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 Veteran
Posts: 188
 
Location: Under the Big Sky - Montana | For those of you with diagnosed horses, what kind of behavior issues did you see besides soreness and bucking? My sister was telling me about this thread so I read it. Some things fit a gelding I have but not completely. I looked at his pedigree tonight and lost count of how many times it goes back to Midnight along with Yellow Jacket and some Yellow Wolf.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/zip+me+jr
Sometimes he will act a little sore. I've had him adjusted 3 times since I got him back this spring. He has never offered to buck but he will get horse sour when we haul him. He has a hard time keeping all 4 feet still when I just want him to stand by other horses when I'm riding him. It isn't just bad behavior or spoiled. It is like an adrenaline rush that you can't shut down and you can't ride it out of him. I suspected ulcers right after I bought him. He has been treated for them twice and the only grain he gets is either safe choice or triumph, which are supposed to be low starch and he gets mostly alfalfa hay. He had never been on pasture until the last 6 weeks. I haven't noticed any change in his behavior being on it but I am wondering if I need to try something else. Before I bought him, the trainer who did his training (big name national APHA trainer from a western pleasure barn) told me he was a garbage horse. He "might" make an ok trail horse. He said he had all the talent in the world but wouldn't apply himself. I feel the same way about him some days. When he is good, he is the most awesome horse to ride. He is broke, broke, broke. Soft in the face, very responsive, and the smoothest ride ever. When he isn't good he is exhausting to deal with.
Is anyone else experiencing any of this type of behaviors? | |
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 Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | Chance Of Rein - 2013-07-15 11:04 PM
For those of you with diagnosed horses, what kind of behavior issues did you see besides soreness and bucking? My sister was telling me about this thread so I read it. Some things fit a gelding I have but not completely. I looked at his pedigree tonight and lost count of how many times it goes back to Midnight along with Yellow Jacket and some Yellow Wolf.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/zip+me+jr
Sometimes he will act a little sore. I've had him adjusted 3 times since I got him back this spring. He has never offered to buck but he will get horse sour when we haul him. He has a hard time keeping all 4 feet still when I just want him to stand by other horses when I'm riding him. It isn't just bad behavior or spoiled. It is like an adrenaline rush that you can't shut down and you can't ride it out of him. I suspected ulcers right after I bought him. He has been treated for them twice and the only grain he gets is either safe choice or triumph, which are supposed to be low starch and he gets mostly alfalfa hay. He had never been on pasture until the last 6 weeks. I haven't noticed any change in his behavior being on it but I am wondering if I need to try something else. Before I bought him, the trainer who did his training (big name national APHA trainer from a western pleasure barn ) told me he was a garbage horse. He "might" make an ok trail horse. He said he had all the talent in the world but wouldn't apply himself. I feel the same way about him some days. When he is good, he is the most awesome horse to ride. He is broke, broke, broke. Soft in the face, very responsive, and the smoothest ride ever. When he isn't good he is exhausting to deal with.
Is anyone else experiencing any of this type of behaviors?
Chance of rein, first thing that popped out at me is that his dam has Sonny Dee Bar. He was one of the pedigree mapped horses in on of the research papers that was wrote. Any time I see SDB in a pedigree, I immediately tell folks to test.
As far as his behaviour, that is what some folks will say, when they are on, they are on, when they are not, its not good.
Also, with many of these horses, just a hay diet won't suffice or just doing hay along with a low starch. These horses need an energy source by either using fat, which can be anything from oils to even powdered coconut oil, or using Alcar which gets them to access the sugars and burn the excess glycogen being stored in their muscles.
Next, most folks supplement their horses with magnesium oxide, natural vitamin E and if your area is deficient in selenium, you'll need to add that but be very careful on selenium supplementation as too much selenium is toxic and it can kill a horse. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 188
Location: Under the Big Sky - Montana | As far as his behaviour, that is what some folks will say, when they are on, they are on, when they are not, its not good.
Also, with many of these horses, just a hay diet won't suffice or just doing hay along with a low starch. These horses need an energy source by either using fat, which can be anything from oils to even powdered coconut oil, or using Alcar which gets them to access the sugars and burn the excess glycogen being stored in their muscles.
Next, most folks supplement their horses with magnesium oxide, natural vitamin E and if your area is deficient in selenium, you'll need to add that but be very careful on selenium supplementation as too much selenium is toxic and it can kill a horse.
Do you have links for where you prefer supplements from? Selenium in this part of the state isn't much of an issue but if I were hauling hay in I'd get it tested.
Where do I go to get my horse tested? I'd start with the first test then go to my vet for the second one. If I could get this behavior turned around, even by 50% I'd never want to sell him. | |
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Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | daisycake123 - 2013-07-15 8:53 PM
I have a nice gelding as a young horse i rode him every day had no problem except hougwhen u carried him to a weekend show sat he would ride great and sun he would ride like he was going to lawn dart you he never,would but you always had that feeling and he was hock sore at a young age. Injected his,hocks every year he was more,than likely fusing, fast fwd was doing well my husbands ends up housebound and i work and take care of him. This horse is amazinly talented. the last year i carried him to the world. He was a bronc if you got him close to the arena rode away or in the stall area no problem. i rode him so hard that he had water running everwhere. Was walking in the warm up arena he slammed me i was riding up to the divider and just laid up against the pannels for at least 5 minutes a horse finally walked by i knew them got the to grab his bridle and got him in the arena, he ran but not like he can. I knew something was wrong i had to work the buck out every,day and them this. I have been trying to,figure outmwhat is,wrong with this horse. Everybody kept telling me that you are not showing so,therefore he is not in shape, xxx, and xxx. Thought at first he was bleeding, as i get is hocks done and teeth. But inoticed if youlet him set more that 3 or 4 days you had to d-buck him before you get on. Fast fwd in march i switched feeds went to a carb quars noticed his eyes went softer and he wasnot as fresh, went to a weekend show first week of june and he quit eating so:-)i gave him some tummy meds and when i got home i went to a low starch feed. Had the vet out says he is sore in the rear just got him injected hocks stifiles let him off that week we had rain on off the next week did notmride either and was busy last week could ride,sat saddled up,last night lunged himto,see if hemhad any buck, none. He had an absess and wa lame not too bed rode long enough to know he wasnot going to buck. But what has changed is his eyes have gotten soft and his personality is loveable, total differnt horse. So i am assuming we fixed the problem, is he is a nice horse i just didnot want to,give up. I m ssuming when i show next week we will have a different horse and i will always show him on preivcox so we dont have pain, really need to do the testing and talk to my vet. But i m happy that we have amgood chenge. He is a very nice horse and eye candy also. Willmore than li,ely get him bot sheet think it,will help the inflammation.
Daisycake, for you, I think the best thing to do at this point is to pull hair and test. For $35 through Animal Genetics, you can have an answer and start from there.
That way if your horse is positive, you can really work on tailoring your horse's diet to help your gelding achieve his full potential.
Even pastures can be bad for some of these horses and for some folks, their horses do better on grass verses alfalfa. I will tell you, there isn't one diet out there that works 100% perfectly for every horses. Everyone struggles and pulls their hair out trying to find that right diet. Also, just because one PSSM horse does good on a certain feed, doesn't mean that your horse will do well on the diet. Just like with Ultium, the University of MN, they recommend Ultium and yet for some folks, the NSCs of Ultium will cause their horses to have problems, but for others, it works awesome. | |
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Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | Chance Of Rein - 2013-07-15 11:38 PM
As far as his behaviour, that is what some folks will say, when they are on, they are on, when they are not, its not good.
Also, with many of these horses, just a hay diet won't suffice or just doing hay along with a low starch. These horses need an energy source by either using fat, which can be anything from oils to even powdered coconut oil, or using Alcar which gets them to access the sugars and burn the excess glycogen being stored in their muscles.
Next, most folks supplement their horses with magnesium oxide, natural vitamin E and if your area is deficient in selenium, you'll need to add that but be very careful on selenium supplementation as too much selenium is toxic and it can kill a horse.
Do you have links for where you prefer supplements from? Selenium in this part of the state isn't much of an issue but if I were hauling hay in I'd get it tested.
Where do I go to get my horse tested? I'd start with the first test then go to my vet for the second one. If I could get this behavior turned around, even by 50% I'd never want to sell him.
here is the link for the testing submission form: http://www.animalgenetics.us/Downloads.htm
http://www.animalgenetics.us/EquinePricing.htm This is the link for the different tests and their prices. I noticed that PSSM1 isn't on there for a single test, but I know they do an individual PSSM test and the cost is $35.
As far as supplements, a lot depends upon where you are at and who will ship what but I do know that many people do order through Valley Vet. Now, the Powerstance that you have to order from them and they are an international company. Here is the link for Powerstance: http://www.stanceequine.com/product-powerstance
When it comes to magnesium oxide I know some folks can order it in pretty good size bulk from their feed dealer. Then for Vitamin E, a lot of folks by the gel caps from places like Costco. Then If you do decide to do Alcar, you can order it through human supplement companies like Nutrbio.
Also, you have to look at what your feed contains and then supplement according. | |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
 
| I also notice that my gelding would always walk his stall really bad just noticed starying last week that he no longer does that you can actually find piles of poo where he just stands in one spot he kind of just looks relaxed with soft eyes.
Edited by daisycake123 2013-07-16 5:41 AM
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| We need to keep this bumped upto get everyones opinion. | |
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 "Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | I can tell you that ulcers and PSSM tend to go hand in hand with my horses. My mare has constantly fought ulcers (I believe gastric ulcers due to the fact that she responded to omeprazole every single time). I would get her healed up and either a trailer ride to the vet or her not being strict on the diet/exercise would cause her to get them again and again. She just came back from two weeks at the vet (stalled 24/7) and was back off of her feed. So, again, I am treating her for them. Once I got her diet/exercise right she was holding up to the hauling without going off of her feed. For the gelding it seems to be more of a colonic ulcer issue and he is responding great to being on Succeed. He's no longer having bad gassy/colic symptoms. Omeprazole did not appear to do anything for him, but the succeed seems to be making a huge difference.
I had taken in a OTTB who was a stall walker, weaver, thin, nervous basket case. I treated him with a month of omeprazole and it did nothing for him, but once I got him on the Succeed, he started picking up weight and FINALLY quit weaving.
It's such a trial and error thing with these horses and each one responds differently to different diets/supplements, etc. The thing is to NOT give up. If I horse is doing something that isn't "normal" or "right", then keep digging until you find the right answer.
On a positive note....my gelding who would not stand still for grooming or being saddled, is now calm and relaxed and standing completely still for both!! So great to finally see some positive results from taking him off of the pasture. He was already on the low starch feed, but the grass was making him symptomatic, still.  | |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| Bump. I noticed my horse that i am soon to be tested. But,diet change has help has slowed down in stall,waking he just stands in front of his,fans. Hey this,horsemsweats a lot when we get it under more control will the swearing decrease. I just kmow he looks more relaxed. When we haul long,distances he is a nervious wrexh when i take him off the trailer. | |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | daisycake123 - 2013-07-19 8:47 PM Bump. I noticed my horse that i am soon to be tested. But,diet change has help has slowed down in stall,waking he just stands in front of his,fans. Hey this,horsemsweats a lot when we get it under more control will the swearing decrease. I just kmow he looks more relaxed. When we haul long,distances he is a nervious wrexh when i take him off the trailer.
My mare used to sweat like crazy, but it was because she was a nervous wreck and would work herself up sooo much. She would be wringing wet with sweat before our run. If he's stepping off of the trailer soaking wet, I'm wondering if it's because he's tying up on the trailer ride?? My neighbor's horse would do that. Every single trailer ride, he would tie up. Maybe some of the others can chime in? I hope you continue to see improvement!!  | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 827
Location: KS | If you have a horse that works themselves into a tissy and you have initiated the diet change and addressed any current lamenesses you might consider trying #1 a round of equiwinner patches to help the horse go ahead and reset himself by balancing his electrolytes and helping himself metabolically and #2 a small dose of ace before any known stressor...ie. the trailer ride or anytime you know you plan to work them harder than normal or prior to a race , etc. Ace works in 2 ways...by actually calming your horses nerves obviously but also by being a vasodialator...helping to keep the blood flowing through the large muscle groups and cramping to a minimum. Ace is very helpful in the higher strung horses...especially if the behavior stems from anticipating pain. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 900
Location: Monticello, AR | I haven't read all the posts, but wanted to ask a question. I have a PSB mare that the chiro came to adjust.....2 years ago I think. She was TIGHT in her hips, and she let him know it. We discussed PSSM, and he said that the Nutrena Safe Choice was a good feed for this. He came back the next month to check her, and she was going to kick him....I had to twitch her to let him even touch her. I am SO glad to see some of this information. She has always seemed to dislike being brushed...she will buck unless you lunge her, and has all the talent in the world, but just won't finish her barrels because she is too busy running!! Anyway, could go on and on, but I am going to send off her sample as soon as possible. Do yall know if this Nutrena feed is good? I priced the Purina L/S and it is like $25 here. I think that is what I remember...the Safe Choice is not as high. Good information on this, thank you all so much!!!! | |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | upscowpatty - 2013-07-19 10:40 PM I haven't read all the posts, but wanted to ask a question. I have a PSB mare that the chiro came to adjust.....2 years ago I think. She was TIGHT in her hips, and she let him know it. We discussed PSSM, and he said that the Nutrena Safe Choice was a good feed for this. He came back the next month to check her, and she was going to kick him....I had to twitch her to let him even touch her. I am SO glad to see some of this information. She has always seemed to dislike being brushed...she will buck unless you lunge her, and has all the talent in the world, but just won't finish her barrels because she is too busy running!! Anyway, could go on and on, but I am going to send off her sample as soon as possible. Do yall know if this Nutrena feed is good? I priced the Purina L/S and it is like $25 here. I think that is what I remember...the Safe Choice is not as high. Good information on this, thank you all so much!!!!
Nutrena Safe Choice is NOT a good feed for these horses as they need something closer to the 10-12% NSC range. Nutrena did come out with a "Special Care" low starch feed that may work. I am feeding Purina WellSolve L/S to mine and they are doing great, but it is about $30/bag and I have to have the guy order it for me. You could also go the route of just feeding alfalfa/grass pellets and a good mineral like California Trace along with a fat supplement if you want a cheaper option. All of Standlee's pellets/cubes are low in starch and easy to find at TSC. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 188
Location: Under the Big Sky - Montana | So much good info from everyone. The newest SafeChoice "special care" is 11% NSC which is the best I have been able to find in our area. There are very few Purina dealers but I might have to see if one will order the Wellsolve. I don't know why most of the feed stores around here carry Nutrena brands. I'm going to get my gelding tested but I've already switched over his feed as best I can in the last couple of days. He'd been on a combo of pasture (1.5 hours day) and alfalfa. He's back to just the alfalfa now. I've put him on Vitamin E supplement that is 20,000 IU and 45 mg of selenium. As soon as I get a chance to talk to my vet I may change that. I don't think we are either low or high for selenium here so I may need to tweak that to just the Vitamin E. I'm also starting him on Magnesium today. 3500 mg. I'm not sure if that is enough or not. I've also added about 1 1/2 cups of oil between both feedings. I've given him oil before so it wasn't hard to get him on it again. He is a cribber and a weaver and he is turned out in a big dry lot with 2 fat mares. I'm hoping I'll really notice a difference and he'll quit doing a lot of the walking he does. I might just go ahead and put him back on the omeprazole for now. I did notice slight differences when he was on it. If that doesn't do it, I can try the succeed. | |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | T.H.E. can make a formula for horses with PSSM. Let me know if I can answer any questions. Their formula is sugar free too for those that didn't already know that. | |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| Bump my buckers only been rode 1 time in 2 weeks saddled up and rode off better today. I been feeding blue seal l/s feed. How do,you tell on the tag what sugar content its is in it. I also feed cool caleries fat suppliment and i 8 oz cup of alfalfal pellets and some beet pulp and alfala cubes soaked as well as 2 flakes of hay. I with the other poster need to know how much vit e and selinum i know we are diffent here as well how much maginesisum.
Edited by daisycake123 2013-07-20 7:47 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 188
Location: Under the Big Sky - Montana | wyoming barrel racer - 2013-07-20 4:31 PM
T.H.E. can make a formula for horses with PSSM. Let me know if I can answer any questions. Their formula is sugar free too for those that didn't already know that.
Can you give me the list of what is in it and the price? | |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | daisycake123 - 2013-07-20 7:45 PM
Bump my buckers only been rode 1 time in 2 weeks saddled up and rode off better today. I been feeding blue seal l/s feed. How do,you tell on the tag what sugar content its is in it. I also feed cool caleries fat suppliment and i 8 oz cup of alfalfal pellets and some beet pulp and alfala cubes soaked as well as 2 flakes of hay. I with the other poster need to know how much vit e and selinum i know we are diffent here as well how much maginesisum.
As far as I know there isn't one feed manufacturer putting the NSC on the nutrition tags. If the Blue Seal that you are feeding is called "Carb Guard" then it looks like its around 11-12% NSC.
As far as Vitamin E, I've heard anywhere from 5,000 - 10,000 IU/per day. Selenium can become toxic if your pasture/hay levels are not deficient. You can have your vet draw blood and test Selenium levels to make sure you are safe. Magnesium levels can also be tested via blood so you don't over do it. | |
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 Cotton Balls are the Devil
Posts: 1271
Location: My own little world! | In 2005 or 2006 I had a mare that was just "sore". She never tied up. She was 7 years old, patterned and I was starting to really haul her when things became really noticable.
Besides often having a sore back the most noticable things she did were : 1.Tripped on her hind end at the walk and trot (like she was stepping in a hole.) 2.Had trouble holding her leads in the hind, around the barrels, during a run. 3.Tail wringing during runs. 4. Stopping while going up hills. 5. Rarely rolled but often laid down in the pasture. 6.Had a very poor attitude if kept in a stall (on road trips would pin her ears when anyone came near the stall.) 7. VERY easy keeper (actually lost weight very quickly once oil was added to the diet) 8. Short, choppy gait.
She was never a hot horse. She never, ever bucked or reared or even through much a fit. Most people never knew there was something actually wrong with her. They probably thought she was a "b" and maybe not super athletic or maybe she was not "happy" being a barrel horse. Or maybe they thought she was spoiled.
The things people said most often about my horse were "You should spank her when she trips like that then she'll stop being so lazy on her hind and start picking her hind feet up. She's just being lazy. She is just being lazy going around the barrels when she is not changing her leads in the hind end like that. or she is young, probably not strong enough to hold her leads around the barrel yet. Get her working off her hind end to fix that."
Well, that probably is true in very young horses but she was 7, well muscled and been patterned for the past 1 and 1/2 years or so.
Knowing what I know now, my response would be "I have a lazy horse and he moves slowly but correctly."
She was a Paint horse. I have never "named names" as far as what blood line I suspect but I was reading on a site today that said the Type 1 has been traced back through draft breeds, Morgans , Thorobreds ect and far back in European breeds but not Arabs. Type 2 has been found in Arabs, QH, Paints TB's ect. Which is confusing because Arabs along with TB's and drafts were all foundation horses in the QH blood lines............... So if that is the case then how can they blame one or two blood lines in the QH/Paint breed for Type 2 PSSM? Now I just made my own head spin.
Not that I don't want to know and maybe if boils down to a lack of data at this point, as in not enough people have actually done the follow up biopsy after the + ( or -) hair test with Arab horse for instance.
I really don't ever want to put that much time,effort and money into a horse that the deck is stacked against right from the get go, in the future, if I can avoid it.
Edited by Cashbaby 2013-07-24 12:07 AM
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Cashbaby - 2013-07-23 11:52 PM In 2005 or 2006 I had a mare that was just "sore". She never tied up. She was 7 years old, patterned and I was starting to really haul her when things became really noticable. Besides often having a sore back the most noticable things she did were : 1.Tripped on her hind end at the walk and trot (like she was stepping in a hole.) 2.Had trouble holding her leads in the hind, around the barrels, during a run. 3.Tail wringing during runs. 4. Stopping while going up hills. 5. Rarely rolled but often laid down in the pasture. 6.Had a very poor attitude if kept in a stall (on road trips would pin her ears when anyone came near the stall.) 7. VERY easy keeper (actually lost weight very quickly once oil was added to the diet) 8. Short, choppy gait. She was never a hot horse. She never, ever bucked or reared or even through much a fit. Most people never knew there was something actually wrong with her. They probably thought she was a "b" and maybe not super athletic or maybe she was not "happy" being a barrel horse. Or maybe they thought she was spoiled. The things people said most often about my horse were "You should spank her when she trips like that then she'll stop being so lazy on her hind and start picking her hind feet up. She's just being lazy. She is just being lazy going around the barrels when she is not changing her leads in the hind end like that. or she is young, probably not strong enough to hold her leads around the barrel yet. Get her working off her hind end to fix that." Well, that probably is true in very young horses but she was 7, well muscled and been patterned for the past 1 and 1/2 years or so. Knowing what I know now, my response would be "I have a lazy horse and he moves slowly but correctly." She was a Paint horse. I have never "named names" as far as what blood line I suspect but I was reading on a site today that said the Type 1 has been traced back through draft breeds, Morgans , Thorobreds ect and far back in European breeds but not Arabs. Type 2 has been found in Arabs, QH, Paints TB's ect. Which is confusing because Arabs along with TB's and drafts were all foundation horses in the QH blood lines............... So if that is the case then how can they blame one or two blood lines in the QH/Paint breed for Type 2 PSSM? Now I just made my own head spin. Not that I don't want to know and maybe if boils down to a lack of data at this point, as in not enough people have actually done the follow up biopsy after the + ( or -) hair test with Arab horse for instance. I really don't ever want to put that much time,effort and money into a horse that the deck is stacked against right from the get go, in the future, if I can avoid it.
Cashbaby-
Thank you for sharing your story and experiences! I forgot that my mare would tail swish, too! Same funky step in behind and stiffness! If I save one person from wasting money on vet bills like I did, then it's worth it! This disorder is EVERYWHERE and I think that's what makes it best for EVERYONE to just test before breeding. It's origins are so far back, and they didn't have parentage verification and DNA like we do today to even know for sure who the horse actually came from. It's just better to be safe than sorry! If it weren't so common, I wouldn't have TWO PSSM horses in my barn! Thanks again for your input! | |
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