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Veteran
Posts: 217
| My gelding is ten years old, and has some old habits dying hard. (extremely buddy sour if hauled with another horse, setting back when he throws a temper tantrum at the trailer) I consider him sensitive because most days you can't over correct him or he becomes panicked and he'll need to do some brain working exercises before you can reintroduce something or test him again. Will only keep his mouth closed in a chain bit so he is ran and worked in a start to finish bit with a chain chin strap set loosely. He has a fusing hock and a bone chip in the other hock, but the problems happen with or without bute given to him. He was injected last month.
Problem number one... he does slow work beautifully. Will collect and we've gone twenty strides so far in keeping collection (I know we have further to go to translate this into a turn in a pattern). He'll finish all his barrels at a trot. As soon as we ask for a lope, we can lope to first but as soon as he finishes it, he pretty much bolts to second and there is no slowing him down. Obviously in a run this gets worse, and I can't get him to set himself up for a pocket. I have a ported, reining style Dutton bit that gets his attention but he looks like an alligator for the first twenty minutes in this and then he'll leave it alone...
Problem number two... falls in with number one. Since we don't get to set up for second barrel we come out wide of our second barrel and it's all I can to get him sort of lined up for third. On a good day, he still comes out of second wider than I care for but it doesn't feel like he's just trying to go as fast as he can.
Last problem....brakes. I can stop him in an instant with my seat in a walk, trot, or canter with no cheat steps. I try not to do it in a canter often because of his hocks but I want to make sure the brakes work. As soon as we start doing pattern work, the brake lines seem blown and it's a please stop feeling at the end. I've made sure I sat deep with my feet off of him saying whoa.
What drills can we do to get this figured out together? He sometimes will pop his nose up when he really wants to avoid me, should I try a loose tie down? New bit? Thank you guys for always being awesome 
Edit: Feel free to be blunt. It'd be hard to go to a trainer due to working 8-4:30 during the week
Edited by mgander 2017-09-05 10:14 AM
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 Miss Laundry Misshap
Posts: 5271
 
| Sounds like there's other pain there possibly.
Also sounds like there's a real need to go back and install some good old fashioned buttons. 20 collected loping steps? That sould be able to lope 20 laps collected.
Taking off after 1st barrel? Um no. Stop and back his rear up and make him wait until you tell him to go.
What are you doing for your slow work that is so fantastic? w/t/l in a collected manner for laps at a time? Arc, counter arc, rollbacks, working on crossing over footwork based on rider weight? 1/2 halts, transitions?
Maybe a video would help but it sounds like you're trying to run a horse that doesn't have much in the way of basics in order to be controlled. | |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
 
Location: North Dakota | I agree ^^.
A 10-year-old horse should be broke. You should be able to lope nice circles all day long (provided he isn't still having pain in his hocks, even though you injected him). So sounds like he just still has lots of holes in his basic training. The bolting and not stopping are holes in training. The throwing of the nose is holes in training.
Personally, I'd send him to a good reining trainer for 30 days. Give him a little refresher on good ol' basics and body control, and remind him to listen to the rider.
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Veteran
Posts: 217
| Nateracer - 2017-09-05 11:29 AM
Sounds like there's other pain there possibly. Â
 Also sounds like there's a real need to go back and install some good old fashioned buttons.  20 collected loping steps?  That sould be able to lope 20 laps collected.  Â
Taking off after 1st barrel? Um no. Â Stop and back his rear up and make him wait until you tell him to go. Â Â
What are you doing for your slow work that is so fantastic? Â w/t/l in a collected manner for laps at a time? Â Arc, counter arc, rollbacks, working on crossing over footwork based on rider weight? Â 1/2 halts, transitions? Â
Maybe a video would help but it sounds like you're trying to run a horse that doesn't have much in the way of basics in order to be controlled. Â
Will dig into it and save up some money and go to a better lameness vet (we aren't doing much hauling this winter so I can pinch pennies)
Okay what I needed to hear, just wasn't trusting my gut since he's more horsepower than I've ever owned. Will def work on the patience thing on the pattern.
Side pass, shoulder in, shoulder out, hips in, hips out, counter arc, hinging, not rushing over trotting poles, and backing circles are done with an instant response and no fighting. Moving based on weight is where he really is lacking.
Our first show after injections
He was quieter than normal at this show
Super small pattern, but no rate or control and he was super hot headed, second rodeo ever
I don't have any slow work videos
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Veteran
Posts: 217
| r_beau - 2017-09-05 12:05 PM
I agree ^^.
A 10-year-old horse should be broke. You should be able to lope nice circles all day long (provided he isn't still having pain in his hocks, even though you injected him). So sounds like he just still has lots of holes in his basic training. The bolting and not stopping are holes in training. The throwing of the nose is holes in training.
Personally, I'd send him to a good reining trainer for 30 days. Give him a little refresher on good ol' basics and body control, and remind him to listen to the rider.
Â
Thank you. I'll have to look into some around here because he's too good of a horse for me to possibly not fix him right
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12842
| I think you need to go back to basics. Sounds to me like he has been brought a long too fast. I would pull him off barrels. I think you need to get his attention, build his trust and build his confidence. He obviously is not listening to you. | |
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Miss Laundry Misshap
Posts: 5271
| The first video looked like a pain issue.
Second video was ok, but hard to see what you were doing.
Third video was simply not having control. He needed way more help from you in order to work in that small of pattern.
I don't think your bit set up is helping him at all. A chain is very light and without much for a chin strap there probably isn't much control. If he chews on bits, maybe try a cavesson. And tighten your chinstrap so you have some whoa to help rate him.
Has he had his teeth done? Also, an injection isn't going to take away the pain from a bone chip, think rock in your shoe. A sock doesn't help, it'll still poke you. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 217
| Nateracer - 2017-09-05 12:51 PM
The first video looked like a pain issue.
Second video was ok, but hard to see what you were doing. Â
Third video was simply not having control. He needed way more help from you in order to work in that small of pattern.Â
I don't think your bit set up is helping him at all. Â A chain is very light and without much for a chin strap there probably isn't much control. Â If he chews on bits, maybe try a cavesson. Â And tighten your chinstrap so you have some whoa to help rate him.Â
Has he had his teeth done?  Also, an injection isn't going to take away the pain from a bone chip, think rock in your shoe.  A sock doesn't help, it'll still poke you. Â
I know, I don't usually have anyone around to record me, sorry they aren't better. He won't chew or chomp on the bit, he gapes his mouth in anything other than a chain. He is due for his teeth to be done, which will be next week. I know he had his teeth done last year at this time and he had sharp hooks and severe scarring in his mouth.
His fusing hock causes more pain when we turn, this is why we switched directions instead of going to right first. This doesn't help with my baffling with him | |
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Veteran
Posts: 217
| streakysox - 2017-09-05 12:17 PM
I think you need to go back to basics. Sounds to me like he has been brought a long too fast. I would pull him off barrels. I think you need to get his attention, build his trust and build his confidence. He obviously is not listening to you.
Thank you, will definitely be looking into someone to train him on the basics more | |
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Take a Picture
Posts: 12842
| I have one that is ready to go and will easily be a 1D horse. Trainer said get her and take her home so we can get used to each other. She threw me. I had her at the vet and she had ulcers (not saying yours has ulcers) Treated and sent her back to the trainer. she started her back on basics. It never hurts to go back to basics.
Trainer has one of Martha Joseys horses and she is fractious to say the least. Took her back to basics and she is a new horse. It is never too late to go back to basics. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 217
| streakysox - 2017-09-05 1:52 PM
I have one that is ready to go and will easily be a 1D horse. Trainer said get her and take her home so we can get used to each other. She threw me. I had her at the vet and she had ulcers (not saying yours has ulcers) Treated and sent her back to the trainer. she started her back on basics. It never hurts to go back to basics.
Trainer has one of Martha Joseys horses and she is fractious to say the least. Took her back to basics and she is a new horse. It is never too late to go back to basics.
Well he is having reactions at those ulcer points at the girth and withers, but I'm confident his is pain triggered because they have been reduced drastically with a diet change and treating his hocks. Thank you for the input, we will be going back to basics. Unfortunately I'm definitely going to have to send him somewhere since I'll be having foot surgery on the 13th. | |
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 Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12708
| Not wanting to be negative so please take this as a differing opinion only --
If this is a finished horse, or as finished as he's ever going to be (what most 10yo's are, imo), then he may not need to do any fast pattern work.
My horse sees the barrels only as a slow-down exercise. As in when we walk or trot the pattern he knows he's done for the day. If he does something completely stupid at a walk or trot I do make him do it again, at a walk or trot.
I have retrained this horse on his 1st barrel approach completely at a walk and trot. He was already trained, but his approach needed to be different than how he was trained to accommodate his personal style.
I also patterned a very hot and finished mare to the left (after being a righty) wholly at a walk and trot.
Drills bore and sour a lot of horses. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 217
| lonely va barrelxr - 2017-09-05 3:28 PM
Not wanting to be negative so please take this as a differing opinion only --
If this is a finished horse, or as finished as he's ever going to be (what most 10yo's are, imo), then he may not need to do any fast pattern work. Â
My horse sees the barrels only as a slow-down exercise. Â As in when we walk or trot the pattern he knows he's done for the day. Â If he does something completely stupid at a walk or trot I do make him do it again, at a walk or trot. Â
I have retrained this horse on his 1st barrel approach completely at a walk and trot. Â He was already trained, but his approach needed to be different than how he was trained to accommodate his personal style. Â
I also patterned a very hot and finished mare to the left (after being a righty) wholly at a walk and trot. Â
Drills bore and sour a lot of horses. Â Â
I'm all ears, or eyes in this case. Sometimes need to step back and look at things differently which is where I need help most days.
I'm not sure what constitutes as a finished horse exactly. The only barrel he's automatic on now is our new first barrel, left. That was done with a walk and trot. I do like your thought as using it as a slow down, relaxing exercise. It might help keep his brain from going ten thousand miles an hour on it.
I was meaning drills away from the pattern to help maybe soften him or help him use his brain all the time. He lacks confidence when a pattern is changed. I'm working on him being more accountable in keeping in his gait and not turning unless I say so | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 534
Location: Ohio girl moved to PA | idk if this has been suggested yet, but i was at the RFM show and stoneboro yesterday and saw yall and your saddle did not look to fit him at all. Which is going to cause problems.. Your saddle pad isnt the best either. Please dont take this as me being mean, im just trying to help. He definitly needs slowed down and taken off the barrels. Im not sure where youre excatly located but, Talk to a local trainer and see if you can haul in a couple days a week and get advice while being taught so you know how to fix things. I still do this and both my horses have been trained already. It never hurts to get more help. Hes trying to escape pain, have you had him chiro'd or massaged lately? I would def look into that as well! Good luck!! I know its so frustrating. | |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| I would be really curious to see an X-ray of his back...
I have a gelding who was having a number of issues including blowing out of barrels and occasionally bolting, etc. despite pretty good slow work. I took him to the university and he flexed/trotted off on concrete 10/10 sound. I was starting to feel really inadequate as a rider until we went ahead and xrayed his back (I'd noticed soreness there). Dun dun dun - kissing spines! High impact work like actually running the pattern and setting to turn a barrel is what would bring it out.
We injected him and he's back to heading steers like a champ, had fewer issues there though. Remains to be seen if he will mentally return to the barrels, he still has a LOT of anxiety there, so we aren't even looking at one until spring, if then.
I also agree that the bone chip may need more attention as well. | |
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 The Worst Seller Ever
Posts: 4138
Location: Oklahoma | Here is what I see, and feel free to completely ignore it. LOL - He is listening to what you are asking at first, and doing it.
- He looks like he know what he is supposed to do, but doesn't know how to wait for you.
- You look behind, which is what is leading to your issue at 2nd. If you were able to leave 1st with him, not trying to make him wait on you, you would be set up really good for 2nd.
- He is making a good 2nd, until you need to help him on the backside. He is looking for you to help him finish the barrel.
You said he is faster than anything you have been on, so I am sure he is intimidating and getting to the 2nd quicker than you want. You need to get comfortable with his quickness. Do rollbacks, learn to sit and be ready to help him. Maybe try a bonnet or tie-down for him to lean on at 2nd and 3rd. I think he was/is a nice horse. You all jsut need to comfortabel with each other. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 217
| Ohiobarrelracer - 2017-09-05 4:33 PM
idk if this has been suggested yet, but i was at the RFM show and stoneboro yesterday and saw yall and your saddle did not look to fit him at all. Which is going to cause problems.. Your saddle pad isnt the best either. Please dont take this as me being mean, im just trying to help. He definitly needs slowed down and taken off the barrels. Im not sure where youre excatly located but, Talk to a local trainer and see if you can haul in a couple days a week and get advice while being taught so you know how to fix things. I still do this and both my horses have been trained already. It never hurts to get more help. Hes trying to escape pain, have you had him chiro'd or massaged lately? I would def look into that as well! Good luck!! I know its so frustrating. Â
Not taking as mean at all. I purchased that saddle for my mare that's a wide backed barrel. Orange saddle pad is more of a lookin at pad since there's no real padding to it and I had a felt pad with a build up pad under the front. His top line was extremely weak, he has the nickname shark fin for that reason. Chiro is on the next step once teeth are done next week. Spoke with a couple of people already to start going back to basics with him. Thank you for the advice :) | |
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Veteran
Posts: 217
| OhMax - 2017-09-05 4:44 PM
I would be really curious to see an X-ray of his back...
I have a gelding who was having a number of issues including blowing out of barrels and occasionally bolting, etc. despite pretty good slow work. I took him to the university and he flexed/trotted off on concrete 10/10 sound. I was starting to feel really inadequate as a rider until we went ahead and xrayed his back (I'd noticed soreness there). Dun dun dun - kissing spines! High impact work like actually running the pattern and setting to turn a barrel is what would bring it out.
We injected him and he's back to heading steers like a champ, had fewer issues there though. Remains to be seen if he will mentally return to the barrels, he still has a LOT of anxiety there, so we aren't even looking at one until spring, if then.
I also agree that the bone chip may need more attention as well.
Thank you! Once tax season returns I believe I'll be hauling him to a highly recommended vet this time around. Prev vet thought with some shockwave that it might possibly heal back since it wasn't very far from the bone and wasn't very old | |
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Veteran
Posts: 217
| clover girl - 2017-09-05 5:02 PM
Here is what I see, and feel free to completely ignore it. LOL - He is listening to what you are asking at first, and doing it.
- He looks like he know what he is supposed to do, but doesn't know how to wait for you.
- You look behind, which is what is leading to your issue at 2nd. If you were able to leave 1st with him, not trying to make him wait on you, you would be set up really good for 2nd.
- He is making a good 2nd, until you need to help him on the backside.  He is looking for you to help him finish the barrel.
You said he is faster than anything you have been on, so I am sure he is intimidating and getting to the 2nd quicker than you want. You need to get comfortable with his quickness. Do rollbacks, learn to sit and be ready to help him. Maybe try a bonnet or tie-down for him to lean on at 2nd and 3rd. I think he was/is a nice horse. You all jsut need to comfortabel with each other.
No advice is ignored! I definitely feel a little off with him yet. I haven't figured out timing yet or how to get it figured out with this caliber of a horse. Thinking lessons are needed this spring | |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | mgander - 2017-09-05 9:49 PM
clover girl - 2017-09-05 5:02 PM
Here is what I see, and feel free to completely ignore it. LOL - He is listening to what you are asking at first, and doing it.
- He looks like he know what he is supposed to do, but doesn't know how to wait for you.
- You look behind, which is what is leading to your issue at 2nd. If you were able to leave 1st with him, not trying to make him wait on you, you would be set up really good for 2nd.
- He is making a good 2nd, until you need to help him on the backside.  He is looking for you to help him finish the barrel.
You said he is faster than anything you have been on, so I am sure he is intimidating and getting to the 2nd quicker than you want. You need to get comfortable with his quickness. Do rollbacks, learn to sit and be ready to help him. Maybe try a bonnet or tie-down for him to lean on at 2nd and 3rd. I think he was/is a nice horse. You all jsut need to comfortabel with each other.
No advice is ignored! I definitely feel a little off with him yet. I haven't figured out timing yet or how to get it figured out with this caliber of a horse. Thinking lessons are needed this spring
I think it's wonderful that you're looking for answers and taking it all in---and not being defensive or getting all up in the air about what folks are suggesting. Sounds like you truly want to figure out and do what's right for your boy | |
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