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Expert
Posts: 1815
  
| Please tell me if you have had succes with alternative therapies for your horse that has bled. Had it happen and the first I've had to deal with it. Plan on getting horse scoped to know exactly how bad it is. Thanks! | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 509
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 Expert
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| There is nothing that will prevent bleeding besides lasix. There are things to help support lasix but only lasix will prevent bleeding. And if your planning on a scope it needs to be done immediately following the run. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I'm wondering about something outloud. I have no real personal experience with "bleeders", but my question is how do you define a "bleeder"? By that I mean if a horse has a bloody nose after a race, is that sufficient? Is that what most people are talking about? How many "bleeders" are just horses that have nosebleeds following exercise? Is it important to have a suspected bleeder (EIPH) scoped to document the origin of the bleeding? | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Bear - 2017-06-05 7:27 PM
I'm wondering about something outloud. I have no real personal experience with "bleeders", but my question is how do you define a "bleeder"? By that I mean if a horse has a bloody nose after a race, is that sufficient? Is that what most people are talking about? How many "bleeders" are just horses that have nosebleeds following exercise? Is it important to have a suspected bleeder (EIPH) scoped to document the origin of the bleeding?
Only way to tell is with a scope as close to a run as possible. Blood in the nose could be just from a busted vessel in the nasal region just like people, a scope will tell you if that is going on or there is blood in the lungs. I have taken my bleeder swimming then straight to the vet, no bleeding. One theory is the concussion from the hooves running up the legs, the quick stops and turns contributes to the busted vessels in the lungs. My bleeder has never had more than a trickle in one nostril that you could wipe away with a Kleenex, others may bleed enough to fill a bucket. Conversely, the absence of blood does not mean they did not bleed if there are other symptoms, cough, poor performance, etc. , they just did not bleed enough for it to come out the nose. | |
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 Saint Stacey
| Bear - 2017-06-05 6:27 PM
I'm wondering about something outloud. I have no real personal experience with "bleeders", but my question is how do you define a "bleeder"? By that I mean if a horse has a bloody nose after a race, is that sufficient? Is that what most people are talking about? How many "bleeders" are just horses that have nosebleeds following exercise? Is it important to have a suspected bleeder (EIPH) scoped to document the origin of the bleeding?
Not all horses that start bleeding are true bleeders. With that said, you sure don't want to screw around and turn them into one. We have one horse that never bled until we brought him here to CO, then he started. We treated him just like a true bleeder all last year. This year he hasn't had any problems. But we still use Lasix if he's running at a higher elevation just to be safe. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | rodeomom3 - 2017-06-05 7:44 PM
Bear - 2017-06-05 7:27 PM
I'm wondering about something outloud. I have no real personal experience with "bleeders", but my question is how do you define a "bleeder"? By that I mean if a horse has a bloody nose after a race, is that sufficient? Is that what most people are talking about? How many "bleeders" are just horses that have nosebleeds following exercise? Is it important to have a suspected bleeder (EIPH) scoped to document the origin of the bleeding?
Only way to tell is with a scope as close to a run as possible. Blood in the nose could be just from a busted vessel in the nasal region just like people, a scope will tell you if that is going on or there is blood in the lungs. I have taken my bleeder swimming then straight to the vet, no bleeding. One theory is the concussion from the hooves running up the legs, the quick stops and turns contributes to the busted vessels in the lungs. My bleeder has never had more than a trickle in one nostril that you could wipe away with a Kleenex, others may bleed enough to fill a bucket. Conversely, the absence of blood does not mean they did not bleed if there are other symptoms, cough, poor performance, etc. , they just did not bleed enough for it to come out the nose.
Yes, that's what I was getting at. I do know that the vast majority of track horses do bleed if you look hard enough. That's been shown in studies. In one study they noted that less than 1% of all track horses bled, IF you define bleeding as blood from a nostril. If they took the same group of horses and scoped them within a couple hours, they found evidence of bleeding in about 60% of them. If they scoped them after each race, for 3 consecutive races, then that number shot up to over 90%.
So that's where I get a little confused. It sounds to me like EIPH may be more common than people realize, even in barrel horses. Throw in the fact that many horses with epistaxis (nose bleeds) may not be "bleeders" at all, rather, they are bleeding from the nasopharynx.
I guess to me the takeaway is that you really should get the diagnosis nailed down before committing to a life of lasix for the horse.....so get them scoped after a run. Right? | |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | SKM - 2017-06-05 7:03 PM Bear - 2017-06-05 6:27 PM I'm wondering about something outloud. I have no real personal experience with "bleeders", but my question is how do you define a "bleeder"? By that I mean if a horse has a bloody nose after a race, is that sufficient? Is that what most people are talking about? How many "bleeders" are just horses that have nosebleeds following exercise? Is it important to have a suspected bleeder (EIPH) scoped to document the origin of the bleeding? Not all horses that start bleeding are true bleeders. With that said, you sure don't want to screw around and turn them into one. We have one horse that never bled until we brought him here to CO, then he started. We treated him just like a true bleeder all last year. This year he hasn't had any problems. But we still use Lasix if he's running at a higher elevation just to be safe.
and I have talked to a couple vets that think way more horses are bleeders than we know about. Food for thought. | |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Bear - 2017-06-05 8:12 PM rodeomom3 - 2017-06-05 7:44 PM Bear - 2017-06-05 7:27 PM I'm wondering about something outloud. I have no real personal experience with "bleeders", but my question is how do you define a "bleeder"? By that I mean if a horse has a bloody nose after a race, is that sufficient? Is that what most people are talking about? How many "bleeders" are just horses that have nosebleeds following exercise? Is it important to have a suspected bleeder (EIPH) scoped to document the origin of the bleeding? Only way to tell is with a scope as close to a run as possible. Blood in the nose could be just from a busted vessel in the nasal region just like people, a scope will tell you if that is going on or there is blood in the lungs. I have taken my bleeder swimming then straight to the vet, no bleeding. One theory is the concussion from the hooves running up the legs, the quick stops and turns contributes to the busted vessels in the lungs. My bleeder has never had more than a trickle in one nostril that you could wipe away with a Kleenex, others may bleed enough to fill a bucket. Conversely, the absence of blood does not mean they did not bleed if there are other symptoms, cough, poor performance, etc. , they just did not bleed enough for it to come out the nose. Yes, that's what I was getting at. I do know that the vast majority of track horses do bleed if you look hard enough. That's been shown in studies. In one study they noted that less than 1% of all track horses bled, IF you define bleeding as blood from a nostril. If they took the same group of horses and scoped them within a couple hours, they found evidence of bleeding in about 60% of them. If they scoped them after each race, for 3 consecutive races, then that number shot up to over 90%. So that's where I get a little confused. It sounds to me like EIPH may be more common than people realize, even in barrel horses. Throw in the fact that many horses with epistaxis (nose bleeds ) may not be "bleeders" at all, rather, they are bleeding from the nasopharynx. I guess to me the takeaway is that you really should get the diagnosis nailed down before committing to a life of lasix for the horse.....so get them scoped after a run. Right?
Right | |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| rodeomom3 - 2017-06-05 8:29 PM
Bear - 2017-06-05 8:12 PM rodeomom3 - 2017-06-05 7:44 PM Bear - 2017-06-05 7:27 PM I'm wondering about something outloud. I have no real personal experience with "bleeders", but my question is how do you define a "bleeder"? By that I mean if a horse has a bloody nose after a race, is that sufficient? Is that what most people are talking about? How many "bleeders" are just horses that have nosebleeds following exercise? Is it important to have a suspected bleeder (EIPH) scoped to document the origin of the bleeding? Only way to tell is with a scope as close to a run as possible. Blood in the nose could be just from a busted vessel in the nasal region just like people, a scope will tell you if that is going on or there is blood in the lungs. I have taken my bleeder swimming then straight to the vet, no bleeding. One theory is the concussion from the hooves running up the legs, the quick stops and turns contributes to the busted vessels in the lungs. My bleeder has never had more than a trickle in one nostril that you could wipe away with a Kleenex, others may bleed enough to fill a bucket. Conversely, the absence of blood does not mean they did not bleed if there are other symptoms, cough, poor performance, etc. , they just did not bleed enough for it to come out the nose. Yes, that's what I was getting at. I do know that the vast majority of track horses do bleed if you look hard enough. That's been shown in studies. In one study they noted that less than 1% of all track horses bled, IF you define bleeding as blood from a nostril. If they took the same group of horses and scoped them within a couple hours, they found evidence of bleeding in about 60% of them. If they scoped them after each race, for 3 consecutive races, then that number shot up to over 90%. So that's where I get a little confused. It sounds to me like EIPH may be more common than people realize, even in barrel horses. Throw in the fact that many horses with epistaxis (nose bleeds ) may not be "bleeders" at all, rather, they are bleeding from the nasopharynx. I guess to me the takeaway is that you really should get the diagnosis nailed down before committing to a life of lasix for the horse.....so get them scoped after a run. Right?
 Only very small percentage of bleeders bleed out of a nostril.... So the thing is most horses don't bleed out but have blood in the trachea during a scope. That is why a scope is important to diagnose a bleeder. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | WetSaddleBlankets - 2017-06-05 11:16 PM
rodeomom3 - 2017-06-05 8:29 PM
Bear - 2017-06-05 8:12 PM rodeomom3 - 2017-06-05 7:44 PM Bear - 2017-06-05 7:27 PM I'm wondering about something outloud. I have no real personal experience with "bleeders", but my question is how do you define a "bleeder"? By that I mean if a horse has a bloody nose after a race, is that sufficient? Is that what most people are talking about? How many "bleeders" are just horses that have nosebleeds following exercise? Is it important to have a suspected bleeder (EIPH) scoped to document the origin of the bleeding? Only way to tell is with a scope as close to a run as possible. Blood in the nose could be just from a busted vessel in the nasal region just like people, a scope will tell you if that is going on or there is blood in the lungs. I have taken my bleeder swimming then straight to the vet, no bleeding. One theory is the concussion from the hooves running up the legs, the quick stops and turns contributes to the busted vessels in the lungs. My bleeder has never had more than a trickle in one nostril that you could wipe away with a Kleenex, others may bleed enough to fill a bucket. Conversely, the absence of blood does not mean they did not bleed if there are other symptoms, cough, poor performance, etc. , they just did not bleed enough for it to come out the nose. Yes, that's what I was getting at. I do know that the vast majority of track horses do bleed if you look hard enough. That's been shown in studies. In one study they noted that less than 1% of all track horses bled, IF you define bleeding as blood from a nostril. If they took the same group of horses and scoped them within a couple hours, they found evidence of bleeding in about 60% of them. If they scoped them after each race, for 3 consecutive races, then that number shot up to over 90%. So that's where I get a little confused. It sounds to me like EIPH may be more common than people realize, even in barrel horses. Throw in the fact that many horses with epistaxis (nose bleeds ) may not be "bleeders" at all, rather, they are bleeding from the nasopharynx. I guess to me the takeaway is that you really should get the diagnosis nailed down before committing to a life of lasix for the horse.....so get them scoped after a run. Right? Only very small percentage of bleeders bleed out of a nostril.... So the thing is most horses don't bleed out but have blood in the trachea during a scope. That is why a scope is important to diagnose a bleeder.
Sounds like we're in agreement then. So the next question is, if a horse doesn't show any external signs of being a bleeder, what signs should point to a diagnosis of EIPH? | |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Bear - 2017-06-06 7:07 AM WetSaddleBlankets - 2017-06-05 11:16 PM rodeomom3 - 2017-06-05 8:29 PM Bear - 2017-06-05 8:12 PM rodeomom3 - 2017-06-05 7:44 PM Bear - 2017-06-05 7:27 PM I'm wondering about something outloud. I have no real personal experience with "bleeders", but my question is how do you define a "bleeder"? By that I mean if a horse has a bloody nose after a race, is that sufficient? Is that what most people are talking about? How many "bleeders" are just horses that have nosebleeds following exercise? Is it important to have a suspected bleeder (EIPH) scoped to document the origin of the bleeding? Only way to tell is with a scope as close to a run as possible. Blood in the nose could be just from a busted vessel in the nasal region just like people, a scope will tell you if that is going on or there is blood in the lungs. I have taken my bleeder swimming then straight to the vet, no bleeding. One theory is the concussion from the hooves running up the legs, the quick stops and turns contributes to the busted vessels in the lungs. My bleeder has never had more than a trickle in one nostril that you could wipe away with a Kleenex, others may bleed enough to fill a bucket. Conversely, the absence of blood does not mean they did not bleed if there are other symptoms, cough, poor performance, etc. , they just did not bleed enough for it to come out the nose. Yes, that's what I was getting at. I do know that the vast majority of track horses do bleed if you look hard enough. That's been shown in studies. In one study they noted that less than 1% of all track horses bled, IF you define bleeding as blood from a nostril. If they took the same group of horses and scoped them within a couple hours, they found evidence of bleeding in about 60% of them. If they scoped them after each race, for 3 consecutive races, then that number shot up to over 90%. So that's where I get a little confused. It sounds to me like EIPH may be more common than people realize, even in barrel horses. Throw in the fact that many horses with epistaxis (nose bleeds ) may not be "bleeders" at all, rather, they are bleeding from the nasopharynx. I guess to me the takeaway is that you really should get the diagnosis nailed down before committing to a life of lasix for the horse.....so get them scoped after a run. Right? Only very small percentage of bleeders bleed out of a nostril.... So the thing is most horses don't bleed out but have blood in the trachea during a scope. That is why a scope is important to diagnose a bleeder. Sounds like we're in agreement then. So the next question is, if a horse doesn't show any external signs of being a bleeder, what signs should point to a diagnosis of EIPH?
Coughing, can't get their air, running frightened, running off because they can't breathe, not clocking. We owned our bleeder 2 years before we saw blood so I assume he had been bleeding without us knowing. He never showed any symptoms, worked great, clocked great. He came from dry west Texas to Houston, our humid climate probably contributed to his bleeding. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 317
Location: MS | My bleeder never coughed or had trouble catching his breath after a run. I'd see a trickle of blood only in one nostril a couple hours after he ran. I have spent a small fortune on supplements and respiratory workups. There's no explanation for why he bleeds. He just does.
He doesn't tolerate lasix well so he's no longer running.
I will say this he knew before a run he was going to bleed. If he acted up in the alley you can bet he would bleed through the lasix.
He was kept in race horse shape.
It's been over a year since he ran. I've done a ton of research and removed everything that thins blood or can cause inflammation from his diet.
Alot of what they tell you to give a bleeder thins blood. Research all your vitimens and mineral before picking a supplement for a bleeder.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | rodeomom3 - 2017-06-06 7:34 AM
Bear - 2017-06-06 7:07 AM WetSaddleBlankets - 2017-06-05 11:16 PM rodeomom3 - 2017-06-05 8:29 PM Bear - 2017-06-05 8:12 PM rodeomom3 - 2017-06-05 7:44 PM Bear - 2017-06-05 7:27 PM I'm wondering about something outloud. I have no real personal experience with "bleeders", but my question is how do you define a "bleeder"? By that I mean if a horse has a bloody nose after a race, is that sufficient? Is that what most people are talking about? How many "bleeders" are just horses that have nosebleeds following exercise? Is it important to have a suspected bleeder (EIPH) scoped to document the origin of the bleeding? Only way to tell is with a scope as close to a run as possible. Blood in the nose could be just from a busted vessel in the nasal region just like people, a scope will tell you if that is going on or there is blood in the lungs. I have taken my bleeder swimming then straight to the vet, no bleeding. One theory is the concussion from the hooves running up the legs, the quick stops and turns contributes to the busted vessels in the lungs. My bleeder has never had more than a trickle in one nostril that you could wipe away with a Kleenex, others may bleed enough to fill a bucket. Conversely, the absence of blood does not mean they did not bleed if there are other symptoms, cough, poor performance, etc. , they just did not bleed enough for it to come out the nose. Yes, that's what I was getting at. I do know that the vast majority of track horses do bleed if you look hard enough. That's been shown in studies. In one study they noted that less than 1% of all track horses bled, IF you define bleeding as blood from a nostril. If they took the same group of horses and scoped them within a couple hours, they found evidence of bleeding in about 60% of them. If they scoped them after each race, for 3 consecutive races, then that number shot up to over 90%. So that's where I get a little confused. It sounds to me like EIPH may be more common than people realize, even in barrel horses. Throw in the fact that many horses with epistaxis (nose bleeds ) may not be "bleeders" at all, rather, they are bleeding from the nasopharynx. I guess to me the takeaway is that you really should get the diagnosis nailed down before committing to a life of lasix for the horse.....so get them scoped after a run. Right? Only very small percentage of bleeders bleed out of a nostril.... So the thing is most horses don't bleed out but have blood in the trachea during a scope. That is why a scope is important to diagnose a bleeder. Sounds like we're in agreement then. So the next question is, if a horse doesn't show any external signs of being a bleeder, what signs should point to a diagnosis of EIPH?
Makes perfect sense. I can see where it could be hard to distinguish a horse that is just plain nervous, for no particular reason, from one who dreads making a run because of the air hunger he anticipates.
I bet a lot of people are thinking, well, why not just skip the diagnostics and just give lasix? I'm sure that's what most do. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1815
| pretty much sick to my stomach over this ~ Going to the vet tonight, would love to have had him scoped right after his run, but this is the soonest it could be done. At least it should show past lesions if there are any??? He has been run by me past several years, and just had a drop of blood a month ago, no blood last 3 weeks, and then more than a drop this past weekend. No silliness, and working great. Have not seen any blood until a couple hours after the run...........I am going to try the pulmonary shield by gateway products......and prob lasix for a while, which I really do not want to use ......have you tried that product? | |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| mouse - 2017-06-06 8:43 AM pretty much sick to my stomach over this ~ Going to the vet tonight, would love to have had him scoped right after his run, but this is the soonest it could be done. At least it should show past lesions if there are any??? He has been run by me past several years, and just had a drop of blood a month ago, no blood last 3 weeks, and then more than a drop this past weekend. No silliness, and working great. Have not seen any blood until a couple hours after the run...........I am going to try the pulmonary shield by gateway products......and prob lasix for a while, which I really do not want to use ......have you tried that product?
I have tried all kinds of products with no success except with lasix. I have found lasix to not be as frightening as others finf using it. He runs on 4 cc 3 hours out and I paste with electrolytes after a run. We have owned him 12 years, looks great, runs great, I have seen no long term effects from the lasix. I am a weekend warrior, he runs maybe 3 times a month. I have him scoped every couple of years and his lungs look great. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
| I sent my horse's diagnosis and test results from trachea wash to THE. They made up a special formula for my horse. Lung Function. I am on my 2nd bag(80 servings per bag) and I do 3cc of Lasix before a run . So far,no bleeding. I did try the pulmoshield by gateway,but didn't help. Good luck and I hope you find something that works for you. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | I had only one I could ever take off of lasix, what I did was ride and exercise 5-6 days a week, intense long trotting and breezing to strengthen her lungs. I have her vitamin K and selenium as a supplement to help clot the blood, I think the reason she quit bleeding is because I strengthened her lungs.
I'd be surprised to see. Horse that runs that doesn't bleed, I think they all do to a certain extent, whether it's one small capillary bursting to thousands, they all do it at one time or another. Obviously very bad bleeders will bleed out where you can see, but so many do it without you knowing. Know the tell tale signs, slowing down running home, coughing, bulking at the gate etc.
It's to hot down here to dehydrate our horses with lasix so I try my best to keep them in shape. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1815
| rodeomom3 - 2017-06-06 9:05 AM
mouse - 2017-06-06 8:43 AM pretty much sick to my stomach over this ~ Going to the vet tonight, would love to have had him scoped right after his run, but this is the soonest it could be done. At least it should show past lesions if there are any??? He has been run by me past several years, and just had a drop of blood a month ago, no blood last 3 weeks, and then more than a drop this past weekend.  No silliness, and working great.  Have not seen any blood until a couple hours after the run...........I am going to try the pulmonary shield by gateway products......and prob lasix for a while, which I really do not want to use ......have you tried that product? Â
 I have tried all kinds of products with no success except with lasix.  I have found  lasix to not be as frightening as others finf using it.  He runs on 4 cc 3 hours out and I paste with electrolytes after a run.  We have owned him 12 years, looks great, runs great, I have seen no  long term effects from the lasix.  I am a weekend warrior, he runs maybe 3 times a month.  I have him scoped every couple of years and his lungs look great.Â
thankyou..........the Lasix stories I hear scare me. Will know more after tonight. He is in shape, but I know not in the tip top shape I have had him in previous years, so I partly blame myself. He has not shown any gate issues, or blowing off during the run. Working really well actually........A journey I don't want to take, but here we go
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 317
Location: MS | I always made a point to let mine graze or hang his hay bag low after a run. That way if he did bleed I'd have a better chance of seeing it.
You might ask your vet about doing an Ultrasound on his lungs. That will show scar tissue from previous bleeds. Mine had a couple small abcesses in his lungs from bleeding.(small spots of infection from the blood pooling)
We did a wash so we'd know what antibiotics to use. | |
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