Hi all,

So it's been a little while since having to start looking into feed and supplements. I just moved to northern Colorado. From what I can see, it seems my options are: Purina, Triple Crown, Bluebonnet, Nutrena and Tribute for the most part. What is everyone feeding as far as grains go? I used to love Renew Gold, but not really sure where to find that here. I was looking into Bluebonnet X-factor. I would prefer to keep the diet low NSC.

I've also fed OE Align in the past and was seemingly a fan, does anyone still use it? Any other supplement reccomendations? I need to call and see if I can get any nutritional info, because I know in the past its been a little iffy on the whole trademarked/transparency type stuff. Just want to know more about the formulation. I'm ready for all of the supplement reccomendations I just want more options to research because I'm kind of blanking and I like hearing success stories.

I use Tribute Kalm N Ez and MVP Exceed 6-Way. 1/2 of a 3qt scoop of the Tribute keeps the 6 year old appendix, 21 year old main barrel horse, and the 27 year old cushings horse in perfect weight. Its a fairly low NSC feed. All are on the Exceed 6-Way and the barrel horse is on Gastro-Plex too since he's been a heavy ulcer case in the past. The Exceed covers pretty much all your bases. I have no experience with OE products. I also add in natural vitamin E since they have no access to pasture and I board so I'm only allowed 4 flakes of alfalfa a day at max.  I also soak alfalfa pellets with the grain for 2 of them as they have had multiple impaction colics in the past, just to help keep some moisture going through. Otherwise I think it's pretty basic for the most part compared to a lot of the concoctions I've seen and heard. If I need a little weight support for the old cushings guy I just add a little rice bran meal to his food until he reaches the desired weight. He can go through phases of dropping weight randomly due to the hormone shifts. Whatever you can figure out to be as basic and minimal for your horse the better, in my opinion. Renew Gold would be good if you could find it 

If you would like help finding your closest store for Renew Gold just give us a call at 855 377 3639 and we will be happy to help. Or, just PM me the town you are in and I will look. Murdoch Ranch and Home, Tractor Supply, Big R all have stores in Colorado that carry Renew Gold.

Win

As far as supplements go I've always had the best luck and service with Platinum performance. My horse needed to drop some pounds, I got started on the platinum wellness and the metabolic support and it made all the difference for him. He looks really good and lost the dangerous weight (cresty neck,fat pockets) pretty quick. I was feeding bluebonnet ex factor for a little while he started leaving some behind... this stuff has a very strong smell... it smells really sweet, like cotton candy. Anyway, I ended up switching him to Bluebonnet Total advantage, he likes that a lot better (and so does my checkbook) I was worried about him sifting thru the platinum and metabolic support with it but he licks his bowl clean... hes not leaving a speck 

The best program is to find the best forage you can find. Mine get unlimited premium hay and a scoop of forco and a scoop of 707 daily essential vitamins. They look amazing. 

I would go with Bluebonnet. Either Ex Factor or Total advantage they are under 11% NSC. Omega force is around 15 if I remember correctly . You will not need to supplement with OE Align. If you stay in the intensify line. It has ALL the essential vit/minerals needed for your horse. You would only need to add like your joint supplements and stuff like that. If you add platinum it will be doubling up on stuff and wasting money. 

A bluebonnet rep suggested I add in the stride 101 supplement to the total advantage because I'm not feeding what the bag suggests. I went with platinum instead. I dont want to feed 6 to 8lbs, . No ration balancers for me. I've never had luck with those. Something about them just doesnt click with this horse. But I know plenty of people who love them. 

Ration Balancers are another feed that many do not understand. They are high protein concentrates that were originally formulated to boost the protein in the diet if poor quality hay is fed. While most have a vitamin / mineral premix added, that is not the main reason for using a Ration Balancer. There are some nice vitamin / Mineral products on the market that are fed at very low rates and don't disrupt the digestive system. Mature performance horses do very nicely on 12% to 13% total protein for the entire diet. This can be supplied quite easliy by good quality hay. For growing horses, the protein needs are somewhat higher, 15% to 17% does well in that case. In most areas that level can be reached by adding some alfalfa to the diet along with good grass type hay as the base. 

Very poor hay justifies additional support, and in some cases a Ration Balancer can be justified here. Remember though, almost all high protein Ration Balancer formulations are soybean meal based. Since that is the cheapest source of available protein in the feed industry, that is what is used. A fair number of horses are sensitive to soy. If you have one of these, or even if you don't, your money may be better spent buying higher quality hay than trying to boost poor quality hay with a soy supplement. 

If you simply can't get quality hay, and your horse has no issues with soy, a Ration Balancer may be appropriate. In most cases this is still better than high grain rations to support poor hay. But still, hitting your protein needs with quality hay is a better path, and overall usually less expensive. 

I brought up ration balancers because it seems like that's what is always suggested to me when I mention not wanting to feed a lot of concentrates. The extremely high protein percentages always make me wonder, even if it's a low feed rate. 30% protein seems very high. The hay I currently have is "ok" not terrible,  but it doesnt make me excited either. I have almost 200 bales of it put up so getting different hay right now isnt really going to happen. Its clean well taken care of hay we buy from my husbands cousin, he grows it every year and its decent. I dont believe my horse has an issue with soy or really any issues to speak of, other than being an easy keeper. He got fat, that was my fault because I was feeding him too much and not exercising him and he was on pasture majority of the time. Limiting his time on pasture and investing in a grazing muzzle, exercising him daily and changing his feed and amounts took care of it. Now I dont wsnt him to lose absolutely anymore weight. He looks good, better than he has in a few years actually. I've begun feeding him 3xs a day small meals. But he has hay in front of him 24/7. I've thought about changing him from the total advantage to renew gold and I'm still considering it so I'm not "overlapping" any vitamin/minerals with the platinum performance and TA.  We are thinking about going out of town to purchase some good alfalfa hay, unfortunately I have to travel to get any decent alfalfa that's worth getting and the price. I will say Platinum has advised me to try to drop the grain and just feed platinum and forage .. my horse will not eat just the platinum by itself, I tried. I'm over soaking beet pulp and i cant feed him alfalfa pellets he will choke,  hes done it so many times i just cant and wont mess with soaking them... we travel alot when baseball hits for our boys and i have to have someone else feed for me and I'm sorry, i just dont trust anyone to make sure its soaked enough. Last time we went out of town he choked and the vet had to come... he doesnt have an issue with pelleted grain .. knock on wood ... oh geez... sorry OP I didnt mean to take over your thread with my rambling! I've had a few feed store employeed/owners tell me that renew gold is "just a fat supplement "  I dont think that's entirely accurate. 

RG is not just a fat supplement. As you have seen, many feed store owners have limited nutrition education. Renew Gold is 15% fat. That means 85% other components, all formulated to work together to the horses benefit.

win

Sorry if this is a dumb question but what are the omega ratios in RG? Another question i have is why are we often told we want certain omega ratios, everything I've ever read said strive for higher 3 than 6 .... but pretty much every grain I've come across, if I'm lucky to find out, even ration balancers and Triple Crown feeds are higher in 6 than 3. Is it really THAT big of a deal?  There are several "supplements " that claim to be able to balance the ratios so they are favorable. 

So win, I have a horse that I have found to not be able to handle alfalfa. He gets coastal hay, RG, Timothy pellets, a vitamin/mineral supplement that has done wonders for his feet and right now is on Standard Process Immunity and Metabolic, but the SP is only temporary. I worry about him getting enough protein. Is a Ration balancer something I need to look into? I am not riding him now but come June the vet thinks I can start back riding him. 

As is said above, a mature performance horse does well with around 12% to 13% protein if their system can properly process it. Coastal Burmuda can be all over the board on protein levels, so it is important to get every bit out of it while it is in the horse. This is why it is so important that the teeth are up to date, and grain be greatly reduced or better yet, eliminated from the diet completely.  Most horses will tolerate two pounds or so of alfalfa morning and night. But that does not mean that all horses will. I once had a mare that could not eat any Timothy hay. One flake would break her out to the point that you could not hardly fit another bump on her. Every horse is an individual, and if you say yours can't eat Alfalfa hay, I get it. So, In a case like yours, supplemented protein may be the proper answer. This is exactly what Ration Balancers were originally formulated for. All that said, if your Coastal Burmuda is fair, and the Timothy that you are adding is good, you are most likely good on protein. Most horses will tolerate soy, but horses that tend to be sensitive, like yours clearly is, may not. I do not use soy in any formulation that I make, even our poultry formulations. I do not know anyone that make a true ration balancer that does not have soy in it, so, for me the only proper answer is better coastal and timothy if those two in combination are falling short in providing the base protein that your horse needs. Renew Gold is 15% protein and that helps, but the feed rate is so low that the total contribution will not make up for roughage that is seriously low. I see a lot of coastal burmuda that is 10% protein or more. Timothy usually runs around 13%, so you may well be fine with what you are doing. If you feel the need to add a Ration Balancer, I would not add much. 

Win

There have been a lot of interesting offshoots of this thread. NSC, Ration Balancers, and now Omega ratio. All great questions that I hope I can bring some clearity to. So, Omega 3 vs Omega 6. 

While there is not a lot of clinical work with horses on this topic, many people are transfering human data to horses. That usually does not work well, but I think that there are a few basic concepts that can give us some direction. The current trend is to promote significant supplementation of Omega 3 to the diet. There are a lot of products that are either Flax based or fish oil based to do this. These are kind of the rage these days. The idea is that higher levels of Omega 3 in the system will reduce inflammation, and that is a good thing. Grains are very high in Omega 6, which may promote inflammation, and very low in Omega 3, so we need to fight against that, right??

Most hays and pastures are higher in Omega 3 than Omega 6. If you do not feed much grain or no grain, the need to provide additional Omega 3 is greatly reduced as the overall balance of the entire diet will likely be proper. In that case you may not want a significant supplementation of Omega 3 because completely overwhelming Omega 6 may sound good, but is not really a good thing. Like Omega 3, Omega 6 is also an essential amino acid (meaning that the body requires that it is present), that will promote inflammation in certain situations. Where this would be beneficial would be for acute injury where increased blood flow would result, allowing for faster healing. For chronic injury, like arthritic changes, excess inflammation is not beneficial and Omega 3 needs to go to work here. What I am saying is that there is a place, and a need, for both of these essential amino acids. Overall, since we need both in the body a close ratio between the two, with Omega 3 slightly higher than Omega 6 is the accepted ideal.  

If you feed a significant amount of grain, (more than two pounds per day), and low quality hay, the total diet will have an excess of Omega 6.  In this case inflammation that is not beneficial to your horse can be generated. It is in this situation that there is a proper place for Omega 3 supplementation.

If you feed better hay, no grain, and a low inclusion of Renew Gold, Stabilized Rice Bran, or other non grain low feed rate concentrate that is formulated to replace grain based feed, additional Omega 3 should not be needed. Even though they may still provide more Omega 6 than Omega 3, the ratio in those products is much closer than grain and the low feed rate allows the Omega 3 in the roughage to bring the overall ratio of the entire diet into balance.

Thank you very much Win for your detailed explanation on all my questions. I appreciate the straight forward answers, there is so much, too much, information and misinformation out there and I think its safe to say all of us horse people have the absolute best intentions when it comes to feeding our horses. We want what's best and it's so easy to get swept away in the all the feeds/ supplements and different advice and of course opinions on what's considered "the best".  

Thank you Win! I appreciate you coming on here and answering our questions. We are lucky to have you on our forum. 

I love that he comes on and answers questions and gives us such good information yet doesn't shove any products down our throats, i.e. "RG will solve all your problems and make your horse a 1D barrel horse that can win the NCHA Derby and the next year will be the number 1 hunter/jumper on the circuit. . . "

This^^^^^

I'm curious if manna pro will ever become available on chewy

Both my tractor supply stores have been out of RG the last few times I've gone in. Theres always 1 bag of RG SR. on the shelf though.  It would be awesome if they did and the dog food too. 

Awhile back, on another thread, you mentioned something about trying Bluebonnet's Omega Force, and was wondering, if you had a chance to try it, and what your thoughts were on it. My gelding wasn't that into it, he would eat it, but kind of ho hum about it.