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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 460
 
| So, I have been watching lots and lots of training videos lately. I just feel like my horse and I are on a plateau right now. I feel so behind after watching these videos...I can do almost all of the drills that I have been watching...EXCEPT the counter arc. I'm very ashamed to say...I never even heard of it until recently =/ I've tried to find videos on how to perfect it, but there doesn't seem to be much out there on how to actually teach it, just how to use it in drills. Can anyone explain to me or show me how you teach and do the counter arc? Seems like such a useful tool! Thank you very much =] |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
 
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | If your horse can sidepass/2 track, it's easy to transfer to counter-arcing. All it is is they're bent in the opposite direction of travel. You can counter-arc a circle, counter-arc a turnaround... It originates with creating impulsion from the hip to get the forward motion and use your outside leg at the girth to get them wrapped around it with just a little bit of bend in the neck. A lot of people use too much rein and forget the rear impulsion. Do it in baby steps. Ask for it and reward a try after one step and build from there.
I use it to get the inside hind further underneath, and get them moving off the outside rein better when finishing a turn. I see it used to block one from cutting off the pocket, but I don't personally use it that way. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
 
| the easiest way to start teaching it is with forward movement. it's much easier on a horse to move away from the pressure while being allowed to move forward at the same time. Then you gradually put that wall in front of them.
Let your horse walk along the fence, tip his nose towards the fence, push your inside heal into him/her and guide with your outside rein. At first it's going to feel like you have to pull them over to the outside but as soon as they make the movement away from your inside heal and away from the fence you release all pressure and let them walk out. They pick up on it fast. Eventually you can pick up your inside rein and use your feet to move them to the outside. the better they get the more forward motion you stop allowing. |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | The counter arc is one of those things that is very hard to teach just with verbal or written instruction. You really have to be one on one with someone who does them properly and knows how to teach someone properly. It's like trying to teach someone how to hit a baseball. Videos can really help. Fantastic tool. |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12838
| Bear - 2017-05-16 7:23 PM
The counter arc is one of those things that is very hard to teach just with verbal or written instruction. You really have to be one on one with someone who does them properly and knows how to teach someone properly. It's like trying to teach someone how to hit a baseball. Videos can really help. Fantastic tool.
Agreed |
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 I'm Cooler Offline
Posts: 6387
Location: Pacific Northwest | I'm assuming your horse already knows how to two-track off your leg. If they can move laterally off your leg, you're pretty much already there. You just keep applying until they move their body all the way away.
This is how I teach it. I walk a figure 8, with the first circle being a "normal" arc, and then at the X of the figure 8 I push them into a reverse arc. So for example, walking a circle to the right. I have my horse shaped like I normally would, so nose is slightly tipped inside to the right.. At the X, I apply my right leg to "push" him the opposite direction, but his nose is still tipped to the right. In the beginning I might only get a few steps.The goal though is to be able to complete the figure 8, and you end up back with a "normal" arc. So walk a normal arced circle, reverse arc for the second circle, and as you're finishing that second circle you're already prepared to make another normal circle.
ETA My personal problem with asking for reverse arcs is using too much hand. It's one of the only occasions I catch myself trying to use my reins to "force" my horse to do something, especially if I haven't been working on it and they're rusty. I have to be mindful of keeping my hands light and mainly just asking for it with my legs. The more you do it, the more fluid your horse will be about it and you'll be able to reverse arc with as light a rein pressure as you would a normal arc.
Edited by livexlovexrodeo 2017-05-17 12:30 AM
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| . There is some confusion about the two track on here. A two track is using your leg a little further back by the hip to push the hip in creating the horse to arc away from the your leg as the horse moves along with his hip in. It asks a horse to move its front legs and back legs in "two different tracks" which equates to hip control. A leg yield is moving the horse off your legs by the ribs making a side passing motion while moving forward. The horse creates bend around your leg so the rib is up or bent. For a counter arc you want to progress from a leg yield since it is creating the bend you want around the leg not away from the leg like with a two track... Which again is moving the hip in creating haunches in. A counter arc is shoulder control. You should move your leg a hair forward compared to the leg yield to allow the shoulder to move away from your leg and the body to arc around your leg as you do. There are a lot of great videos on YouTube! |
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 The One
Posts: 7997
Location: South Georgia | I'll try to drastically simplify it because its the kind of thing that is really hard to explain. I lift up on the right rein (kind of up straight and over toward the center of the mane) to pick up her shoulder and tip her nose, and I put my right leg into her side so she bends around it and lifts the shoulder up higher. Same for the opposite side--left rein, left leg so she wraps and picks up that shoulder. This move is easiest on horses that are nice and bendy with lateral flexion. Also, ones that are responsive to leg pressure. If you don't have either of those mastered, that's where I'd start, but it sounds like you do.
Edited by horsegirl 2017-05-17 8:02 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 788
| I use a round pen a lot to teach them how to move first then I go to the figure 8s. With the round pen, I go on the outside of it, and tilt their nose toward the fence and let them walk around it how they normally would. Then little by little I ask for more nose and keep them moving forward at the same time. By the way, at this stage, your not really teaching a counter arc, just teaching the horse the mechanics of moving away from your hand while moving forward. The biggest thing to remember is pick your hand straight up, close to their neck, don't pull back. Before long, the horse will be kind of side passing. Once they can do that in both directions I start the figure 8s like the other poster said. Just ask for a little at a time and use your outside hand to help. Youtube or training barrel horses probably can do a better job at teaching than me lol |
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Expert
Posts: 1280
Location: Texas | I think it might help to ride a horse that counter arcs well, with instruction from the owner/trainer. Once you have a feel for what you are looking for, it is much easier to understand how to train for it. The counter arc was (and still is) difficult for me, I think, because it is counter intuitive, and frankly just the opposite of what we were taught to do 30-40 years ago. |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| livexlovexrodeo - 2017-05-17 12:23 AM
I'm assuming your horse already knows how to two-track off your leg. If they can move laterally off your leg, you're pretty much already there. You just keep applying until they move their body all the way away.
This is how I teach it. I walk a figure 8, with the first circle being a "normal" arc, and then at the X of the figure 8 I push them into a reverse arc. So for example, walking a circle to the right. I have my horse shaped like I normally would, so nose is slightly tipped inside to the right.. At the X, I apply my right leg to "push" him the opposite direction, but his nose is still tipped to the right. In the beginning I might only get a few steps.The goal though is to be able to complete the figure 8, and you end up back with a "normal" arc. So walk a normal arced circle, reverse arc for the second circle, and as you're finishing that second circle you're already prepared to make another normal circle.
ETA My personal problem with asking for reverse arcs is using too much hand. It's one of the only occasions I catch myself trying to use my reins to "force" my horse to do something, especially if I haven't been working on it and they're rusty. I have to be mindful of keeping my hands light and mainly just asking for it with my legs. The more you do it, the more fluid your horse will be about it and you'll be able to reverse arc with as light a rein pressure as you would a normal arc.
I get what you are saying here, but for me I teach them to counter bend before two tracking, and it is the way I teach one to spin eventually.
What I would add to your process is that when I reach the center of the figure 8, I lift a little more and push my hand forward a little more when asking them to counter arc, also using a lot of leg. If they resist, I bump my hand up and use the flat of my foot in the shoulder instead of forcing more "hand" as you put it. (This would be the hand asking for bend)
Also, in the very beginning I use the opposite rein a little to "lead" them into the counter bend. As Bear pointed out, it is very difficult to explain via written word.
It can be a very useful tool for a horse that tends to over bend and for the rider that tends to over bend one. Also useful to keep a horse that tends to drop it's shoulder more balanced and correct. It also can teach a rider how to keep one balanced, level and correct....it would help immensely to have someone help you until you understand exactly what you want your horse to do and how to ask them. Otherwise you could teach both you and your horse bad habits. |
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I'm Cooler Offline
Posts: 6387
Location: Pacific Northwest | rodeoveteran - 2017-05-17 9:31 AM
livexlovexrodeo - 2017-05-17 12:23 AM
I'm assuming your horse already knows how to two-track off your leg. If they can move laterally off your leg, you're pretty much already there. You just keep applying until they move their body all the way away.
This is how I teach it. I walk a figure 8, with the first circle being a "normal" arc, and then at the X of the figure 8 I push them into a reverse arc. So for example, walking a circle to the right. I have my horse shaped like I normally would, so nose is slightly tipped inside to the right.. At the X, I apply my right leg to "push" him the opposite direction, but his nose is still tipped to the right. In the beginning I might only get a few steps.The goal though is to be able to complete the figure 8, and you end up back with a "normal" arc. So walk a normal arced circle, reverse arc for the second circle, and as you're finishing that second circle you're already prepared to make another normal circle.
ETA My personal problem with asking for reverse arcs is using too much hand. It's one of the only occasions I catch myself trying to use my reins to "force" my horse to do something, especially if I haven't been working on it and they're rusty. I have to be mindful of keeping my hands light and mainly just asking for it with my legs. The more you do it, the more fluid your horse will be about it and you'll be able to reverse arc with as light a rein pressure as you would a normal arc.
I get what you are saying here, but for me I teach them to counter bend before two tracking, and it is the way I teach one to spin eventually.
What I would add to your process is that when I reach the center of the figure 8, I lift a little more and push my hand forward a little more when asking them to counter arc, also using a lot of leg. If they resist, I bump my hand up and use the flat of my foot in the shoulder instead of forcing more "hand" as you put it. (This would be the hand asking for bend )
Also, in the very beginning I use the opposite rein a little to "lead" them into the counter bend. As Bear pointed out, it is very difficult to explain via written word.
It can be a very useful tool for a horse that tends to over bend and for the rider that tends to over bend one. Also useful to keep a horse that tends to drop it's shoulder more balanced and correct. It also can teach a rider how to keep one balanced, level and correct....it would help immensely to have someone help you until you understand exactly what you want your horse to do and how to ask them. Otherwise you could teach both you and your horse bad habits.
I get what you're saying too! I just tend to not teach a counter arc until I feel like I need it. Not on purpose, I just forget about it for some reason. I use it on my over bendy horse, like you said too. I didn't originally train and pattern her and she's so noodly that I taught her the reverse arc so that I could walk a circle without her trying to wrap in half. She also tends to always travel bent to the inside, instead just walking straight. When she does that I will pick her up and reverse arc a 360 and keep doing it until I've worked the bend out of her.
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | WetSaddleBlankets - 2017-05-17 4:21 AM . There is some confusion about the two track on here. A two track is using your leg a little further back by the hip to push the hip in creating the horse to arc away from the your leg as the horse moves along with his hip in. It asks a horse to move its front legs and back legs in "two different tracks" which equates to hip control. A leg yield is moving the horse off your legs by the ribs making a side passing motion while moving forward. The horse creates bend around your leg so the rib is up or bent. For a counter arc you want to progress from a leg yield since it is creating the bend you want around the leg not away from the leg like with a two track... Which again is moving the hip in creating haunches in. A counter arc is shoulder control. You should move your leg a hair forward compared to the leg yield to allow the shoulder to move away from your leg and the body to arc around your leg as you do. There are a lot of great videos on YouTube!
I don't think there was confusion about 2 tracking at all. It's a basic lateral type control along with a half-pass/sidepass and shoulder in/out. If your horse understands those things that involve moving off your leg, counter-arcing isn't hard to teach. It's probably harder for the rider to get it than the horse just because most people tend to over-rely on their reins. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| Three 4 Luck - 2017-05-17 2:47 PM
WetSaddleBlankets - 2017-05-17 4:21 AM . There is some confusion about the two track on here. A two track is using your leg a little further back by the hip to push the hip in creating the horse to arc away from the your leg as the horse moves along with his hip in. It asks a horse to move its front legs and back legs in "two different tracks" which equates to hip control. A leg yield is moving the horse off your legs by the ribs making a side passing motion while moving forward. The horse creates bend around your leg so the rib is up or bent. For a counter arc you want to progress from a leg yield since it is creating the bend you want around the leg not away from the leg like with a two track... Which again is moving the hip in creating haunches in. A counter arc is shoulder control. You should move your leg a hair forward compared to the leg yield to allow the shoulder to move away from your leg and the body to arc around your leg as you do. There are a lot of great videos on YouTube!
I don't think there was confusion about 2 tracking at all. It's a basic lateral type control along with a half-pass/sidepass and shoulder in/out. If your horse understands those things that involve moving off your leg, counter-arcing isn't hard to teach. It's probably harder for the rider to get it than the horse just because most people tend to over-rely on their reins.
. I agree obviously that a counter arc, leg yield and two track are all lateral movements. But with a two track the horse is bent differently and its a lot harder maneuver for the horse. Their body is bent in an arc away from your leg since your foot is back towards the hip moving the hip over compared to a leg yield and a counter arc where you have the horse bending around your leg and moving away. It's easier on the horse to teach a counter arc after they know a leg yield vs going from a two track to a counter arc. Many times horses learn a basic leg yield before they ever learn a two track since two tracking is more complicated. That's all I meant. I meant it's easier for the horse and obviously the rider to learn a counter arc before they two track since each movement builds on one another. If the horse is already bent around your leg slightly from a leg yield why not just move your leg a little more forward to move the shoulder? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 460
| Thank you guys so much for the responses! There's a lot of good information here. I will definitely work on side passing more, and start taking all this into account and start teaching both of us <3 Very good methods! I'm starting to understand more about what it is, how to teach it, and what it's used for =] |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | WetSaddleBlankets - 2017-05-17 3:20 PM Three 4 Luck - 2017-05-17 2:47 PM WetSaddleBlankets - 2017-05-17 4:21 AM . There is some confusion about the two track on here. A two track is using your leg a little further back by the hip to push the hip in creating the horse to arc away from the your leg as the horse moves along with his hip in. It asks a horse to move its front legs and back legs in "two different tracks" which equates to hip control. A leg yield is moving the horse off your legs by the ribs making a side passing motion while moving forward. The horse creates bend around your leg so the rib is up or bent. For a counter arc you want to progress from a leg yield since it is creating the bend you want around the leg not away from the leg like with a two track... Which again is moving the hip in creating haunches in. A counter arc is shoulder control. You should move your leg a hair forward compared to the leg yield to allow the shoulder to move away from your leg and the body to arc around your leg as you do. There are a lot of great videos on YouTube! I don't think there was confusion about 2 tracking at all. It's a basic lateral type control along with a half-pass/sidepass and shoulder in/out. If your horse understands those things that involve moving off your leg, counter-arcing isn't hard to teach. It's probably harder for the rider to get it than the horse just because most people tend to over-rely on their reins.. I agree obviously that a counter arc, leg yield and two track are all lateral movements. But with a two track the horse is bent differently and its a lot harder maneuver for the horse. Their body is bent in an arc away from your leg since your foot is back towards the hip moving the hip over compared to a leg yield and a counter arc where you have the horse bending around your leg and moving away. It's easier on the horse to teach a counter arc after they know a leg yield vs going from a two track to a counter arc. Many times horses learn a basic leg yield before they ever learn a two track since two tracking is more complicated. That's all I meant. I meant it's easier for the horse and obviously the rider to learn a counter arc before they two track since each movement builds on one another. If the horse is already bent around your leg slightly from a leg yield why not just move your leg a little more forward to move the shoulder?
I take your point and you're right. For whatever reason, counter-arc is something I teach to a more advanced horse, after the other lateral movements. Maybe because I didn't learn to use it until later on. I think it was the mare I trained in 2003/04 that I first used it to get her reaching with her inside hind more--I was taking a lesson and we did it at a lope, actually, but because I had her so broke, she caught on fast. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| Three 4 Luck - 2017-05-17 5:19 PM
WetSaddleBlankets - 2017-05-17 3:20 PM Three 4 Luck - 2017-05-17 2:47 PM WetSaddleBlankets - 2017-05-17 4:21 AM . There is some confusion about the two track on here. A two track is using your leg a little further back by the hip to push the hip in creating the horse to arc away from the your leg as the horse moves along with his hip in. It asks a horse to move its front legs and back legs in "two different tracks" which equates to hip control. A leg yield is moving the horse off your legs by the ribs making a side passing motion while moving forward. The horse creates bend around your leg so the rib is up or bent. For a counter arc you want to progress from a leg yield since it is creating the bend you want around the leg not away from the leg like with a two track... Which again is moving the hip in creating haunches in. A counter arc is shoulder control. You should move your leg a hair forward compared to the leg yield to allow the shoulder to move away from your leg and the body to arc around your leg as you do. There are a lot of great videos on YouTube! I don't think there was confusion about 2 tracking at all. It's a basic lateral type control along with a half-pass/sidepass and shoulder in/out. If your horse understands those things that involve moving off your leg, counter-arcing isn't hard to teach. It's probably harder for the rider to get it than the horse just because most people tend to over-rely on their reins.. I agree obviously that a counter arc, leg yield and two track are all lateral movements. But with a two track the horse is bent differently and its a lot harder maneuver for the horse. Their body is bent in an arc away from your leg since your foot is back towards the hip moving the hip over compared to a leg yield and a counter arc where you have the horse bending around your leg and moving away. It's easier on the horse to teach a counter arc after they know a leg yield vs going from a two track to a counter arc. Many times horses learn a basic leg yield before they ever learn a two track since two tracking is more complicated. That's all I meant. I meant it's easier for the horse and obviously the rider to learn a counter arc before they two track since each movement builds on one another. If the horse is already bent around your leg slightly from a leg yield why not just move your leg a little more forward to move the shoulder?
It's so awesome how fast they learn something when they have all other tools. It's a great feeling! |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I really can't emphasize emphatically enough that this is something that is a very hard tool to develop through written or even verbal instruction alone. I think this is one maneuver that, if you don't do it properly, you can cause more problems than you correct. I'd invest in an hour's worth of help from an excellent trainer. Once you get it down you'll have something priceless forever. |
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | Bear - 2017-05-17 9:52 PM I really can't emphasize emphatically enough that this is something that is a very hard tool to develop through written or even verbal instruction alone. I think this is one maneuver that, if you don't do it properly, you can cause more problems than you correct. I'd invest in an hour's worth of help from an excellent trainer. Once you get it down you'll have something priceless forever.
I agree. Most people do it incorrectly and get the horse dumping on the outside shoulder or they don't move forward enough and bind the feet up. It takes some feel and finesse to do it correctly. I did it wrong for a lot of years than had someone show me the correct way and it changed my life.  |
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