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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 502
Location: United States | Would love to read opinion and discussion. If an owner had a proven, solid 1D horse with no name pedigree - 5 panel N/N and bred to a Pink Buckle Stallion, would this be desirable to the market to assist in expansion of the gene pool and give random pedigree a chance to bloom with the $$$ incentive? |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
  
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | pippy - 2018-10-10 7:18 AM
Would love to read opinion and discussion. If an owner had a proven, solid 1D horse with no name pedigree - 5 panel N/N and bred to a Pink Buckle Stallion, would this be desirable to the market to assist in expansion of the gene pool and give random pedigree a chance to bloom with the $$$ incentive?
When buying prospects people want a pedigree they can be proud of and that they know they can get along with. This is coming from a seller. It doesn't matter what the people with no money want. |
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 Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | OregonBR - 2018-10-10 9:51 AM pippy - 2018-10-10 7:18 AM Would love to read opinion and discussion. If an owner had a proven, solid 1D horse with no name pedigree - 5 panel N/N and bred to a Pink Buckle Stallion, would this be desirable to the market to assist in expansion of the gene pool and give random pedigree a chance to bloom with the $$$ incentive? When buying prospects people want a pedigree they can be proud of and that they know they can get along with. This is coming from a seller. It doesn't matter what the people with no money want.
Agreed. Anyone looking to buy a prospect are looking for specific pedigrees to buy, market, and resell. They want to be able to predict that horse and since they are the son of, daughter of, etc they can easily predict the temperment, riding style, training time, etc. It leaves little to guess/chance.
A horse with no name on the mother's side MAY sell to the right person but you won't get your money's worth compared to the others in the same category. If you get the prospect sold that is. If you do ge them sold for the lower price is that new owner going to have the time, money, resources, and experience to get your Mare's baby to the winners circle? More than likely no if we are honest with ourselves.
Accomplishments of the mare mean nothing to certain people if she isn't a daughter of a So and So.
I think there will be people to reply that will tell you the exact opposite but honestly those people have more than likely never had to market a prospect to someone with a no name mare right beside a prospect out of an own daughter of...
My opinion of course.  |
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Veteran
Posts: 141
| This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality.
When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning.
This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AMThis is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors. Agreed. We are not saying known bloodlines is not an important part when picking a prospect but very little to unknown lines excelling in the sport is important too. It opens a new door to the longevity and future of the industry.
Edited by WetSaddleBlankets 2018-10-10 11:52 AM
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 That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AM This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors.
I'm interested in some examples of Perceived Quality. I think there are all sorts of combinations out there that appeal to different folks. Some may want a true 1D stallion others may want a playday horse that is pretty. For me it all comes to statitics. Something concrete where I can compare like alternatives. |
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 Miss Laundry Misshap
Posts: 5271
| Whiteboy - 2018-10-10 12:04 PM joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AM This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors. I'm interested in some examples of Perceived Quality. I think there are all sorts of combinations out there that appeal to different folks. Some may want a true 1D stallion others may want a playday horse that is pretty. For me it all comes to statitics. Something concrete where I can compare like alternatives.
I'll bite...
Perceived quality would be that Dash Ta Fames tend to be 1D barrel horses. I know a few who's mind went out the window and are now trail nags. Now, the statistics on Dash Ta Fames tell us that as a sire, he's definitely top notch, but buying a yearling doesn't equate 1D. Too many variables, but people pay 25K for one on the perceived notion that it has better odds of being 1D. But the variables have to line up in order to make the colt into a superstar.
When the DTF doesn't end up 1D, and it's their first DTF, they may end up hating the bloodline because they paid 25K for a trail nag. They end up liking the Genuine Doc grandson because he met whatever expectations they had and Mesa Leavitt's Junior horse was one they watched for years. |
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Veteran
Posts: 141
| Whiteboy - 2018-10-10 12:04 PM
joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AM This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors.
I'm interested in some examples of Perceived Quality.  I think there are all sorts of combinations out there that appeal to different folks. Some may want a true 1D stallion others may want a playday horse that is pretty. For me it all comes to statitics. Something concrete where I can compare like alternatives. Â
Any 6 yo and younger stud enrolled in the PB is an example of perceived quality unless it ran and won, not to mention all the 3d turds running around that people brag about based solely on their papers.
Irrational people would rather breed a well papered do nothing mare vs a proven 1D winning mare, that should say something about the industry. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | joemama - 2018-10-10 10:32 AM
Whiteboy - 2018-10-10 12:04 PM
joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AM This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors.
I'm interested in some examples of Perceived Quality.  I think there are all sorts of combinations out there that appeal to different folks. Some may want a true 1D stallion others may want a playday horse that is pretty. For me it all comes to statitics. Something concrete where I can compare like alternatives. Â
Any 6 yo and younger stud enrolled in the PB is an example of perceived quality unless it ran and won, not to mention all the 3d turds running around that people brag about based solely on their papers.
Irrational people would rather breed a well papered do nothing mare vs a proven 1D winning mare, that should say something about the industry.
It says a LOT about the buyers who say one thing and do another. |
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple.
I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-)
As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first. |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Liana D - 2018-10-10 2:39 PM I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple. I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-) As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first.
There in lies the problem.
Market an unproven prospect with a no name mare on the bottom side for the PB... Next to impossible to do and get your money's worth.
I don't think this thread is about riding papers as most of the comment shave shifted towards.. I think the OP was talking about buyers being open to the idea that a no name mare could produce a winner for the PB. I don't see many buyers who know how to make a winner interested in a prospect like this. No prospect is proven... but pedigrees with winners on top and bottom seem to make people feel better about taking that chance because those pedigrees are predicatable. |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | Whiteboy - 2018-10-10 12:04 PM joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AM This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors. I'm interested in some examples of Perceived Quality. I think there are all sorts of combinations out there that appeal to different folks. Some may want a true 1D stallion others may want a playday horse that is pretty. For me it all comes to statitics. Something concrete where I can compare like alternatives.
I have a 10 yr old grandson of Frenchmans guy. ALL of his siblings (6-8 I believe) are running in the 1D. This horse is a freak-he's huge (16 hands 1500 pounds) he's won the 2D at an indoor race. He's a 3 1/2D horse-falls in the cracks most of the time. I paid more for him than any other horse I've ever bought as an unbroke 2 yr old-because of how he's bred. Don't get me wrong-he's a super nice animal-is a better heading horse than he will ever be a barrel horse and he's safe/fun. I know he has the ability to run 1D times (because honestly your comment about some may want a true 1D stallion kind of rubbed me the wrong way-who doesn't want to win wherever they go??) This horse does not have the heart end of story. Why? He's afraid, unconfident, Why? I'm not sure, he will put you in the right spot with ease when I'm heading steers-and I hate heading steers but I like riding him so, I head steers because he likes it :) sorry, a little off the OP's original question but I find myself wanting what is in the forefront of social media ALL the time, it's a trap! |
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 Saint Stacey
| PB is going to benefit the mediocre stallions that have been standing for a number of years with no real success get wise yet. The stallions already producing true 1D winners that are booked full year after year? Those ones won’t benefit much. I can’t see any barrel racer paying a $40,000 stud fee on One Famous Eagle just to have a PB foal. Or paying what his yearlings bring.
People are always talking about the shrinking gene pool. But if you go back in history, outcrosses seem to pop up. Even horses people say are outcrosses still go back to the same popular lines from the 1950’s and 60’s. Go back through all the Stallion Registers starting in the late 70’s, early 80’s and it was all DFC, EJ, SE. now you can’t hardly find a son by any of those stallions. Everything is now Corona Cartel, Mr Jess Perry. Barrel horses are still the most diverse pedigree wise because you can pull from race, cutting, reined cow horse, etc and still have a successful barrel horse. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 502
Location: United States | Hmmm... too bad their isn’t an incentive program for registered nobody mares bred to Pink buckle Stallions. It could encourage proven mare owners to step out of comfort zone and put faith in their horses that aren’t fiscally appreciated because of their “lack of” breeding. I’m not being sarcastic, I’d love to see the nobodies utilized. |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | If this no name bred mare has a big time record then I say yes it would be marketable. If just a local 1D mare then u might need to campaign the first one. The good thing about the PB is you don’t have to be in the 1D to get a good check. Also if the mare has really good confirmation it will help. I have been looking and I have seen some nice ones and some not so much to look at. |
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Saint Stacey
| pippy - 2018-10-10 5:20 PM
Hmmm... too bad their isn’t an incentive program for registered nobody mares bred to Pink buckle Stallions. It could encourage proven mare owners to step out of comfort zone and put faith in their horses that aren’t fiscally appreciated because of their “lack of” breeding. I’m not being sarcastic, I’d love to see the nobodies utilized.
Just because a mare runs in the 1D, that doesn’t mean she has the genetic ability to pass it onto her foals. That’s one reason why people like papers. Certain sires are known for their ability to produce daughters that produce winners. Royal Quick Dash, Bully Bullion, Dash Ta Fame, Tres Seis. That’s exactly why stallion owners give considerations to daughters of certain sires. While they might not all produce, you increase your odds on a certain bloodline.
Plus people are barn blind. How many times does a person go on the internet, asking for conformation opinions just so people will gush over the horse? Meanwhile people that have raised more than a few successful horses don’t say anything because they don’t see the same “beautiful horse” others see. Sorry, that’s just the reality.
Plus the fact from the day of conception to when the horse competes is anywhere from 4-6 years minimum. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AM This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors.
Agree 100%  |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | pippy - 2018-10-10 7:20 PM Hmmm... too bad their isn’t an incentive program for registered nobody mares bred to Pink buckle Stallions. It could encourage proven mare owners to step out of comfort zone and put faith in their horses that aren’t fiscally appreciated because of their “lack of” breeding. I’m not being sarcastic, I’d love to see the nobodies utilized.
If they are truly performers,,,,,,,they are not nobodies.
Pukes are pukes, no matter how many playdays they win |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 502
Location: United States | I wish 100% of the time mare power was taken more seriously when thinking of breeding. We have all seen SOME of the best bred bloom into nothings and yes there are many variables to a horses successes or lack of... We have also seen MANY non desirable no name yuckies, too. I take time to look at a mare, the way she runs, uses herself, her mind. I believe that someone who breeds a proven "no name mare" to a 5K plus stud strongly believes in their future abilities. As far as I am concerned, their offspring opportunity is the same as a unproven, pretty granddaughter that was injured in training that was "going to be a 1D". Of course its a free market, we can breed to stallions we want, and a horse is only worth what someone is willing to pay but it seems like the emphasis is an awful lot on the stallion. And to the person who mentioned the PB payout is great in all divisions, you nailed it. |
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Worlds Greatest Laugh
Location: North Dakota | While the stallions get paid into Pink Buckle, its really about the mares. Why do I think this, because I have ridden get out of mares that I have ridden. I believe talent and ability comes ALOT from the mare. There are exceptions but breeding Dash Ta Fame or Frenchmans Guy to a donkey still gets you a mule. I think the studs get too much credit and then again too much fault. #MarePower |
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