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Elite Veteran
Posts: 863
  
| Yes it's got me wondering after reading about Bling :( I cried actually when I read her post today. My question to everyone, WHAT can cause this to happen? My gosh, that horse had to have the best care and nutrition, I simply can't imagine.. I've never had to deal with tying up, (knocks on wood) but what causes this and the symptoms? My prayers are with Sara in this difficult time too |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
  
Location: Texas | Here is a good resource on all the different causes for tying up. In summary, there's sporadic and chronic forms. The sporadic forms is where a horse has no genetic deformity in their muscles and things like overwork or electrolyte imbalances during work can cause an episode of tying up. Then there's the chronic forms that are caused by some sort of deformity in the muscle.
https://cvm.msu.edu/research/faculty-research/valberg-laboratory/exe...
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | I have no idea what caused her to tie up. Most horses that do have a metabolic disorder that causes it. But, sometimes it can happen without any disorder. Mares are more susceptible and can be caused by hormonal imbalance and/or electrolyte imbalance. Most times it is not fatal, but every episode and horse is different. For kidneys to fail it was a severe event. I am not an expert here and I think it can be a pretty mysterious deal sometimes.
Edited by Tdove 2017-01-03 8:43 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 883
Location: Southern Indiana | We had a gray horse that had a tumor taken off his tail and a month later it was a warm spring day and a family member decided to take him on a trail ride. He had not been ridden in awhile. He tied up bad, never came out of and died exactly 24 hours later. It was the craziest thing I ever saw and it was such a sad deal. He had never tied up in his life and we raised him from the day he was born. He was 17.
I think any overexertion could cause one to tie up, just like your muscles cramp when you do more in one day than your use to. You just never know with horses. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | There are management issues that effect most tie up episodes. Chronic tie up can usually be managed with both nutrition and exercise routines. Tie ups that come "out of the blue" , are a different deal. Sometimes it just happens. I watched this horse run at Las Vegas this year,and it was great fun to see. I hope some answers about this horses health and history can help others avoid the same tragic result. If the problem is pssm, this shows that these horses are not for everyone. The extreme care that this horse clearly had access to still could not save her. |
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 Saint Stacey
| PSSM is a funny deal that very little is known about beyond type 1. They are now researching type 2 and 3. Type 2 is believed to have originated with Midnight and is very heavy through the Jet Seck, East Jet line. So a horse can test 5 panel clean for pssm1 and still have type 2 or 3 and most people wouldn't realize it. |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | Had a 7 year old gelding that did it once out of the blue. We think dehydration caused his. I was off him for 6 weeks. Whatever test they run to see how severe it is, his numbers were off the chart. It was really scary. He survived and never had another episode. I had moved to a new place and had a hard time getting any of my horses to drink as much as I thought they should have. I wasn't there long but think there had to be something wrong with that water. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Our mare tied up once. It was during the heat of the summer but she was being ridden in the cooler evening hours. After being unsaddled she was stiff , wobbly - acted like she was drunk. Fluids and meds from the vet and she was fine the next day. She was always a good drinker and could not figure out why she was dehydrated till the next day I looked out and saw that one of our geldings was standing guard over a new horse that was being kept in a pen, the water trough straddled that pen and the pasture, he was not letting anybody get close to the new horse which meant they could not get to the water trough. Dehydration definitely was that the trigger for her, we added a new water trough and another location after that episode.
Edited by rodeomom3 2017-01-04 8:56 AM
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 Miss Laundry Misshap
Posts: 5271
| We had a mare who was 27 tie up. We were still running her, she was in fabulous shape. It was Nov and chillier. She ran and when she was stopping she locked up. We got her home and she had come out of it. It must have done something to her kidneys though because she went downhill from there. We kept her a year after that, but she went from being 110% to an old horse in not much time, she was never rode after that episode.
We kind of figured out that she probably had a Selenium overdose. They changed the formula on the feed we were feeding and there was already selenium in her supplement. We cut the selenium out and she was "normal" and never tied up again. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I had one that didn't tie up until he was laid up for a soft tissue injury recovery. when I got back on him after his break, he tied up. Then he tied up again at a race. We never tested him for any of it because we attributed it to the lay off, but I wanted to test him at the time... but I was a kid and it wasn't up to me. If we ever have another one tie up, I'm sending hair and a muscle biopsy. We did change his diet to a low starch feed after the episodes and he didnt do it again. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 246
Location: Idaho | Ive had a horse tie-up on me three times. The first time was an 18 year old gelding we were using Lixitinic on. I ran poles on him, took him back to the trailer. When i went to get on for barrels, he could hardly move. My friend at the time, was using the same supplement had her horse tie up also. Second, was a 9 year old gelding. We had bought a new trailer which he had to back out of instead of turn around. We had a heck of time getting him out he got stuck at one point trying to turn. The trailer ride which was several hours stressed him out! He tied up and i couldnt used him the next day at the event. THIRD, was a 6 year old mare. I had been feeding her up really good with grain and supplements, she was getting worked everyday and raced on the weekend. She was in great shape. After a big event, indecided to give her a week off. She didnt get rode or and grain/supplemts. When i hopped back on, we went for a two mile ride. Lighr jogging and walking. I noticed she was sweating more than she should. It wasnt that warm and she haded been worked that hard. When we turned to come home, she locked up and couldnt move. In my case all three were caused by some different, a specfic supplement, stress, and stopping all high level exercise and feed cold turkey. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | We had a mare that was ridden pretty hard often. She tied up one hot day with not much work. From there she became a chronic case and each time more damage was done and it became more frequent. Chronic cases are pretty bad and not always manageable.
We also had a stallion that tied up twice within a month of each other. Being exercised regular, nothing abnormal. The second time we analyzed thoroughly and the ONLY thing that was present in both cases was he had bred a mare the same day. Vets said we were crazy, but we stopped riding and breeding on the same day and it stopped and never returned (you can't convince me that wasn't a key factor). Everything else stayed the same as before.
I do know that the best way to test for the disorders is if the horse ties up, you have to take a muscle biopsy right then and send it off (after recovery is too late). We did that with both cases above. Neither had PSSM. The mare was diagnosed with RER and the stallion nothing.
Edited by Tdove 2017-01-04 8:56 AM
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 Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
Location: Four Corners Colorado | Correct me if I'm wrong but now they have a hair test for PSSM2 & 3.
http://equiseq.com/buy_pssm2.php
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | from my understanding it can be from an electrolyte imbalance or overexertion. Usually nutrition and exercise are key to preventing it from happening. My mare recently tied up for the first time last month. I think hers was an electrolyte imbalance. I have kept her on THElectrolyte syringe every day since the episode, just to be safe. I have owned her for 6 years and never had it happen before. But it took her a week to fully recover. |
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 Star Padded Honey
Posts: 8890
Location: NW MT |
actually no. I was confused on this also. The only way to test for PSSM2 is by muscle biopsy. What they are testing now with hair samples are P2 & P3 - which are also very confusing. This is how it was explained to me: "What they are testing for are the P2 & P3 genes. These genes can cause a horse to have PSSM symptoms, like tying up and such. Think of PSSM being a pond, and the P1 (GYS 1 gene) and P2 and P3 genes as being fish in this pond. They create the pond, but are individuals within the pond. So, you could have a trout, bass, perch, or salmon in the pond, or maybe just salmon or maybe just bass or perch." |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| Rockyroad - 2017-01-04 8:18 PM actually no. I was confused on this also. The only way to test for PSSM2 is by muscle biopsy. What they are testing now with hair samples are P2 & P3 - which are also very confusing. This is how it was explained to me: "What they are testing for are the P2 & P3 genes. These genes can cause a horse to have PSSM symptoms, like tying up and such. Think of PSSM being a pond, and the P1 (GYS 1 gene) and P2 and P3 genes as being fish in this pond. They create the pond, but are individuals within the pond. So, you could have a trout, bass, perch, or salmon in the pond, or maybe just salmon or maybe just bass or perch."
I'm going to jump in too, what they are testing for is the genes yes, but what they don't know is why some horses are symptomatic and why some never are their whole lives. The same happens with HYPP and PSSM1 I believe. So my mare is P2 and 6yrs old and has never tied up, but she has many symptoms which lead me to test her. Through EquiSeq, I have found she carries one copy of the P2 gene meaning she got it from one parent. A muscle bioposy cannot tell you that and cannont tell you if the horse has P2, P3, P4 or P5 (yes there are different types they are finding  ) but the hair test can tell you if your horse will have a predisposition to having PSSM2or others; P2 being semidominant. It's all very confusing and unfortunately, the company is being published so they cannont share with us all the stuff they would like to and some of it is pretty big, but for the sake of research they purely can't. Exciting nonetheless though! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 520
| cheeka77 - 2017-01-05 1:49 AM
Rockyroad - 2017-01-04 8:18 PM actually no. I was confused on this also. The only way to test for PSSM2 is by muscle biopsy. What they are testing now with hair samples are P2 & P3 - which are also very confusing. This is how it was explained to me: "What they are testing for are the P2 & P3 genes. These genes can cause a horse to have PSSM symptoms, like tying up and such. Think of PSSM being a pond, and the P1 (GYS 1 gene) and P2 and P3 genes as being fish in this pond. They create the pond, but are individuals within the pond. So, you could have a trout, bass, perch, or salmon in the pond, or maybe just salmon or maybe just bass or perch.") but the hair test can tell you if your horse will have a predis position to having PSSM2or others; P2 being semidominant. It's all very confusing and unfortunately, the company is being published so they cannont share with us all the stuff they would like to and some of it is pretty big, but for the sake of research they purely can't. Exciting nonetheless though!
Equiseq is testing for the gene, not the disease state. Your horse can have P2, P3, P4 etc, but not actually have the disease state. However they can develop the disease later in their life. From what I understand from Paul P2/P2 horses are more likely to show symptoms earlier, where as n/P2 horses are more likely develop symptoms later on in life. |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | A severe episode of tying up can be pretty scary and dramatic. Usually they just stiffen up and often their muscles get rock hard....like a massive "charlie horse" throughout their body. They usually sweat buckets, and you can't get them to move. When that happens, you should just let them stand where they are, if possible.
Some people mistake tying up for colic, but if you do that and try to force them to move around, you create more muscle damage. The tipoff should be that they want to stand quiet, and if you feel their butt muscles, they will be rock hard, often times. If the episode is severe and especially if you notice their urine is dark like tea or cola, then you really need to aggressively hydrate them, at the very least.
Banamine is fine, for comfort, but it doesn't really prevent the serious complications of tying up.
Here's what I said on an earlier thread:
Such sad, shocking news. I feel bad for her.
Tying up can cause acute renal failure in severe cases of rhabdomyolysis, both in people and horses. In humans, most people can recover because renal failure is recognized and can be treated with dialysis, until the kidneys recover function, which usually happens. Dialysis has been done in horses, but not very much.
This should serve as a warning to us that we can take certain steps to lessen the chances of this happening, in severe cases of typing up. If the horse's urine looks like coca cola or tea, that's a bad case. They should have creatinine and electrolytes checked. Also, they need very aggressive hydration with balanced salt solutions like ringers or saline, and bicarbonate IV to lessen the chances of myoglobin from precipitating in the renal tubules.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 318
Location: Sapulpa, OK | Rockyroad - 2017-01-04 8:18 PM actually no. I was confused on this also. The only way to test for PSSM2 is by muscle biopsy. What they are testing now with hair samples are P2 & P3 - which are also very confusing. This is how it was explained to me: "What they are testing for are the P2 & P3 genes. These genes can cause a horse to have PSSM symptoms, like tying up and such. Think of PSSM being a pond, and the P1 (GYS 1 gene) and P2 and P3 genes as being fish in this pond. They create the pond, but are individuals within the pond. So, you could have a trout, bass, perch, or salmon in the pond, or maybe just salmon or maybe just bass or perch."
How long did you give her off before you went back to riding/competing on her? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 670
Location: Running my kids somewhere. | My main mare tied up on a regular basis. After testing we found out it was a vit E and Se problem. She was on supplements, we did regular blood tests and she regularly received vit E shots. Which she HATED!
For her it was a build up of lactic acid in her muscles. |
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