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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 534
 
| Pentosan, Aquaden or Legend?
Which one have you seen more results with?
Or what powder/mixes do you use in your feed to combat joint soreness that you've actually had work? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 5290
 
| RacingTheArabian - 2018-11-27 7:22 AM
Pentosan, Aquaden or Legend?
Which one have you seen more results with?
Or what powder/mixes do you use in your feed to combat joint soreness that you've actually had work?
Ive used all 3 with great results. Depends on what your treating... or preventing
Pentosan is good for horses who already have some joint damage.
Legend only lasts in their system 24-48 hours so I only give that the day before a run or morning of an evening run ( 12 hours out).
If you don't have any real issues then adequan is excellent and preventing damage as much as you can. I do 2 full rounds of adequan a year. Every 6 months. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 289
Location: Northeast SD | Adequan for preventing.
Have also heard good things about Fluidity from Oxygen I believe.
Edited by SoDak 2018-11-27 9:48 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 534
| FLITASTIC - 2018-11-27 9:24 AM
RacingTheArabian - 2018-11-27 7:22 AM
Pentosan, Aquaden or Legend?
Which one have you seen more results with?
Or what powder/mixes do you use in your feed to combat joint soreness that you've actually had work?
Ive used all 3 with great results. Depends on what your treating... or preventing
Pentosan is good for horses who already have some joint damage.
Legend only lasts in their system 24-48 hours so I only give that the day before a run or morning of an evening run ( 12 hours out ).
If you don't have any real issues then adequan is excellent and preventing damage as much as you can. I do 2 full rounds of adequan a year. Every 6 months.
Two rounds.. Like injecting the joint or through intravenous?
I was told all 3 can be done through IV. Once a week for four weeks and then once a month from there on out. But I just wasn't sure what to pick. My vet seems to think Pentosan through IV is the best out of all, but he isn't a performance vet. | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
 
Location: Texas | Adequan is best used if you do the full loading dose 2-3 times per year, not once a month.
I’ve heard other people say they really like pentosan, some more than adequan.
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Expert
Posts: 5290
| RacingTheArabian - 2018-11-27 8:36 AM
FLITASTIC - 2018-11-27 9:24 AM
RacingTheArabian - 2018-11-27 7:22 AM
Pentosan, Aquaden or Legend?
Which one have you seen more results with?
Or what powder/mixes do you use in your feed to combat joint soreness that you've actually had work?
Ive used all 3 with great results. Depends on what your treating... or preventing
Pentosan is good for horses who already have some joint damage.
Legend only lasts in their system 24-48 hours so I only give that the day before a run or morning of an evening run ( 12 hours out ).
If you don't have any real issues then adequan is excellent and preventing damage as much as you can. I do 2 full rounds of adequan a year. Every 6 months.
Two rounds.. Like injecting the joint or through intravenous?
I was told all 3 can be done through IV. Once a week for four weeks and then once a month from there on out. But I just wasn't sure what to pick. My vet seems to think Pentosan through IV is the best out of all, but he isn't a performance vet.
No, two rounds of adequan. A full adequan series is 7 shots, 4 days apart for 28 days. It has been proven that its more effective to do 2 full series a year rather than monthly with adequan. | |
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Expert
Posts: 5290
| Also consider Polyglycan. Its kind of a adequan/Legend combo given monthly. My vet started me on this years ago and really like it as well. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1395
Location: Missouri | FLITASTIC - 2018-11-27 11:38 AM
Also consider Polyglycan. Its kind of a adequan/Legend combo given monthly. My vet started me on this years ago and really like it as well.
I was going to suggest this. I have a horse who has been on injections of polyglycan for about 2 yrs now. Works beautifully for her. | |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | casualdust07 - 2018-11-27 11:16 AM Adequan is best used if you do the full loading dose 2-3 times per year, not once a month.
"Best" according to what? Research?
I often see people say that, but if you actually read the research for yourself, it doesn't say that.
So curious what you mean by "best". | |
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Expert
Posts: 5290
| r_beau - 2018-11-27 1:38 PM
casualdust07 - 2018-11-27 11:16 AM Adequan is best used if you do the full loading dose 2-3 times per year, not once a month.
"Best" according to what? Research? I often see people say that, but if you actually read the research for yourself, it doesn't say that. So curious what you mean by "best".
Luitpold did update its research and now recommends multiple loading doses per year rather than monthly. Research has shown that it is not as effective monthly. | |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | FLITASTIC - 2018-11-27 3:48 PM r_beau - 2018-11-27 1:38 PM casualdust07 - 2018-11-27 11:16 AM Adequan is best used if you do the full loading dose 2-3 times per year, not once a month. "Best" according to what? Research? I often see people say that, but if you actually read the research for yourself, it doesn't say that. So curious what you mean by "best". Luitpold did update its research and now recommends multiple loading doses per year rather than monthly. Research has shown that it is not as effective monthly.
The research only proved that the medication stays in the system for approximately 4 days, which is where they come up with the "every 4 days dosing". That makes sense to me.
What doesn't make sense, is why they chose 7 doses. The research makes no mention and did not study 7 doses. It just seems to be what they arbitratily chose to use for the course of the study.
It also doesn't make sense why they chose to recommend two series a year. The research makes no mention of this whatsoever.
The research never studied twice a year loading doses versus monthly. So I have no idea how the company can say monthly doses don't help when it has never been studied or compared.
And if you've read something different than I have, by all means, please post links and enlighten me. I will gladly change my stance if I've missed something or if the research has changed. But last I checked (and I"ll have to try to dig up the website link to the study to post) the research doesn't "prove" much of anything.
Edited by r_beau 2018-11-27 4:35 PM
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Expert
Posts: 5290
| r_beau - 2018-11-27 2:33 PM
FLITASTIC - 2018-11-27 3:48 PM r_beau - 2018-11-27 1:38 PM casualdust07 - 2018-11-27 11:16 AM Adequan is best used if you do the full loading dose 2-3 times per year, not once a month. "Best" according to what? Research? I often see people say that, but if you actually read the research for yourself, it doesn't say that. So curious what you mean by "best". Luitpold did update its research and now recommends multiple loading doses per year rather than monthly. Research has shown that it is not as effective monthly.
The research only proved that the medication stays in the system for approximately 4 days, which is where they come up with the "every 4 days dosing". That makes sense to me.
What doesn't make sense, is why they chose 7 doses. The research makes no mention and did not study 7 doses. It just seems to be what they arbitratily chose to use for the course of the study.
It also doesn't make sense why they chose to recommend two series a year. The research makes no mention of this whatsoever.
The research never studied twice a year loading doses versus monthly. So I have no idea how the company can say monthly doses don't help when it has never been studied or compared.
And if you've read something different than I have, by all means, please post links and enlighten me. I will gladly change my stance if I've missed something or if the research has changed. But last I checked (and I"ll have to try to dig up the website link to the study to post) the research doesn't "prove" much of anything.
My vet handed it to me years ago. Adequan takes almost 30 days to make it into the joint after injection. Its only detectible in the blood or something for 4 days but they used radioactive isotopes as markers and measured how much and how long it took to actually get into the joint. There is an almost immediate anti inflammatory effect with each dose but takes upwards of a month to get into the actual joint. 7 shots are needed, and the tissue needs to be repeatedly exposed over a 28 day period to maximize the amount making it into the joint. My vet did give me the research years ago, but I did not keep it. Monthly dose is not strong enough to maintain the level of drug into the joint. But giving it full series 2-3x a year has shown the maximum effect on the joint. Maybe Causal Dust will see this and answer. She is relatively new out of vet school and might be able to provide the research on paper. | |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | FLITASTIC - 2018-11-27 5:07 PM r_beau - 2018-11-27 2:33 PM FLITASTIC - 2018-11-27 3:48 PM r_beau - 2018-11-27 1:38 PM casualdust07 - 2018-11-27 11:16 AM Adequan is best used if you do the full loading dose 2-3 times per year, not once a month. "Best" according to what? Research?
I often see people say that, but if you actually read the research for yourself, it doesn't say that.
So curious what you mean by "best". Luitpold did update its research and now recommends multiple loading doses per year rather than monthly. Research has shown that it is not as effective monthly.
The research only proved that the medication stays in the system for approximately 4 days, which is where they come up with the "every 4 days dosing". That makes sense to me.
What doesn't make sense, is why they chose 7 doses. The research makes no mention and did not study 7 doses. It just seems to be what they arbitratily chose to use for the course of the study.
It also doesn't make sense why they chose to recommend two series a year. The research makes no mention of this whatsoever.
The research never studied twice a year loading doses versus monthly. So I have no idea how the company can say monthly doses don't help when it has never been studied or compared.
And if you've read something different than I have, by all means, please post links and enlighten me. I will gladly change my stance if I've missed something or if the research has changed. But last I checked (and I"ll have to try to dig up the website link to the study to post) the research doesn't "prove" much of anything. My vet handed it to me years ago. Adequan takes almost 30 days to make it into the joint after injection. Its only detectible in the blood or something for 4 days but they used radioactive isotopes as markers and measured how much and how long it took to actually get into the joint. There is an almost immediate anti inflammatory effect with each dose but takes upwards of a month to get into the actual joint. 7 shots are needed, and the tissue needs to be repeatedly exposed over a 28 day period to maximize the amount making it into the joint. My vet did give me the research years ago, but I did not keep it. Monthly dose is not strong enough to maintain the level of drug into the joint. But giving it full series 2-3x a year has shown the maximum effect on the joint. Maybe Causal Dust will see this and answer. She is relatively new out of vet school and might be able to provide the research on paper.
That one I am not familiar with. So yes, would love to see it if possible. Anyone have it???
So another question: Why wouldn't you give it every 4 days CONTINUOUSLY, if that is what it takes to maintain levels in the joint? Why stop at 28 days? Why only do 2-3 series a year, because obviously the joint levels are then doing to drop in-between the series. (Haha, this is an "if money was not an object" kind of question. )
How did they determine what level of drug is "needed" in the joint? (when they said a monthly dose doesn't give enough")
The only thing Luitpold quotes on their website is the study from 1993. This is just the link to the abstract. I was able to find the full version before, but can't seem to find it now (without buying a subscription). And I've always been "intrigued" that their website says in big letters: "Clinical significance of the above results is unknown."
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | r_beau - 2018-11-29 10:35 AM
FLITASTIC - 2018-11-27 5:07 PM r_beau - 2018-11-27 2:33 PM FLITASTIC - 2018-11-27 3:48 PM r_beau - 2018-11-27 1:38 PM casualdust07 - 2018-11-27 11:16 AM Adequan is best used if you do the full loading dose 2-3 times per year, not once a month. "Best" according to what? Research?
I often see people say that, but if you actually read the research for yourself, it doesn't say that.
So curious what you mean by "best". Luitpold did update its research and now recommends multiple loading doses per year rather than monthly. Research has shown that it is not as effective monthly.
The research only proved that the medication stays in the system for approximately 4 days, which is where they come up with the "every 4 days dosing". That makes sense to me.
What doesn't make sense, is why they chose 7 doses. The research makes no mention and did not study 7 doses. It just seems to be what they arbitratily chose to use for the course of the study.
It also doesn't make sense why they chose to recommend two series a year. The research makes no mention of this whatsoever.
The research never studied twice a year loading doses versus monthly. So I have no idea how the company can say monthly doses don't help when it has never been studied or compared.
And if you've read something different than I have, by all means, please post links and enlighten me. I will gladly change my stance if I've missed something or if the research has changed. But last I checked (and I"ll have to try to dig up the website link to the study to post) the research doesn't "prove" much of anything. My vet handed it to me years ago. Adequan takes almost 30 days to make it into the joint after injection. Its only detectible in the blood or something for 4 days but they used radioactive isotopes as markers and measured how much and how long it took to actually get into the joint. There is an almost immediate anti inflammatory effect with each dose but takes upwards of a month to get into the actual joint. 7 shots are needed, and the tissue needs to be repeatedly exposed over a 28 day period to maximize the amount making it into the joint. My vet did give me the research years ago, but I did not keep it. Monthly dose is not strong enough to maintain the level of drug into the joint. But giving it full series 2-3x a year has shown the maximum effect on the joint. Maybe Causal Dust will see this and answer. She is relatively new out of vet school and might be able to provide the research on paper.
So another question: Why wouldn't you give it every 4 days CONTINUOUSLY, if that is what it takes to maintain levels in the joint? Why stop at 28 days? Why only do 2-3 series a year, because obviously the joint levels are then doing to drop in-between the series. (Haha, this is an "if money was not an object" kind of question. )
How did they determine what level of drug is "needed" in the joint? (when they said a monthly dose doesn't give enough")
The only thing Luitpold quotes on their website is the study from 1993. This is just the link to the abstract. I was able to find the full version before, but can't seem to find it now (without buying a subscription). And I've always been "intrigued" that their website says in big letters: "Clinical significance of the above results is unknown."
This isn’t a study, but this vet does state Lutopold’s recommendation as of 2013. Also, in talking to one of the vets that has done tons of research/trials (Dr Gary White) on Adequan, for many years, the twice yearly dose is his recommendation.
As far as continuing with a frequent dose after loading, there are several people that will give it weekly during heavy competition.
I don’t think there’s any right or wrong, just what agrees with your budget ;-)
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | r_beau - 2018-11-27 3:38 PM
casualdust07 - 2018-11-27 11:16 AM Adequan is best used if you do the full loading dose 2-3 times per year, not once a month.
"Best" according to what? Research? I often see people say that, but if you actually read the research for yourself, it doesn't say that. So curious what you mean by "best".
Look, I read the research, I prescribe the stuff, I don’t really need an interrogation. I get on here occasionally to be helpful to you all since I was/am a barrel racer before I was also a vet. Honestly I’m starting to just refrain from giving my opinions on anything vet related on here anymore. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| r_beau - 2018-11-29 10:35 AM
FLITASTIC - 2018-11-27 5:07 PM r_beau - 2018-11-27 2:33 PM FLITASTIC - 2018-11-27 3:48 PM r_beau - 2018-11-27 1:38 PM casualdust07 - 2018-11-27 11:16 AM Adequan is best used if you do the full loading dose 2-3 times per year, not once a month. "Best" according to what? Research?
I often see people say that, but if you actually read the research for yourself, it doesn't say that.
So curious what you mean by "best". Luitpold did update its research and now recommends multiple loading doses per year rather than monthly. Research has shown that it is not as effective monthly.
The research only proved that the medication stays in the system for approximately 4 days, which is where they come up with the "every 4 days dosing". That makes sense to me.
What doesn't make sense, is why they chose 7 doses. The research makes no mention and did not study 7 doses. It just seems to be what they arbitratily chose to use for the course of the study.
It also doesn't make sense why they chose to recommend two series a year. The research makes no mention of this whatsoever.
The research never studied twice a year loading doses versus monthly. So I have no idea how the company can say monthly doses don't help when it has never been studied or compared.
And if you've read something different than I have, by all means, please post links and enlighten me. I will gladly change my stance if I've missed something or if the research has changed. But last I checked (and I"ll have to try to dig up the website link to the study to post) the research doesn't "prove" much of anything. My vet handed it to me years ago. Adequan takes almost 30 days to make it into the joint after injection. Its only detectible in the blood or something for 4 days but they used radioactive isotopes as markers and measured how much and how long it took to actually get into the joint. There is an almost immediate anti inflammatory effect with each dose but takes upwards of a month to get into the actual joint. 7 shots are needed, and the tissue needs to be repeatedly exposed over a 28 day period to maximize the amount making it into the joint. My vet did give me the research years ago, but I did not keep it. Monthly dose is not strong enough to maintain the level of drug into the joint. But giving it full series 2-3x a year has shown the maximum effect on the joint. Maybe Causal Dust will see this and answer. She is relatively new out of vet school and might be able to provide the research on paper.
So another question: Why wouldn't you give it every 4 days CONTINUOUSLY, if that is what it takes to maintain levels in the joint? Why stop at 28 days? Why only do 2-3 series a year, because obviously the joint levels are then doing to drop in-between the series. (Haha, this is an "if money was not an object" kind of question. )
How did they determine what level of drug is "needed" in the joint? (when they said a monthly dose doesn't give enough")
The only thing Luitpold quotes on their website is the study from 1993. This is just the link to the abstract. I was able to find the full version before, but can't seem to find it now (without buying a subscription). And I've always been "intrigued" that their website says in big letters: "Clinical significance of the above results is unknown."
Hey there - take a deep breath -
Chemistry of drugs can be tricky - you want to know why you would not dose every 4 days forever? 1 - MONEY 2 -The half life of a drug that deposits in synovial fluid determines it.
Yes, I read the paper from The Equine Vet Journal that is behind a paywall - its sound research that indicated the therapeutic levels that were used and applied by Luitpold to get their FDA approvals. That is a HUGE process to get approval and sound science was used.
Now here's the tricky part ..... things that affect the ability of that drug to stick around in a joint - use of the joint, how arthritic that joint is to begin with, the age of the animal, and the good old chemical half life of whatever drug is being used, and more.
There are quite a few studies that compare different chemicals and their delivery mechanisms on improving joint soundness in horses. Most of these should be free through Google Scholar access for everyone to peruse - https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=polysulfated...
If you're having access problems, PM me and I will try to get .pdf's to those interested. Hope you have a good day. | |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| casualdust07 - 2018-11-29 11:52 AM
r_beau - 2018-11-27 3:38 PM
casualdust07 - 2018-11-27 11:16 AM Adequan is best used if you do the full loading dose 2-3 times per year, not once a month.
"Best" according to what? Research? I often see people say that, but if you actually read the research for yourself, it doesn't say that. So curious what you mean by "best".
Look, I read the research, I prescribe the stuff, I don’t really need an interrogation. I get on here occasionally to be helpful to you all since I was/am a barrel racer before I was also a vet. Honestly I’m starting to just refrain from giving my opinions on anything vet related on here anymore.
please don't stop! And I hope you know how appreciative we all are about your advice since you are a vet! It's unfortunate a few apples make you feel the way you just did. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 542
| WetSaddleBlankets - 2018-11-29 12:34 PM
casualdust07 - 2018-11-29 11:52 AM
r_beau - 2018-11-27 3:38 PM
casualdust07 - 2018-11-27 11:16 AM Adequan is best used if you do the full loading dose 2-3 times per year, not once a month.
"Best" according to what? Research? I often see people say that, but if you actually read the research for yourself, it doesn't say that. So curious what you mean by "best".
Look, I read the research, I prescribe the stuff, I don’t really need an interrogation. I get on here occasionally to be helpful to you all since I was/am a barrel racer before I was also a vet. Honestly I’m starting to just refrain from giving my opinions on anything vet related on here anymore. please don't stop! And I hope you know how appreciative we all are about your advice since you are a vet! It's unfortunate a few apples make you feel the way you just did.
Word
Your posts are well informed. Your a vet, you've had some futurity horses, and you breed. Most of the people on here only fake do those things lol | |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | casualdust07 - 2018-11-29 11:52 AM r_beau - 2018-11-27 3:38 PM casualdust07 - 2018-11-27 11:16 AM Adequan is best used if you do the full loading dose 2-3 times per year, not once a month. "Best" according to what? Research? I often see people say that, but if you actually read the research for yourself, it doesn't say that. So curious what you mean by "best". Look, I read the research, I prescribe the stuff, I don’t really need an interrogation. I get on here occasionally to be helpful to you all since I was/am a barrel racer before I was also a vet. Honestly I’m starting to just refrain from giving my opinions on anything vet related on here anymore.
And I had no idea you were a vet, if that matters....
Edited by r_beau 2018-11-29 1:02 PM
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | runfastturnsmooth - 2018-11-29 12:38 PM
WetSaddleBlankets - 2018-11-29 12:34 PM
casualdust07 - 2018-11-29 11:52 AM
r_beau - 2018-11-27 3:38 PM
casualdust07 - 2018-11-27 11:16 AM Adequan is best used if you do the full loading dose 2-3 times per year, not once a month.
"Best" according to what? Research? I often see people say that, but if you actually read the research for yourself, it doesn't say that. So curious what you mean by "best".
Look, I read the research, I prescribe the stuff, I don’t really need an interrogation. I get on here occasionally to be helpful to you all since I was/am a barrel racer before I was also a vet. Honestly I’m starting to just refrain from giving my opinions on anything vet related on here anymore. please don't stop! And I hope you know how appreciative we all are about your advice since you are a vet! It's unfortunate a few apples make you feel the way you just did.
Word
Your posts are well informed. Your a vet, you've had some futurity horses, and you breed. Most of the people on here only fake do those things lol
This made me LOL! | |
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Folks on-line