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 Expert
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| Has BHW really not discussed all of the PSSM stuff currently going on or have those post already been zapped for some reason? | |
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 "Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | They have been zapped!
I think that the people who are so upset about the findings of the PSSM TYPE 2 research are missing some crucial information. They are missing a huge point. Owners, like me, who have had the experience of spending thousands of dollars on incorrect diagnosis after incorrect diagnosis by the TOP and WELL-RESPECTED vets and putting our hurting horses through unnecessary injections, surgeries, and exercise programs that didn’t work- we see and understand that this needs to get out. This needs to be shared! If information that I have shared has helped one horse and one owner, then it is absolutely worth all of the backlash! AND IT HAS! I had so many private messages and phone calls with people asking me if the symptoms their horses had could be PSSM. I had many contact me later, saying that they had made changes and it had helped their horses. People who were THANKFUL for me sharing the information that some of you are wanting to keep quiet just because honesty is so under appreciated today. We are all so scared to speak the truth for fear of offending someone. It has gotten ridiculous! You cannot deny that this is VERY REAL with VERY REAL CONSEQUENCES. And if you are truly on the horses side and truly wanting to improve the breed, you will be honest with yourself and others. Learn, research, and share the knowledge. This is not going away! Five years ago I tested two of my 3 barrel horses via muscle biopsy and the progress that has been made has been amazing! I’m trying to save others from the heartbreak, unnecessary money loss, unnecessary medical procedures and unnecessary suffering. Our horses are at our mercy. They can’t help themselves. Mother Nature can’t even help them because we are the ones playing god with their breeding and selection. We need to be HONEST and open about where the research is taking us. We can’t undo what is already done, but we can make better informed choices from here!
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Member
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| The topic was zapped. I'm going to repost here what I posted on the thread that is now gone.
Let me start off by saying that I completely support research into PSSM2 genetic testing and believe it is irresponsible not to use the research-backed genetic tools we have available (i.e. the 5 panel test) in making breeding decisions.
However, it is inconceivable to me that some independent, profit-driven company's unverified genetic test is being taken as the PSSM2 Gospel -- or even being used as anything more than one POSSIBLE guidepost on the path to diagnosing disease. To my knowledge, EquiSeq has published zero scientific literature supporting their test, much less something in a well-respected, peer-reviewed journal. If I recall correctly, they at one point set deadlines (which have since come and passed) for publishing a paper and have been promising some type of scientific backing for their work for years now.
Continuing to take people's money for an unverified test with NO reported scientific backing while claiming to be scientists who are in it purely for the horse is borderline unethical. When EquiSeq was running a lower cost test for public use for a few months while submitting a paper for publication, that was fine. What is happening now is wrong -- and instead of standing up to require integrity and good science from the people raking in the money, the horse community continues to feed the beast. Honestly, given that people continue to trust their test implicitly without any proof, why should EquiSeq publish anything and risk problems with their test being revealed? Just because people have PhDs or DVMs doesn't mean that their work doesn't have to be checked and proven before it is considered to be scientifically accurate. Even experienced, well-trained people with the best of intentions make mistakes. It is more common than people would think for months or years of work to be thrown out because other scientists discover a problem with the work when it is going through the peer review process.
If EquiSeq has published something that I am not aware of, I sincerely apologize and would love to see it, so please post a link! If Dr. Paul Szauter and his team have a draft paper in the works for publication, I'd also like to hear about it because I believe the EquiSeq team probably has good intentions and I genuinely WANT this test to be valid so that we can find a better way forward. But desire and optimism alone do not make it science! If and when this becomes science, I will 100% support it. | |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | It might be best to ask Paul personally. You can look him up on Facebook and send him a private message. He is great about getting back to people. I can tell you that I participated in their beginning studies on type two because I already had two type two horses with muscle biopsies from a university. They took hair samples and requested blood samples and and sent me The results free of charge. This was in the beginning stages that they offered for people to get involved free of charge. That was before they had identified the genes. I am assuming it is no longer free because they have now identified the genes, so what would they gain by giving out nothing but free tests to everyone? How would they continue to support their research? Somebody has to pay? I did, however, read several statements from several owners of one stallion’s get say that they were also offered free testing because they suspected that stallion as type 2 positive and were wanting to confirm their suspicions. | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| annemarea - 2018-04-02 10:44 AM It might be best to ask Paul personally. You can look him up on Facebook and send him a private message. He is great about getting back to people. I can tell you that I participated in their beginning studies on type two because I already had two type two horses with muscle biopsies from a university. They took hair samples and requested blood samples and and sent me The results free of charge. This was in the beginning stages that they offered for people to get involved free of charge. That was before they had identified the genes. I am assuming it is no longer free because they have now identified the genes, so what would they gain by giving out nothing but free tests to everyone? How would they continue to support their research? Somebody has to pay? I did, however, read several statements from several owners of one stallion’s get say that they were also offered free testing because they suspected that stallion as type 2 positive and were wanting to confirm their suspicions.
It is my understanding from his posts on Facebook that they have yet to identify the gene and when they do the findings will not be revealed until it goes through the proper channels of scientific peer reviews. Bottom line, I hope all this discussion results in better education and breeding. | |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I find this topic very interesting and wasn't aware they test wasn't proven.
What are some of the symptoms? I know tying up is an issue but a lot of people refer to certain "traits" or training difficulties with suspected PSSM2 horses. What are those?
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | My two Type 2 horses really didn’t tie up. In my mare’s 14 years she only tied up once. The other horse never tied up. They simply showed signs of muscle soreness particularly in their back and hindquarters. They also showed hind end lameness which most vets told me were hock or stifle problems. They hated to be groomed and they hated to be saddled. They wanted to buck. The mare was very dangerous when she was hurting the most. They also showed colic-like symptoms often. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 141
| The PSSM people do get out of hand though.
Their horse gets hit by a car- "That **** PSSM!" | |
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Member
Posts: 41
| annemarea - 2018-04-02 10:44 AM
It might be best to ask Paul personally. You can look him up on Facebook and send him a private message. He is great about getting back to people. I can tell you that I participated in their beginning studies on type two because I already had two type two horses with muscle biopsies from a university. They took hair samples and requested blood samples and and sent me The results free of charge. This was in the beginning stages that they offered for people to get involved free of charge. That was before they had identified the genes. I am assuming it is no longer free because they have now identified the genes, so what would they gain by giving out nothing but free tests to everyone? How would they continue to support their research? Somebody has to pay? I did, however, read several statements from several owners of one stallion’s get say that they were also offered free testing because they suspected that stallion as type 2 positive and were wanting to confirm their suspicions.
What I want to see is not a Facebook message with vague, handwavy answers. It is a real, serious scientific document that has gone through the appropriate channels and has step-by-step, logical explanations of the methods and results. Regardless, the burden of proof is Equiseq's responsibility, not mine or anyone else's. Because PSSM2 is a topic of interest to me and I have followed Paul's Facebook posts, I may reach out to him for myself (with a critical eye towards good science) -- but that has little or nothing to do with whether his test is valid.
Yes, someone has to pay and whether an individual wants to give money a profit-driven company (that plans to make a bundle eventually) with no possibility of getting any of that bundle for his/her investment in the company is everyone's own personal choice. But for me, I'd rather not pay $249 to a capitalistic company for a test that may or may not work. My issue is with the promotion of this test as being scientifically backed -- and then also with the hordes of people blindly and dogmatically supporting this unverified test (and then using it to condemn certain bloodlines, people, and businesses).
Edited by 123barrelracer 2018-04-02 11:15 AM
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | annemarea - 2018-04-02 11:44 AM It might be best to ask Paul personally. You can look him up on Facebook and send him a private message. He is great about getting back to people. I can tell you that I participated in their beginning studies on type two because I already had two type two horses with muscle biopsies from a university. They took hair samples and requested blood samples and and sent me The results free of charge. This was in the beginning stages that they offered for people to get involved free of charge. That was before they had identified the genes. I am assuming it is no longer free because they have now identified the genes, so what would they gain by giving out nothing but free tests to everyone? How would they continue to support their research? Somebody has to pay? I did, however, read several statements from several owners of one stallion’s get say that they were also offered free testing because they suspected that stallion as type 2 positive and were wanting to confirm their suspicions.
so does his fake science become less fake when you talk to him on FB?
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Member
Posts: 41
| annemarea - 2018-04-02 10:09 AM
They have been zapped!
I think that the people who are so upset about the findings of the PSSM TYPE 2 research are missing some crucial information. They are missing a huge point. Owners, like me, who have had the experience of spending thousands of dollars on incorrect diagnosis after incorrect diagnosis by the TOP and WELL-RESPECTED vets and putting our hurting horses through unnecessary injections, surgeries, and exercise programs that didn’t work- we see and understand that this needs to get out. This needs to be shared! If information that I have shared has helped one horse and one owner, then it is absolutely worth all of the backlash! AND IT HAS! I had so many private messages and phone calls with people asking me if the symptoms their horses had could be PSSM. I had many contact me later, saying that they had made changes and it had helped their horses. People who were THANKFUL for me sharing the information that some of you are wanting to keep quiet just because honesty is so under appreciated today. We are all so scared to speak the truth for fear of offending someone. It has gotten ridiculous! You cannot deny that this is VERY REAL with VERY REAL CONSEQUENCES. And if you are truly on the horses side and truly wanting to improve the breed, you will be honest with yourself and others. Learn, research, and share the knowledge. This is not going away! Five years ago I tested two of my 3 barrel horses via muscle biopsy and the progress that has been made has been amazing! I’m trying to save others from the heartbreak, unnecessary money loss, unnecessary medical procedures and unnecessary suffering. Our horses are at our mercy. They can’t help themselves. Mother Nature can’t even help them because we are the ones playing god with their breeding and selection. We need to be HONEST and open about where the research is taking us. We can’t undo what is already done, but we can make better informed choices from here!
Yes, science has shown that PSSM2 is real and can have devastating consequences. Yes, science has shown that PSSM2 can be diagnosed from a muscle biopsy. NO, science has NOT shown that PSSM2 can be diagnosed from a genetic test AT THIS TIME.
People aren't trying to silence any "truth" -- there is simply no truth to silence. | |
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| 123barrelracer - 2018-04-02 9:08 AM annemarea - 2018-04-02 10:44 AM It might be best to ask Paul personally. You can look him up on Facebook and send him a private message. He is great about getting back to people. I can tell you that I participated in their beginning studies on type two because I already had two type two horses with muscle biopsies from a university. They took hair samples and requested blood samples and and sent me The results free of charge. This was in the beginning stages that they offered for people to get involved free of charge. That was before they had identified the genes. I am assuming it is no longer free because they have now identified the genes, so what would they gain by giving out nothing but free tests to everyone? How would they continue to support their research? Somebody has to pay? I did, however, read several statements from several owners of one stallion’s get say that they were also offered free testing because they suspected that stallion as type 2 positive and were wanting to confirm their suspicions. What I want to see is not a Facebook message with vague, handwavy answers. It is a real, serious scientific document that has gone through the appropriate channels and has step-by-step, logical explanations of the methods and results. Regardless, the burden of proof is Equiseq's responsibility, not mine or anyone else's. Because PSSM2 is a topic of interest to me and I have followed Paul's Facebook posts, I may reach out to him for myself (with a critical eye towards good science ) -- but that has little or nothing to do with whether his test is valid. Yes, someone has to pay and whether an individual wants to give money a profit-driven company (that plans to make a bundle eventually ) with no possibility of getting any of that bundle for his/her investment in the company is everyone's own personal choice. But for me, I'd rather not pay $249 to a capitalistic company for a test that may or may not work. My issue is with the promotion of this test as being scientifically backed -- and then also with the hordes of people blindly and dogmatically supporting this unverified test (and then using it to condemn certain bloodlines, people, and businesses ).
This is simply your choice and I totally get where you are coming from. BUT for those who have symptomatic horses or horses with un-explained issues that they cannot find diagnoses for then this "Un-scientific Hair Test" is a lifeline. And bonus, it ACTUALLY HELPS owners manage the symptoms in these horses.
Whether you or I believe in the 'science' or lack thereof, is a totally moot point as far as these owners are concerned.
I have been a member of the Facebook group for a couple years now, I have not spent a dime on EquiSeq testing. I have seen the progression that this testing has led to and the "success" posts are becoming more and more frequent due to the results they have been given.
The post last Friday about the popular stallion was posted within the forum group, which is why it was worded the way that it was. That stallion had been discussed within that group prior to those results, so those of us who are actually interested in learning more about PSSM, the variants, the management, how the different variants interact, etc. were not surprised in the least that he was positive. There are still MANY, MANY, MANY questions to be answered and pieces of the puzzle to be found but the only way to do that is awareness, knowledge and first-hand experiences.
So if that post intrigues just one more person to actually open their mind and learn as much about this disease as they can then it was a success.
Whether the company providing this $249 testing is "proven", "peer-reviewed", "capitalistic" does not matter to the symptomatic horses that it is actually HELPING. And the owners paying for it are much happier about paying that fee when they get answers that actually provide some relief to these suffering horses, rather than the THOUSANDS many have forked out to numerous vets for this test, that test, medication, surgeries, etc. that resulted in ZERO relief or improvement.
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Member
Posts: 41
| wishingforsun - 2018-04-02 2:55 PM
123barrelracer - 2018-04-02 9:08 AM annemarea - 2018-04-02 10:44 AM It might be best to ask Paul personally. You can look him up on Facebook and send him a private message. He is great about getting back to people. I can tell you that I participated in their beginning studies on type two because I already had two type two horses with muscle biopsies from a university. They took hair samples and requested blood samples and and sent me The results free of charge. This was in the beginning stages that they offered for people to get involved free of charge. That was before they had identified the genes. I am assuming it is no longer free because they have now identified the genes, so what would they gain by giving out nothing but free tests to everyone? How would they continue to support their research? Somebody has to pay? I did, however, read several statements from several owners of one stallion’s get say that they were also offered free testing because they suspected that stallion as type 2 positive and were wanting to confirm their suspicions. What I want to see is not a Facebook message with vague, handwavy answers. It is a real, serious scientific document that has gone through the appropriate channels and has step-by-step, logical explanations of the methods and results. Regardless, the burden of proof is Equiseq's responsibility, not mine or anyone else's. Because PSSM2 is a topic of interest to me and I have followed Paul's Facebook posts, I may reach out to him for myself (with a critical eye towards good science ) -- but that has little or nothing to do with whether his test is valid. Yes, someone has to pay and whether an individual wants to give money a profit-driven company (that plans to make a bundle eventually ) with no possibility of getting any of that bundle for his/her investment in the company is everyone's own personal choice. But for me, I'd rather not pay $249 to a capitalistic company for a test that may or may not work. My issue is with the promotion of this test as being scientifically backed -- and then also with the hordes of people blindly and dogmatically supporting this unverified test (and then using it to condemn certain bloodlines, people, and businesses ).
Whether you or I believe in the 'science' or lack thereof, is a totally moot point as far as these owners are concerned.
I have been a member of the Facebook group for a couple years now, I have not spent a dime on EquiSeq testing. I have seen the progression that this testing has led to and the "success" posts are becoming more and more frequent due to the results they have been given.Â
The post last Friday about the popular stallion was posted within the forum group, which is why it was worded the way that it was. That stallion had been discussed within that group prior to those results, so those of us who are actually interested in learning more about PSSM, the variants, the management, how the different variants interact, etc. were not surprised in the least that he was positive. There are still MANY, MANY, MANY questions to be answered and pieces of the puzzle to be found but the only way to do that is awareness, knowledge and first-hand experiences.
So if that post intrigues just one more person to actually open their mind and learn as much about this disease as they can then it was a success.
Whether the company providing this $249 testing is "proven", "peer-reviewed", "capitalistic" does not matter to the symptomatic horses that it is actually HELPING. And the owners paying for it are much happier about paying that fee when they get answers that actually provide some relief to these suffering horses, rather than the THOUSANDS many have forked out to numerous vets for this test, that test, medication, surgeries, etc. that resulted in ZERO relief or improvement. Â
Â
100% right, people who are willing to take the risk of spending money on an unproven test can do that -- and they may have anecdotal evidence that it works and has helped their horses. I would never discourage someone from using it as a possible indicator to diagnose their horse. It becomes wrong when people start considering this test to be infallible and scientifically proven, then use it in the defamation of people's horses, businesses, and livelihoods. It is also wrong when people are duped into purchasing the test without realizing that, as of now, it has not met the rigors of being good science.
Here's the thing about science -- whether or not you "believe" it, it's true. This test may work, but it hasn't met the fundamental requirements of being a scientific procedure yet, so let's not pretend it has. | |
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 The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | wishingforsun - 2018-04-02 1:55 PM
123barrelracer - 2018-04-02 9:08 AM annemarea - 2018-04-02 10:44 AM It might be best to ask Paul personally. You can look him up on Facebook and send him a private message. He is great about getting back to people. I can tell you that I participated in their beginning studies on type two because I already had two type two horses with muscle biopsies from a university. They took hair samples and requested blood samples and and sent me The results free of charge. This was in the beginning stages that they offered for people to get involved free of charge. That was before they had identified the genes. I am assuming it is no longer free because they have now identified the genes, so what would they gain by giving out nothing but free tests to everyone? How would they continue to support their research? Somebody has to pay? I did, however, read several statements from several owners of one stallion’s get say that they were also offered free testing because they suspected that stallion as type 2 positive and were wanting to confirm their suspicions. What I want to see is not a Facebook message with vague, handwavy answers. It is a real, serious scientific document that has gone through the appropriate channels and has step-by-step, logical explanations of the methods and results. Regardless, the burden of proof is Equiseq's responsibility, not mine or anyone else's. Because PSSM2 is a topic of interest to me and I have followed Paul's Facebook posts, I may reach out to him for myself (with a critical eye towards good science ) -- but that has little or nothing to do with whether his test is valid. Yes, someone has to pay and whether an individual wants to give money a profit-driven company (that plans to make a bundle eventually ) with no possibility of getting any of that bundle for his/her investment in the company is everyone's own personal choice. But for me, I'd rather not pay $249 to a capitalistic company for a test that may or may not work. My issue is with the promotion of this test as being scientifically backed -- and then also with the hordes of people blindly and dogmatically supporting this unverified test (and then using it to condemn certain bloodlines, people, and businesses ).
Whether you or I believe in the 'science' or lack thereof, is a totally moot point as far as these owners are concerned.
I have been a member of the Facebook group for a couple years now, I have not spent a dime on EquiSeq testing. I have seen the progression that this testing has led to and the "success" posts are becoming more and more frequent due to the results they have been given.Â
The post last Friday about the popular stallion was posted within the forum group, which is why it was worded the way that it was. That stallion had been discussed within that group prior to those results, so those of us who are actually interested in learning more about PSSM, the variants, the management, how the different variants interact, etc. were not surprised in the least that he was positive. There are still MANY, MANY, MANY questions to be answered and pieces of the puzzle to be found but the only way to do that is awareness, knowledge and first-hand experiences.
So if that post intrigues just one more person to actually open their mind and learn as much about this disease as they can then it was a success.
Whether the company providing this $249 testing is "proven", "peer-reviewed", "capitalistic" does not matter to the symptomatic horses that it is actually HELPING. And the owners paying for it are much happier about paying that fee when they get answers that actually provide some relief to these suffering horses, rather than the THOUSANDS many have forked out to numerous vets for this test, that test, medication, surgeries, etc. that resulted in ZERO relief or improvement. Â
Â
I don't think the "test" has helped these symptomatic horses, but the knowledge of PSSM has. People come onto the forum (like me) and learn a whole lot about it. If I had a horse with these PSSM symptons, I first would change the horses diet and see if that changes anything before I would do the test. I am glad that people are now more aware of PSSM and maybe can help some of these horses. Until it's proven scientifically(PSSM2), we can't blame or accuse certain stallions without absolute proof. JMO! | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 615
Location: Wyoming | I think most people that are non believers need to have a symptomatic Pssm horse in order to acknowledge that it is real. | |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| perfectturns - 2018-04-02 5:15 PM
I think most people that are non believers need to have a symptomatic Pssm horse in order to acknowledge that it is real.
I have not read any posts that challenge the existence of PSSM itself | |
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Member
Posts: 41
| perfectturns - 2018-04-02 5:15 PM
I think most people that are non believers need to have a symptomatic Pssm horse in order to acknowledge that it is real.
Are people suggesting the disease itself isn't real?
I'm only saying that the test has not been adequately shown to be valid...yet. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 615
Location: Wyoming | 123barrelracer - 2018-04-02 5:21 PM
perfectturns - 2018-04-02 5:15 PM
I think most people that are non believers need to have a symptomatic Pssm horse in order to acknowledge that it is real.
Are people suggesting the disease itself isn't real?
I'm only saying that the test has not been adequately shown to be valid...yet.
I’ve seen people on Facebook denying its existence, especially when a well known bloodline is involved. | |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | perfectturns - 2018-04-02 6:35 PM 123barrelracer - 2018-04-02 5:21 PM perfectturns - 2018-04-02 5:15 PM I think most people that are non believers need to have a symptomatic Pssm horse in order to acknowledge that it is real. Are people suggesting the disease itself isn't real? I'm only saying that the test has not been adequately shown to be valid...yet. I’ve seen people on Facebook denying its existence, especially when a well known bloodline is involved.
No way | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 824
Location: Duvall, WA | I have wanted to stay out of this discussion because I know how difficult it is and how passionate people are on both sides. But let me just say as a dog breeder I have seen EXACTLY the same conversations when all the new DNA tests came out for canine diseases: The tests are flawed, the people exposing carriers are jerks, the people who developed the tests are ripping us off, the affected dogs are fine. All of these statements are valid, to some degree. The first test developed for Progressive Retinal Atrophy in Labradors was terribly flawed, people freaked out and overreacted on both sides, some neutering perfectly healthy dogs, some refusing to test at all. It was really ugly. But it was ugly before the test was developed, with dogs going blind at seven years old having sired hundreds of puppies and crazy witch hunts and guessing who the carriers were in every pedigree.
Anyway, twenty years later and DNA testing is the norm for all of our canine breeding stock. Tests are $30-$60 (they were expensive at first) and we can test for dozens and dozens of diseases with a simple cheek swab. People are still arguing about whether breeding to carriers and/or affected dogs is appropriate, but the bottom line is many of our worrisome diseases are a thing of the past. We can be certain, for example, that we will never breed another Labrador affected with Exercise Induced Collapse. And for that we are thankful.
I understand that horses are a whole different ballgame. That you have only one foal per breeding and it takes years and years to know what that horse is, while dogs can have ten to a litter and you know what you have in a year or so. So the financial, emotional, and just plain old work put into a horse up to maturity does not compare to one of my show dogs, and for that I have enormous sympathy to everyone involved in horse breeding these days. But my advice is embrace the science as best you can, and use what you know to make better breeding choices. PSSM sucks. If it can be thoughtfully bred away from, do your best to do so. Do not shoot the messenger, take deep breaths, keep learning and move foreward. Your breeding programs and our horses will be better off in the long run. | |
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