|
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 710
 
| I'll try to keep it short, but a few months ago I got a little gelding from the kill pens. He rides great, no major conformation flaws, someone put a lot of time in him at one point-slides, spins, lead changes he does it. He's only about 10 years old. He's very watchy but not spooky, he's definitely not a fan of men. Everything has been great except for the fact he's a violent kicker. You basically cannot pick up his hind feet because he will kick you, and he's so fast. He's gotten me twice when I didn't realize how reactive he was about it. I have a dent in my leg from multiple kicks to the thigh. I corrected him (for lack of better term for beating..) Despite all of this, he is a good horse and I like riding him and he has a good work ethic and he's pretty athletic. What exactly can I do to fix this problem? Has anyone had experiences with this? I'm getting to the point where I might just have to accept him for what he is. | |
| | |
 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
  
Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | We rope our horses feet. A lot. Not only does it make their feet easier to handle, but it also teaches them to not panic if they ever get their feet hung up in something.
You could also try kicking or pawing chains. They discipline themselves everytime they do it. | |
| | |
 No Tune in a Bucket
Posts: 2935
Location: Texas | We had one that his first instinct was to kick. He was never mistreated because we raised him, his mother was bomb proof by a son of Streakin Six. He kicked my husband once and missed my head by inches once. We basically gave him away to a guy that rides alot of horses and he eventually 'cured' him. If he had stayed here, it would have been 6 ft. under.
I like the roping his feet recommendation. We might have tried that one.
| |
| | |
 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I have limited experience with correcting this dangerous problem, but I was taught to correct this very firmly and harshly. It's not for the feint of heart, but it sure seems to work well. Tie him up. Get a good lunge whip. Keep your distance but slap the ground behind him with the lunge whip, to provoke a kick. The minute he kicks, whack his ass as hard as possible. Keep doing it....eventually whacking him twice, or even three times. Keep your distance and keep provoking. He'll sweat bullets, most likely. Eventually, he will turn and face you when you approach him or try to provoke a kick. That's him saying "uncle". Eventually he will go out of his way to keep his ass from pointing in your direction. Try everything you can think of to provoke a kick, or even a threat of a kick. If he so much as cocks his hind leg, whack him. If he points hiss ass toward you whack him. Leave him tied for an hour and return. If he continues to respect you, reward him and turn him out.
Try a refresher course a day or two later.
It sounds very harsh, but like I said, it worked in my limited experience with 3 horses who were dangerous kickers. This might actually save the horse's life.....or someone else's.
Edited by Bear 2016-11-18 6:50 PM
| |
| | |
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Displining him may not be the way to go, as he may become even more reactive.
He may have decreased peripheral vision and cannot see you at his back legs.
I had a few that used to be like this,
One the farrier jumped around near her hind end like a chicken with its head cut off, once she calmed down he lifted her leg no issues.
The other the farrier put a kicking rope on him and let him fight it out. We trimmed his feet the first 4 times with the rope then took the rope off.
The newest one, I have only had for 2 weeks, she was pulled out of the kill pen, granddaughter of Flit to kill and frenchmans Guy, she is very reactive, and from the sounds of it a little broncy, so she is going to a trainer next week to see if she can become anything | |
| | |
 Loves to compete
Posts: 5760
Location: Oakdale, CA | we had a well bred cow that kicked and we tied a milk jug to her tail.....cured her.
don't think it would work on a horse. I would start roping the horse alot front feet neck and then go to back feet like a colt practicing picking up their feet with out breaking your back.......good luck thats a dangerous one really | |
| | |
Elite Veteran
Posts: 975
Location: The barn...where else? SW Missouri | KPwuvsOliver - 2016-11-18 4:27 PM
I'll try to keep it short, but a few months ago I got a little gelding from the kill pens. He rides great, no major conformation flaws, someone put a lot of time in him at one point-slides, spins, lead changes he does it. He's only about 10 years old. He's very watchy but not spooky, he's definitely not a fan of men. Everything has been great except for the fact he's a violent kicker. You basically cannot pick up his hind feet because he will kick you, and he's so fast. He's gotten me twice when I didn't realize how reactive he was about it. I have a dent in my leg from multiple kicks to the thigh. I corrected him (for lack of better term for beating..) Despite all of this, he is a good horse and I like riding him and he has a good work ethic and he's pretty athletic. What exactly can I do to fix this problem? Has anyone had experiences with this? I'm getting to the point where I might just have to accept him for what he is.
Clinton Anderson had an episode on this exact issue. He moves their feet when they react like that. Make giving his foot to you the easy route. When he kicks at you move his feet, make him work and sweat. Watch that episode if you can find it. Maybe on you tube. Found it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMdP8DAjoc8
Edited by RunNbarrels 2016-11-18 7:04 PM
| |
| | |
 IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| I completely disagree with tying the horse up and beating them. There are different methods of training in the world. One is the intimidator trainer, and the other is horsemanship.
Horses have never communicated in this way...they do not understand what being beat means. It may get a result, but there is a BETTER result out there that will result in a better horse and better training for the long term. If it were my horse I would start with groundwork. If you are not sure how to groundwork a horse for respect I would watch some YouTube videos. Within my groundwork I enforce the following expectations:
I want my horse to stand and keep his eyes on me. Anytime my horse looks away I shake the leadline. I want the horse aware of who I am and my presence. When the horse maintains eye contact I reward them with a pat on the head with the whip. From there I tap the leadrope and ask the horse to move out of my space and back. I ask with as little energy as possible to get the result I want. If I do not get the result I want fast enough I use more energy. These two basic exercises establish a boundary with your horse to work with...it is a starting point to open the door to more communication. At any given moment if the horse starts to think about kicking me I would use whatever energy I needed to to get them moving forward and away from me. Rest is only an option when they respect my space and boundaries that I have set.
So let's say I can get my horse to stand there staring at me (I want them to think of nothing else but what I am asking them to do...and it all starts with eye contact.) I can get the horse to back up easily by hitting the whip on my lungline lightly...I would then begin touching the horse all over with the whip. Again...any time the horse thinks of kicking they are asked to move forward and away. I would eventually work my way down to the legs that are an issue. As long as I am safe I would rub the whip in the spots that bother the horse the most...and I would not stop until the horse showed signs of relaxation. The more you address the behavior that is an issue the "quieter" they will become. I would eventually work my way to using a leadrope to pick up each back leg. There is no great way to explain this in words other than I put the leadrope around the leg and pull it up below the hock. This way I am not behind the horse. I am at its side and can get back and ask the horse to move forward if need be.
Horses learn and retain in levels. I do not understand why we expect horses to learn everything we want all at once and within one session in ways that they do not know how to communicate. This gets nothing done....other than a horse that does stuff out of habit. Which may get you by until you are in a situation that is life threatening. It is also what makes a lot of people "average" horse people. People that look for horses that make them look good.....
Anyways, I would continue this work as often as possible...and I would not ride the horse until this hole in the foundation is filled...otherwise with each ride you have you are simply lucky that the horse is going through the motions. I really wish I could put into more words the training I have wittnessed with horses that have been turned down by so many.....but this type of training is not undestood fully until you witness it. If you have any questions on anything PM me. I will try to help in any way I can, I am still learning, but have had the opportunity to watch several of the best trainers around work with horses that no one else wants. The groundwork/respect is where they start.
Edited to add that horses will do whatever we allow them to get away with. If you do not want your horse to kick there is a way to educate them on the behaviors you desire.
Edited by magic gunsmoke 2016-11-18 8:03 PM
| |
| | |
 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Just a question, have you ever had any farrier work done on him since you got him? | |
| | |
Elite Veteran
Posts: 710
| Yes, we use dormagel to sedate him for it. | |
| | |
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 678
Location: Canada | I would also see about his hocks being sore. A client bought a new horse and it would kick if you held her back feet but her hocks we so darn sore as soon as we had them injected she was fine. | |
| | |
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Bear - 2016-11-18 6:46 PM
I have limited experience with correcting this dangerous problem, but I was taught to correct this very firmly and harshly. It's not for the feint of heart, but it sure seems to work well. Tie him up. Get a good lunge whip. Keep your distance but slap the ground behind him with the lunge whip, to provoke a kick. The minute he kicks, whack his ass as hard as possible. Keep doing it....eventually whacking him twice, or even three times. Keep your distance and keep provoking. He'll sweat bullets, most likely. Eventually, he will turn and face you when you approach him or try to provoke a kick. That's him saying "uncle". Eventually he will go out of his way to keep his ass from pointing in your direction. Try everything you can think of to provoke a kick, or even a threat of a kick. If he so much as cocks his hind leg, whack him. If he points hiss ass toward you whack him. Leave him tied for an hour and return. If he continues to respect you, reward him and turn him out.
Try a refresher course a day or two later.
It sounds very harsh, but like I said, it worked in my limited experience with 3 horses who were dangerous kickers. This might actually save the horse's life.....or someone else's.
I disagree with this way, as it is abuse. There is a time to discipline a horse, then there is a time to work with the horse.
If the horse is a rotten down right mean horse wanting to kill me, definitely I will teach him I am boss, but they have to have an escape, tying them up and thumping on them can cause halter pulling issues, break necks, break legs, etc.
If the horse is a scared kicker, then it is back to the basics, desensitizing them. Take a plastic bag on a whip and work their hind legs, let them travel circles around you on the lead shank, make sure you do not go past their girth, hence the need for the whip. When the horse stands and licks his lips he is showing you he is becoming for comfortable with the task. Keep doing this for a week until the horse has no movement when the bag is flapping around.
When the horse is used to the bag, then graduate to a rope, toss a rope around the legs until he stands, this doesn't happen in minutes or even one day. Horses learn the most within the first 10-15 minutes of the lesson.
The next step is to loop the rope around the leg and apply pressure, you want the horse to give to the pressure, make sure you can get the rope off fast, I use a 20 foot cotton rope. The horse may jump around for awhile, start with the front legs then move to the hind ones. Start by pulling the foot forward, once he is okay with this, then you go to the next step.
The next step required a round pen, I start with the front legs again and I rope them, and have them giving to the pressure starting front pressure then I go side pressure then go behind and have them give to the pressure from behind so they back up. I repeat this with the hind leg, getting them to give to the pressure behind. As soon as they give an inch you need to release the pressure, this is a give and take.
The above comes in very handy if they ever get caught in a fence, as they have learned the basics to pressure so in theory they shouldn't spaz out and injure themselves. | |
| | |
 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Honestly, if any beast or human intentionally hurts me, they're getting on a truck headed for Mexico. I don't take a lot of bs. | |
| | |
BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | The horse described by the OP sounds extremely dangerous. I just related my own limited experience with like 3 dangerous kickers....the kind that can tear your aorta away from your heart.....an injury that I've had the misfortune of seeing in an ER, I might add.
This old horseman struck me as old school, and he showed me how he corrected the problem. There are some reputable trainers who use this technique, like Larry Trocha, for example. It was quick and effective, in my limited experience. It was also very safe....for me.
I don't want to dink around with a horse who can break my femur or rupture my liver when I try to be nicey nicey and ask for him to pick up a foot. That's just me. I know Parelli doesn't approve of this, but I like this technique, personally. | |
| | |
  Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | Question:
What is wrong with the concept of the human being in charge not the animal? Especially in the scenario where a 1200# horse can hurt One?!
For those of you who do not favor this, I submit Ya'll have never had the sh!t kicked out of you by said 1200# animal.
Well I have and it hurts like he!! and I ain't about to let happen anymore than I can control! | |
| | |
 Veteran
Posts: 287
| To the person who said that a horse doesn't understand being "beat", are you saying they don't understand another horse double barreling them with both hind feet when they step out of line? Cause correct physical discipline is pretty much the same. And I don't consider that beating them. A lead horse is not gentle not kind when they swiftly discipline another horse in the herd. It's a quick way to wind up on the bottom of the pecking order. | |
| | |
Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | wickedstepmother - 2016-11-19 1:08 PM
To the person who said that a horse doesn't understand being "beat", are you saying they don't understand another horse double barreling them with both hind feet when they step out of line? Cause correct physical discipline is pretty much the same. And I don't consider that beating them. A lead horse is not gentle not kind when they swiftly discipline another horse in the herd. It's a quick way to wind up on the bottom of the pecking order.
Obviously "some" people cannot differentiate between horse behavior and human abuse. I have seen horses gang up on horses and abuse other horses. However, this horse behavior. And I suppose it could be construed as abuse. But there is a major between abuse and breaking a life threatening habit. Again until those who disagree the strong methods listed have not had the pleasure of nursing bruises back to health in humans to include getting over limping due to bruised and banged hips that causing limping............................Sorry but "I" am in charge not the 1200# animal!
Edited by foundation horse 2016-11-19 1:24 PM
| |
| | |
A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I have a friend that lost his right eye from being kicked in the head, and I know of a little boy that was kicked in the head and there was no reason for these horses to be kicking. I would never own a horse that is a know kicker they are worthless like a horse that flips. I bet there was a reason why the op's horse was in a kill pen he may have hurt someone really bad are worst by being the kicker he is. They are just flat out dangerious to have around. Please if you have any childrent be extra careful..
Bless you OP for being someone with a heart that saved a horse out of the kill pen, but please be very careful 
Edited by Southtxponygirl 2016-11-19 1:35 PM
| |
| | |
 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-11-18 5:46 PM I have limited experience with correcting this dangerous problem, but I was taught to correct this very firmly and harshly. It's not for the feint of heart, but it sure seems to work well. Tie him up. Get a good lunge whip. Keep your distance but slap the ground behind him with the lunge whip, to provoke a kick. The minute he kicks, whack his ass as hard as possible. Keep doing it....eventually whacking him twice, or even three times. Keep your distance and keep provoking. He'll sweat bullets, most likely. Eventually, he will turn and face you when you approach him or try to provoke a kick. That's him saying "uncle". Eventually he will go out of his way to keep his ass from pointing in your direction. Try everything you can think of to provoke a kick, or even a threat of a kick. If he so much as cocks his hind leg, whack him. If he points hiss ass toward you whack him. Leave him tied for an hour and return. If he continues to respect you, reward him and turn him out. Try a refresher course a day or two later. It sounds very harsh, but like I said, it worked in my limited experience with 3 horses who were dangerous kickers. This might actually save the horse's life.....or someone else's. My grandpa was a horseman, think Tom Dorrance (I think they worked together back in the 40's).
One day when I was a little girl I sneaked into the barn and hid on the haystack while he 'trained' on a horse that was a kicker...I didn't dare utter a sound. He got IN a small stall with this horse...with a buggy whip. I thought that horse was gonna kill my grandpa! He didn't have to provoke the horse in any way, but, every time that horse turned his butt to him he tapped his hocks pretty soundly...not real hard, until he turned to him. A few times in the beginning he smacked him on the butt more forcefully and with rythym, the horse would turn and pin his ears at him like he was going to bite or strike & he'd put his arm up w/the whip in his hand and eventually that horse realized that he wasn't being hurt & that doing the right thing was much easier...there wasn't much room in that stall so there wasn't anywhere for him to 'hide'.
This went on for a long time that day...you can't stop once you start. As far as I know that was the end of the kicking
(I never did admit I'd watched! Grandpa was from the old school...women & kids had no business in the barn during the real work)
I can see that the other way would work, too. Probably safer than not tied...but...I don't know.
eta: Reading that and thinking about it more...he ceratinly DID smack that horse hard at first! As he should have. Later, the 'hock taps' weren't hard...
Edited by musikmaker 2016-11-19 1:55 PM
| |
| | |
| I would say this horse has had an owner(s) that herded their horses with stupid cattle dogs or thought it was great fun to see their dogs and horses "playing" with each other while horses were being nipped on the heels ....
You can flip a rope around a rear foot to trim and be shod ........
but you can never trust him not to brain you as you comb his tail or walk behind him or along side of him ... his surprise reflex actions are to kick the xxLL out of you ....
If your dogs are messing with your horses ..... shoot the dog(s) ...
https://youtu.be/JKlJ3kc92n0
https://youtu.be/B3kxLUofi6g
| |
| |
| |
Folks on-line