of speed. (Also why you won't notice nearly as many problems in your slow work, and only at runs. ) Shouldering actually has nothing to do with their shoulder, but their hip placement, they are throwing their hip to the outside (which automatically causes that shoulder to drop ) because it hurts to get it underneath them. She's all nervous and wound up because she's anticipating the pain. I've been in your shoes. I've made a horse work through their pain while I tried to "train" the problem out of them. Tried different bits. Different drills. You name it, I tried it. But then the horse starts running up the fence, or ducking off. Then you put a bigger bit, get more aggressive with your training. Nothing works and you want to sell that sonof***** and quit. Until someone convinces you just take him for x-rays before you give up. And you want to cry when you realize what all you put him through while he was dealing with something you could have fixed a year ago.
Me too.
If mine aren't working, they go to the vet. And not the cow vet. A really good performance vet. Teeth, feet, vet, nutrition.
Then we go to work off the pattern and reestablish the basics.
The best thing I ever did is go to a three day clinic with someone who had a similar style and maintained an atmosphere where I could relax and learn. Whenever I am having trouble putting together runs, I go back in my mind to day 1 of that clinic, and that's where I usually can figure out and fix what's going wrong.
It's not that people don't have the talent or the desire to be good at running barrels, it's that they are uneducated about what they're trying to make happen. I learn stuff every time I go to the vet with a horse, and I learn something everytime I get on my horse. Keep an open mind no matter what!
I've recently been embarrassed by my gelding. I was riding him in a big lifter bit because those bits are what I like the best. He just kind of plateaued in his times. I kept trying to this and that. I went on a wild hare and stuck a little bitty chain gag in his mouth. He kicked it up a notch, a full half second notch. Just keep in mind that you might not always need a bigger bit, and just because you like it, and it fits your style, doesn't mean that your horse likes it. | |
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Member
Posts: 20
| Nita - 2016-11-10 12:09 PM
Need more info. What bits have you currently tried and what did the horse feel like in each one?
I have currently tried a Bit that is similar to the Martha Josey 3 way combination but but it was shorter shanked, she resisted that one quite a bit- it didn't even fit her muzzle well. After that I tried a Sherri Cervi limited gag and she did good in it for the most part but I feels like it made he right a little stiff. Then I tried a knockoff Jr. Cowhorse because I heard a lot of people liked them but she didn't like it at all, she didn't do anything major that I can explain I could just feel that she didn't really click with that bit- I got it for $5 though so that's what I get I guess. I also tried a Fallon Taylor but that's no longer sold on their website, it was a dog one wrapped in copper with quite a bit of gag, about the same weight as a Sherri Cervi bit but it had a longer shank and she didn't like that one either. She almost acts more stiff in a harsher bit and relaxes when I ride in an O ring but I feel like I'll need something with a little more control in competition. | |
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Member
Posts: 20
| I usually just work her in an O ring! | |
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Member
Posts: 20
| r_beau - 2016-11-10 1:50 PM
I'm a big advocate of lameness exams. Even if I do not suspect a problem, my barrel horses get a full lameness exam twice a year. When I expect them to perform for me, part of keeping them running good is to catch any subtle problems before they become a "real" problem.
Last year, I took my 4-year-old for a lameness exam. It was his first one ever and he finally just won his first 4D check at a local jackpot. He was coming along great in his training. Wasn't suspecting any problems but lo and behold we found some fluid in his right front pastern (he was LAME with flexion testing). I am very thankful we caught it early because it could have advanced into a rip or a tear of the tendon. It still took a good 6 months to resolve, but that would have still been less rehab time than if it would have gotten worse.
That's just my opinion anyway. I understand not everyone has the money to do lameness evaluations when no problems are suspecting. But I'm a big fan of PREVENTION. Rather than just reaction.
So, I would also suggest taking your horse for a full lameness exam. Just to rule out any potential problems. Also would be a good idea for a chiro to look her over. I do routine chiro appointments with my barrel horses too; 3 times a year if no problems. More often if there is a problem.
I also would like to know what bits you have tried thus far.
Also, when have her teeth been floated last?
No one around my area who specializes in lameness exams. My text was taken way out of context. She doesn't grab the bit and run every time we compete, she's only done it twice, once was in poles where she didn't know what to do and thought she was just supposed to run. The other on the barrel pattern was on a cold, windy, stormy day where every horse was going crazy. I put that in there to mainly say I'd want something with more control than an S-hack but not on the really harsh side either.
And I'm probably going to get blasted for this but I don't believe in chiropractors, a good massage yes, but not chiropractic. | |
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Member
Posts: 20
| classicpotatochip - 2016-11-10 3:06 PM
BamaCanChaser - 2016-11-10 2:17 PM
Paige Hauf - 2016-11-10 10:43 AM No she is definitely not sore, just was taught incorrectly and wasn't previously trained well. Horse does fine in slow work and regular riding- we both just get nervous at competitions and make mistakes. Brought her to vet recently for shots and he always does a once over on the horse and there's nothing physically wrong with her.
That's not the "thorough lameness exam" I'm talking about. Running through the bit, being extrememly ratey, shouldering barrels, being soft mouthed and lazy at home but wound up and nervous when you haul her - if it was just one of these issues it could be training, but all of them together, she is hurting. Possibly ulcers, makes me lean more towards hocks or stifles though. You are not going to be able to identify an actual lameness, like limping, with any of these issues, but it will certainly affect her performance. When it's a hind end soreness, they'll run through the bit becaue it hurts to stop. Then they'll overcompensate the rate because it hurts less to turn the barrel at a low rate of speed than at a high rate of speed. (Also why you won't notice nearly as many problems in your slow work, and only at runs. ) Shouldering actually has nothing to do with their shoulder, but their hip placement, they are throwing their hip to the outside (which automatically causes that shoulder to drop ) because it hurts to get it underneath them. She's all nervous and wound up because she's anticipating the pain. I've been in your shoes. I've made a horse work through their pain while I tried to "train" the problem out of them. Tried different bits. Different drills. You name it, I tried it. But then the horse starts running up the fence, or ducking off. Then you put a bigger bit, get more aggressive with your training. Nothing works and you want to sell that sonof***** and quit. Until someone convinces you just take him for x-rays before you give up. And you want to cry when you realize what all you put him through while he was dealing with something you could have fixed a year ago.
Me too.
If mine aren't working, they go to the vet. And not the cow vet. A really good performance vet. Teeth, feet, vet, nutrition.
Then we go to work off the pattern and reestablish the basics.
The best thing I ever did is go to a three day clinic with someone who had a similar style and maintained an atmosphere where I could relax and learn. Whenever I am having trouble putting together runs, I go back in my mind to day 1 of that clinic, and that's where I usually can figure out and fix what's going wrong.
It's not that people don't have the talent or the desire to be good at running barrels, it's that they are uneducated about what they're trying to make happen. I learn stuff every time I go to the vet with a horse, and I learn something everytime I get on my horse. Keep an open mind no matter what!
I've recently been embarrassed by my gelding. I was riding him in a big lifter bit because those bits are what I like the best. He just kind of plateaued in his times. I kept trying to this and that. I went on a wild hare and stuck a little bitty chain gag in his mouth. He kicked it up a notch, a full half second notch. Just keep in mind that you might not always need a bigger bit, and just because you like it, and it fits your style, doesn't mean that your horse likes it.
Nope, never said I wanted a bigger bit, trying to relay the fact that I want to stay away from bigger bits because they make me uncomfortable and I personally don't like riding horses in them in case I make mistakes with my hands! | |
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Member
Posts: 20
| streakysox - 2016-11-10 2:50 PM
I would take the horse off barrels and retrain. Use a light bit like Jr. Cowhorse. Get the horse good and broke where you have control of the hips and shoulders. Do lots of drills using cones and and put to use what you have taught the horse to do. Go at various speeds. Do not do rollbacks up and down the fence. If you have control of the horse, you will be amazed at how your runs will improve.
Another option, send to a trainer or..........
Go to a clinic
Yeah I'm going to do a small jackpot series and slow it down there, like exhibition runs. But other than that I am planning to solely work on training, thank you! | |
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Member
Posts: 20
| BamaCanChaser - 2016-11-10 2:17 PM
Paige Hauf - 2016-11-10 10:43 AM No she is definitely not sore, just was taught incorrectly and wasn't previously trained well. Horse does fine in slow work and regular riding- we both just get nervous at competitions and make mistakes. Brought her to vet recently for shots and he always does a once over on the horse and there's nothing physically wrong with her.
That's not the "thorough lameness exam" I'm talking about. Running through the bit, being extrememly ratey, shouldering barrels, being soft mouthed and lazy at home but wound up and nervous when you haul her - if it was just one of these issues it could be training, but all of them together, she is hurting. Possibly ulcers, makes me lean more towards hocks or stifles though. You are not going to be able to identify an actual lameness, like limping, with any of these issues, but it will certainly affect her performance. When it's a hind end soreness, they'll run through the bit becaue it hurts to stop. Then they'll overcompensate the rate because it hurts less to turn the barrel at a low rate of speed than at a high rate of speed. (Also why you won't notice nearly as many problems in your slow work, and only at runs. ) Shouldering actually has nothing to do with their shoulder, but their hip placement, they are throwing their hip to the outside (which automatically causes that shoulder to drop ) because it hurts to get it underneath them. She's all nervous and wound up because she's anticipating the pain. I've been in your shoes. I've made a horse work through their pain while I tried to "train" the problem out of them. Tried different bits. Different drills. You name it, I tried it. But then the horse starts running up the fence, or ducking off. Then you put a bigger bit, get more aggressive with your training. Nothing works and you want to sell that sonof***** and quit. Until someone convinces you just take him for x-rays before you give up. And you want to cry when you realize what all you put him through while he was dealing with something you could have fixed a year ago.
I know you are trying to help and I appreciate it! But I don't mean she shoulders and stuff in a bad way, I actually had someone watch my runs now and they said I need to work on my body position and timing because I'm confusing her. And my stirrups were apparently too high and I then lowered them about three notches and felt so Mitch more comfortable.
You don't know my vet, I don't mean once over as like he just glanced at her, he was making me lunge and walk and trot her. Didn't do x-rays because he didn't think there was any problems, and trust me, he would tell me if there's a problem.
I really should've explained it better because I didn't mean at every race she goes and runs off with the bit, she did it once on a huge pole pattern and she thought that all she had to do was run to the other end of the arena because she had never done poles and she didn't want to stop running...my fault there I shouldn't have let her run them. The other t Me was when it was a cold, windy, and stormy day and the first barrel race of the year, and all the horses were crazy.
I just wanted to get the point across that I do not want to ride her in a big strong bit, I just want a mild bit that won't inhibit her or I. Shes actually a super calm horse in general, but when I get nervous then she gets nervous. But I can't help but get nervous. And she is getting better about her rating, she just didn't know where to rate at, my fault again. I just wanted to throw that in there because she used to be big on rate.
She has always been this way, that's why I feel as if she is not lame. The lady I bought her from was very doting on this horse and basically told me my mates life story since she was a baby and her personality and attitude nor style has changed. | |
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