|
|
 Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
   
Location: Louisiana | Can this be taught? OR is it a "ya either got it or ya don't" kind of thing?
I have a 5 year old who is very broke. My husband has done a lot of cow work with him, and recently started heading on him-or rather, teaching him how to be a head horse, not really roping a ton.
I have ridden him a bit and I noticed, he isn't reaching up under himself when I go down to a smaller circle. He's losing his hind end a bit. At a lope sometimes he wants to swap his hind lead.
Is this a conformation issue, or something he just needs to slow down and figure out?
He is a smart colt, but we're both getting frustrated trying to get him to collect and have proper form in a smaller circle-say under 15' diameter. How do I teach this?
If it is a common thing that was just missed in his training, I'll gladly send him to someone more talented than me to work with him.
Part of me feels like this should be somewhat of a natural movement, so I'm worried he has something going on.
This time last year he was so clumsy I hated to ride him, just wasn't aware of his legs LOL. He's outgrown that, so maybe he just needs time and patience??
I know he needs to develop the muscles and strength needed for a tight turn, but the lead swapping worries me.
Thanks guys!! |
|
| |
|
 Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | It is taught.
I ride a lot of "broke" horses who have never been taught to keep their hip underneath them and not swinging to the outside. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 277
| The ones I have ridden that need to be taught how to keep their hind end under them don't have the natural cow on a barrel like I like. Also, tends to me a soundness problem if the horse is straight up and down in the hind legs and longer legged. |
|
| |
|
Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | Meep.Meep - 2017-11-02 2:11 PM
The ones I have ridden that need to be taught how to keep their hind end under them don't have the natural cow on a barrel like I like. Also, tends to me a soundness problem if the horse is straight up and down in the hind legs and longer legged.
He has the natural "want to". He is so eager to please, and really wants to work. But I want him to work correct LOL.
And if I allow him to go faster, he has pretty turns and keeps his correct leads. But it's the slow work where I guess we both have to think about it that he seems to get lost.
He isn't long-legged, but is longer bodied.
I'm at the point where I know he has the natural talent, and I want to nurture that and teach him the correct way so he lasts and is easy to ride. I told my husband he won't see another barrel until I can get him riding like I want.
I also wonder if it's not me-I'm out of shape and a littler slower-reacting than I used to be. My husband is very technical, not your average team roper LOL, and he works great for him. |
|
| |
|
Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | BamaCanChaser - 2017-11-02 2:07 PM
It is taught.
I ride a lot of "broke" horses who have never been taught to keep their hip underneath them and not swinging to the outside.
How do I teach him?!?!
I'm all ears.
My 2 came to me finished barrel horses.
He isn't swinging it out, and definitely knows how to use his butt...but maybe there was a step missed somewhere.
Hubby is great but I'll admit he doesn't go in very many circles...they learn more quick movements like rollbacks and such, but aren't made to "hold" their form very long.
Another habit he has, he is almost too soft in his face, and wants to tuck and get heavy on his front end, like he's getting away from me. I get frustrated when he does this. And I try not to ride frustrated.
Seriously, all ears!! |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 233
| So you keep your inside leg supporting them, and as they pick up the inside hind foot, squeeze/pulse/tap/weight your seat/weight your inside stirrup. Not all at once, just whatever works for that individual horse. Inside rein is very gently supportive, quietly there, and you support/breathe down the rein/bump as necessary to keep horsey from collapsing at the shoulder or nose diving.
Um, I wouldn't try this without a horse that hasn't been taught to leg yield, at least at the walk and trot. So if you don't have a nice solid leg yield, start there. |
|
| |
|
 Take a Picture
Posts: 12842
| If the horse is already trained it could easily something else. My horse has been properly trained. You can control all four feet. We decided to take her to a different farrier and WOW what a difference.
Had to correct that typo before someone thought I could not spell TO.
Edited by streakysox 2017-11-02 6:29 PM
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 277
| dashnlotti - 2017-11-02 3:27 PM
Meep.Meep - 2017-11-02 2:11 PM
The ones I have ridden that need to be taught how to keep their hind end under them don't have the natural cow on a barrel like I like. Also, tends to me a soundness problem if the horse is straight up and down in the hind legs and longer legged.
He has the natural "want to". He is so eager to please, and really wants to work. But I want him to work correct LOL.
And if I allow him to go faster, he has pretty turns and keeps his correct leads. But it's the slow work where I guess we both have to think about it that he seems to get lost.
He isn't long-legged, but is longer bodied.
I'm at the point where I know he has the natural talent, and I want to nurture that and teach him the correct way so he lasts and is easy to ride. I told my husband he won't see another barrel until I can get him riding like I want.
I also wonder if it's not me-I'm out of shape and a littler slower-reacting than I used to be. My husband is very technical, not your average team roper LOL, and he works great for him.
I rode a horse that had a ton of heart and want to, his hind end never cooperated with him though. It wasn't a training issue. Do you have any videos? |
|
| |
|
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 966
Location: Loco,Ok | The horse has to step over their tracks. The farther the better. Those always stepping up under themselves. Stop harder turn better. Balanced. |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | Conformation, lack of fitness or soundness problem. Going faster is easier, going slower in small circles is always harder. Since he is swapping off leads behind, my guess is a stifle issue which may be due to his conformation. Is he better in one direction or does he swap off in both directions?
Keeping your outside leg on him to help hold his lead and supporting the inside shoulder to keep him from dropping or counter bending should help him hold the lead front and back. Work on riding him correctly in larger circles and then spiral down slowly to smaller circles. Some horses can just work off their hindquarters easier than others and it all goes back to conformation.
|
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 41
| This can either be a training issue or a soreness issue. If this was an older horse that stopped working well, I'd be more concerned about pain. With a young horse like this, I'd try to address the training first. It is 100% possible for a horse to have "buttons," but to lack the fundamental skill of collection. If he works fine for your husband, he might know how to collect and just not be ready to do it without any help from the rider yet. I'd still do the same exercises, but focus on your riding as well. As another note, the lope is often seen as a the "main" gait, but most skills are actually built and "installed" at the trot.
There are a few things I'd do if this was my horse:
1) Many, many transitions. Walk to trot, walk to lope, trot to lope, lope to trot, lope to walk, etc. But here's the trick -- you have to do them correctly, asking for the right impulsion. You want to be driving him forward into the bridle with your seat and legs, not pulling on the bit to bring his head back to you to ask him to collect. There are some really good articles about this out there (some people call it riding "back to front"). Prepare him for the transitions, let him know what is coming next with your seat, legs, and hands. These transitions shouldn't be sloppy. Eventually, they should be one smooth stride from one gait to another.
2) A lot of lengthening and shortening the stride at walk/trot/lope. Ask him for tiny steps for a bit, then normal ones, then some really extended flowing strides. You can change it up -- big to normal to small or big to small or small to big, etc. This isn't so much a change of speed as it is a change of the stride size. Use your seat to ask for these adjustments and to support him. At the trot, it can sometimes help them differentiate what you want if you sit the small stride and post the big stride. Either shortening or extending will be much harder for him, so do extra of the one he's weak on. Usually for horses like yours, it's the shortening because they can get by with not moving correctly when extending, but shortening is hard.
3) At the trot and lope, start on a big circle and gradually make it smaller and smaller using outside leg pressure (but keeping the correct bend and impulsion) until he's struggling but can still hold it for a few strides. when he hits that point, let him make the circle larger and repeat. Gradually, he will get stronger and will be able to do 3 correct strides on that smallest size circle, then 4, then 5, and so on. Once he can do the whole circle, you can make the smallest circle even smaller until you are at something that is about the size of the path around a barrel.
4) Possibly some uphill trotting to strengthen that hind end.
I'll probably think of a few more exercises I didn't include here as well. Honestly, 2-3 lessons with a really good trainer -- not even a barrel horse trainer, maybe a dressage trainer or a reining trainer -- might help here. |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 41
| dashnlotti - 2017-11-02 3:34 PM
BamaCanChaser - 2017-11-02 2:07 PM
It is taught.
I ride a lot of "broke" horses who have never been taught to keep their hip underneath them and not swinging to the outside.
How do I teach him?!?!
I'm all ears.
My 2 came to me finished barrel horses.
He isn't swinging it out, and definitely knows how to use his butt...but maybe there was a step missed somewhere.
Hubby is great but I'll admit he doesn't go in very many circles...they learn more quick movements like rollbacks and such, but aren't made to "hold" their form very long.
Another habit he has, he is almost too soft in his face, and wants to tuck and get heavy on his front end, like he's getting away from me. I get frustrated when he does this. And I try not to ride frustrated.
Seriously, all ears!!
Just read this part. That tucking his nose isn't him being truly soft, that's him searching for a way to escape the pressure. He's not trying to do anything wrong (in fact, he's trying to find the right answer to the problem you're asking him to figure out, he just hasn't quite gotten to the solution yet). You want to work on this now because once they get intimidated into riding behind the bridle, it's hard (but certainly not impossible) to change.
To do this, make sure you are being judicious about your hands because he sounds like he's pretty sensitive to bit pressure, so you are probably able to use much less hand than you'd expect on him. You also want to be careful not to bounce him in the mouth as he takes each stride. Drive him forward with your seat and legs when asking him to collect rather than bringing him back to you with your hands. Only ask him to collect and move properly for short periods at first because when he gets tired, he's going to try to find another way (i.e. coming behind the bridle). The big thing is to ride really softly with your hands.
Edited by 123barrelracer 2017-11-02 9:00 PM
|
|
| |
|
Boot Detective
Posts: 1900
| The fastest easiest way to show him how to use his inside hind leg is to do rollbacks into a fence. Long trot down the fence about 5-6 ft from the fence. The first few times I would stop him and back him up a step to place him on that inside hind leg before you ask for the rollback. Work up to long trotting and doing rollbacks without stopping. Then slow lope and do the same.
|
|
| |
|
  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Hes swapping because he isnt able to hold it .some 5 yr olds arent strong enough.. Hes tucking to escape ..He doesnt want to get on hindend.. so he dives and tucks.It can be a soreness issue Id have a vet look at him But it can clearly be a weakness area .. Id so some lateral work with him in a light bit .. get him more using his hind end that way first.. even at a walk . then proceed to half halts at a trot.. lots of transitions etc..it will make him sit back on hind and engage .use your body properly doing that with your core and seat..
Then Id do some long lining over ground poles
it may take a few months but first rule out hock soreness |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | dashnlotti - 2017-11-02 3:34 PM
BamaCanChaser - 2017-11-02 2:07 PM
It is taught.
I ride a lot of "broke" horses who have never been taught to keep their hip underneath them and not swinging to the outside.
How do I teach him?!?!
I'm all ears.
My 2 came to me finished barrel horses.
He isn't swinging it out, and definitely knows how to use his butt...but maybe there was a step missed somewhere.
Hubby is great but I'll admit he doesn't go in very many circles...they learn more quick movements like rollbacks and such, but aren't made to "hold" their form very long.
Another habit he has, he is almost too soft in his face, and wants to tuck and get heavy on his front end, like he's getting away from me. I get frustrated when he does this. And I try not to ride frustrated.
Seriously, all ears!!
I think some others have already done a much better job at explaining than I could.
But as far as heavy on the front end, I have one like this that I'm correcting right now and I'm really focusing on softening him up in the shoulder. Counterarchs, counterarchs, counterarchs. He can now counterarch while pivoting on his hind, at a walk, trot, and slowly building up to the lope. If we're working on something else and he dumps down on that shoulder I grab him right then and counterarch away. In 30 days he's like a different horse, huge improvement! |
|
| |
|
 Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | Don't you have to keep some pressure on the reins when asking them to ride up into the bridle? Or else couldn't they just carry their head up and out? |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 41
| slacy09 - 2017-11-03 10:56 AM
Don't you have to keep some pressure on the reins when asking them to ride up into the bridle? Or else couldn't they just carry their head up and out?
Yes, but that shouldn't be where the collection is coming from. It should be more of a soft feel in the bridle than actual pressure. You know that moment before the bit actually makes solid contact with the bars of the horse's mouth, but the horse can already feel what's happening and can respond? That's the kind of feel I try for. I'm doing a really poor job explaining this -- there are some good articles that can do much better.
And of course, this is just my $0.02. All I know is that before I understood this, I spent a lot of time cranking on my horses' heads to get them looking like they were "collected" without ever actually getting them driving from the hind end. Then one day I rode a young horse with a trainer who told me, "Your colt is soft, but you're not letting him come through himself and drive from behind. Think about pushing your hands forward with only the lightest feel on the reins and use your seat to make him move out with some energy. You can't collect a horse from the bridle, you have to do it from the hind end forward!" And suddenly I could feel that hind leg driving up underneath. |
|
| |
|
Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | your not supposed to ride the head .. ride his hind..
once he transfer weight back there you shouldnt have much pressure in your hands....if you are blocking him in his head to Look like hes collected and engaged thats bad training.. it wont help..a horse engaged truly will carry his weight from back to over his back and carry you.. BUT it takes time to get strength and most 5 yr olds arent strong enough..fake collection and head set isnt same ..
|
|
| |
|
Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | slacy09 - 2017-11-03 11:56 AM Don't you have to keep some pressure on the reins when asking them to ride up into the bridle? Or else couldn't they just carry their head up and out? why do you want to block them? you can half halt and release and do this in transtions to.. its a process and takes time to do it correctly..:) alot of our 5 yr olds we dont car where the head is when working on this.. we care where the body is and hind.. but lateral work will improve that alot.. get them thinking of their hind ..once you do this and feel like they are engaging more then you start suppling and asking them to round up ..if thats what you all want to do..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2017-11-03 8:15 PM
|
|
| |
|
Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | Bibliafarm - 2017-11-03 8:08 PM slacy09 - 2017-11-03 11:56 AM Don't you have to keep some pressure on the reins when asking them to ride up into the bridle? Or else couldn't they just carry their head up and out? why do you want to block them? you can half halt and release and do this in transtions to.. its a process and takes time to do it correctly..:) alot of our 5 yr olds we dont car where the head is when working on this.. we care where the body is and hind.. but lateral work will improve that alot.. get them thinking of their hind ..once you do this and feel like they are engaging more then you start suppling and asking them to round up ..if thats what you all want to do..
Thank you! I've always thought you shouldn't let them carry their nose out. My mare is 4 and she carries her head higher with nose out than I like. When I ask her to bring it back she will. So here's my other question. If you don't have pressure on the reins when you ask to ride up into bridle, how do you keep them from just picking up the pace. I was also taught to put some pressure on the reins when asking them to ride up into bridle. |
|
| |
Folks on-line