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Veteran
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| I am a staunch conservative and I struggle with the fact that no one recognizes the confederate battle flag as a symbol of racism. I am a bit shocked at what I read on these posts. I see an immediate stance of defiance and defense. I get that as it seems lately all we see and hear about is crimes committed against blacks by whites and all other crimes are blatantly ignored. I agree its out of control and it makes me ****ed off with resentment and wonder why our current administration and the lame stream media continues to divide our country......
BUT, The confederate battle flag was used as symbol of opposition to the civil rights act. That is a well known fact. It was adopted by both the KKK and the Dixiecrats. I completely understand why it is being asked to be removed. It is long over due. Symbols of racism do not belong anywhere.. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 120
| The flag has no meaning "regardless" of politics, or above politics; its heritage is not exempt from history. Anyone can interpret anything any way they want, but if they claim historical sanction for their interpretation, then they'd best be accurate. And in that sense, history is clear: There is no revolutionary cause associated with the flag, other than the right for Southern states to determine how best to subjugate black people and to perpetuate slavery. | |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
   
Location: In The Land of Cotton | I put this on the Bill O'Reilly thread but people all of this is getting crazy - if we don't think America has a problem - and there isn't going to be some kind of uproar - you have your head stuck in the sand.
http://nypost.com/2015/06/24/gone-with-the-wind-should-go-the-way-of-the-confederate-flag/
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 Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | banjomia - 2015-06-25 1:14 PM I am a staunch conservative and I struggle with the fact that no one recognizes the confederate battle flag as a symbol of racism. I am a bit shocked at what I read on these posts. I see an immediate stance of defiance and defense. I get that as it seems lately all we see and hear about is crimes committed against blacks by whites and all other crimes are blatantly ignored. I agree its out of control and it makes me ****ed off with resentment and wonder why our current administration and the lame stream media continues to divide our country...... BUT, The confederate battle flag was used as symbol of opposition to the civil rights act. That is a well known fact. It was adopted by both the KKK and the Dixiecrats. I completely understand why it is being asked to be removed. It is long over due. Symbols of racism do not belong anywhere..
KKK also carried the US flag. Should that be banned also?
It's a slippery slope. Where are lines drawn? Do we ban anything and everything offensive? | |
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Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
Location: In The Land of Cotton | Murphy - 2015-06-25 1:57 PM banjomia - 2015-06-25 1:14 PM I am a staunch conservative and I struggle with the fact that no one recognizes the confederate battle flag as a symbol of racism. I am a bit shocked at what I read on these posts. I see an immediate stance of defiance and defense. I get that as it seems lately all we see and hear about is crimes committed against blacks by whites and all other crimes are blatantly ignored. I agree its out of control and it makes me ****ed off with resentment and wonder why our current administration and the lame stream media continues to divide our country...... BUT, The confederate battle flag was used as symbol of opposition to the civil rights act. That is a well known fact. It was adopted by both the KKK and the Dixiecrats. I completely understand why it is being asked to be removed. It is long over due. Symbols of racism do not belong anywhere.. KKK also carried the US flag. Should that be banned also?
It's a slippery slope. Where are lines drawn? Do we ban anything and everything offensive?
I agree Murphy - for pete's sake they want to ban Gone with the WInd. Crazy at it's best.
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Murphy - 2015-06-25 12:57 PM
banjomia - 2015-06-25 1:14 PM I am a staunch conservative and I struggle with the fact that no one recognizes the confederate battle flag as a symbol of racism. I am a bit shocked at what I read on these posts. I see an immediate stance of defiance and defense. I get that as it seems lately all we see and hear about is crimes committed against blacks by whites and all other crimes are blatantly ignored. I agree its out of control and it makes me ****ed off with resentment and wonder why our current administration and the lame stream media continues to divide our country...... BUT, The confederate battle flag was used as symbol of opposition to the civil rights act. That is a well known fact. It was adopted by both the KKK and the Dixiecrats. I completely understand why it is being asked to be removed. It is long over due. Symbols of racism do not belong anywhere..
KKK also carried the US flag. Should that be banned also?
It's a slippery slope. Where are lines drawn? Do we ban anything and everything offensive?Â
Precisely. The KKKs universal symbol is the cross, so all you people who like to embellish your tack with the cross are flashing the universal symbol used by the KKK.
(Of course I'm using absurdity to illustrate the absurd.) | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | banjomia - 2015-06-25 12:27 PM The flag has no meaning "regardless" of politics, or above politics; its heritage is not exempt from history. Anyone can interpret anything any way they want, but if they claim historical sanction for their interpretation, then they'd best be accurate. And in that sense, history is clear: There is no revolutionary cause associated with the flag, other than the right for Southern states to determine how best to subjugate black people and to perpetuate slavery.
Wrong. I was talking with a history teacher recently who said that's the way it's introduced at the elementary school level because the constitution, states' rights, and northern aggression related to economics of the time are considered "too complicated" for kids at that age. The rest of the story is supposed to be taught starting in jr high. The rest of the story isn't sinking in, obviously. Slavery was on the way out. It was going to take longer, phasing it out gradually, but the thinking was already changing. There was no way to stop it suddenly without destroying the economy, as evidenced by problems faced during Reconstruction. But the fact remains that although slavery was a major bone of contention that backed southerners into a corner so that they came out fighting, it was far from the only one.
btw, how do you explain Union generals, including Ulysses S Grant, owning slaves and not freeing them until forced to do so several months after the end of the war? | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR |
I don't know if that is a pathetic someone screaming for attention and trying to be relevant, or if people really are attempting a cultural cleansing. Kind of like that Ben Affleck deal on the PBS program where he asked they not disclose that one of his ancestors owned slaves. Why? He had no control over what happened before he was born. It was legal and considered normal and ethical in that time period. Can't we acknowledge that the institution was wrong without being ashamed that we are descended from people who participated? When you know better, you do better.
Not to mention that Africans were hardly the only slaves ever to exist in the history of the world. They weren't even the last... | |
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Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
Location: In The Land of Cotton | Three 4 Luck - 2015-06-25 3:29 PM I don't know if that is a pathetic someone screaming for attention and trying to be relevant, or if people really are attempting a cultural cleansing. Kind of like that Ben Affleck deal on the PBS program where he asked they not disclose that one of his ancestors owned slaves. Why? He had no control over what happened before he was born. It was legal and considered normal and ethical in that time period. Can't we acknowledge that the institution was wrong without being ashamed that we are descended from people who participated? When you know better, you do better.
Not to mention that Africans were hardly the only slaves ever to exist in the history of the world. They weren't even the last...
So true, think about what happened in the next 25 years of American history, the Irish that were brought here and made slaves basically to work during the potatoe famine. Or the fact that the American Indian had slaves amongst themselves. Or, for pete sakes that the African's themselves still had slaves over on the African continent.
To erase history and remove anything and everything relaed to it is wrong. To learn and grow from it are another. But one cannot learn and grow when only the bad aspects are brought up continually.
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Veteran
Posts: 120
| Murphy - 2015-06-25 12:57 PM
banjomia - 2015-06-25 1:14 PM I am a staunch conservative and I struggle with the fact that no one recognizes the confederate battle flag as a symbol of racism. I am a bit shocked at what I read on these posts. I see an immediate stance of defiance and defense. I get that as it seems lately all we see and hear about is crimes committed against blacks by whites and all other crimes are blatantly ignored. I agree its out of control and it makes me ****ed off with resentment and wonder why our current administration and the lame stream media continues to divide our country...... BUT, The confederate battle flag was used as symbol of opposition to the civil rights act. That is a well known fact. It was adopted by both the KKK and the Dixiecrats. I completely understand why it is being asked to be removed. It is long over due. Symbols of racism do not belong anywhere..
KKK also carried the US flag. Should that be banned also?
It's a slippery slope. Where are lines drawn? Do we ban anything and everything offensive?Â
NO..Once again you are missing the point of the confederate battle flag. The US flag was not founded and created for the intent of slavery. The Confederate battle flag was. Do you not understand that? The very meaning and creation of the confederate battle flag was because of the desire to fight against the government and the civil rights act.
Comparing flying the US flag and the Confederate flags is like apples and oranges | |
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Veteran
Posts: 120
| 3canstorun - 2015-06-25 2:40 PM
Three 4 Luck - 2015-06-25 3:29 PM Â I don't know if that is a pathetic someone screaming for attention and trying to be relevant, or if people really are attempting a cultural cleansing. Â Kind of like that Ben Affleck deal on the PBS program where he asked they not disclose that one of his ancestors owned slaves. Â Why? Â He had no control over what happened before he was born. Â It was legal and considered normal and ethical in that time period. Â Can't we acknowledge that the institution was wrong without being ashamed that we are descended from people who participated? Â When you know better, you do better.
Not to mention that Africans were hardly the only slaves ever to exist in the history of the world. Â They weren't even the last...Â
To erase history and remove anything and everything relaed to it is wrong. To learn and grow from it are another. But one cannot learn and grow when only the bad aspects are brought up continually. Â
Â
Once again, this isn't about erasing history.....its about not displaying a flag that has a historical meaning of hatred and slavery.
Its so simple I find it unreal that people can't see it for what it is. Remove everything you know and feel up to today about what's going on in this world. Remove your frustration with the attack on whites (and its there) and just see the confederate flag for what it is. Do the research. Its not rocket science. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 120
| Three 4 Luck - 2015-06-25 2:17 PM
banjomia - 2015-06-25 12:27 PM The flag has no meaning "regardless" of politics, or above politics; its heritage is not exempt from history. Anyone can interpret anything any way they want, but if they claim historical sanction for their interpretation, then they'd best be accurate. And in that sense, history is clear: There is no revolutionary cause associated with the flag, other than the right for Southern states to determine how best to subjugate black people and to perpetuate slavery.
 Wrong.  I was talking with a history teacher recently who said that's the way it's introduced at the elementary school level because the constitution, states' rights, and northern aggression related to economics of the time are considered "too complicated" for kids at that age.  The rest of the story is supposed to be taught starting in jr high.  The rest of the story isn't sinking in, obviously.  Slavery was on the way out.  It was going to take longer, phasing it out gradually, but the thinking was already changing.  There was no way to stop it suddenly without destroying the economy, as evidenced by problems faced during Reconstruction. But the fact remains that although slavery was a major bone of contention that backed southerners into a corner so that they came out fighting, it was far from the only one.
btw, how do you explain Union generals, including Ulysses S Grant, owning slaves and not freeing them until forced to do so several months after the end of the war?Â
This discussion isn't about who owned slaves and who didn't. Its about a "battle flag" that was created to fight the civil rights movement because slavery was considered a valuable economic right of the states. The original confederate flag doesn't even resemble the battle flag which has changed.
Listen, we can argue all day if you refuse to ignore the simplicity of this flag and what it stands for. Removing this flag is LONG over due. Regardless of all the complicated issues that surround slavery, racism, current events, there really isn't anything confusing or complicated about this flag.
Just think about it. Google it. You don't even need to be a history major to figure this one out. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | banjomia - 2015-06-25 3:35 PM Murphy - 2015-06-25 12:57 PM banjomia - 2015-06-25 1:14 PM I am a staunch conservative and I struggle with the fact that no one recognizes the confederate battle flag as a symbol of racism. I am a bit shocked at what I read on these posts. I see an immediate stance of defiance and defense. I get that as it seems lately all we see and hear about is crimes committed against blacks by whites and all other crimes are blatantly ignored. I agree its out of control and it makes me ****ed off with resentment and wonder why our current administration and the lame stream media continues to divide our country...... BUT, The confederate battle flag was used as symbol of opposition to the civil rights act. That is a well known fact. It was adopted by both the KKK and the Dixiecrats. I completely understand why it is being asked to be removed. It is long over due. Symbols of racism do not belong anywhere.. KKK also carried the US flag. Should that be banned also?
It's a slippery slope. Where are lines drawn? Do we ban anything and everything offensive? NO..Once again you are missing the point of the confederate battle flag. The US flag was not founded and created for the intent of slavery. The Confederate battle flag was. Do you not understand that? The very meaning and creation of the confederate battle flag was because of the desire to fight against the government and the civil rights act. Comparing flying the US flag and the Confederate flags is like apples and oranges
A little history that I find interesting and bizarre as I'm sure you do, too, but we forget that once upon a time the peasants of the world were not allowed to know how to read. It was a serious crime to be caught 'reading'! Why? Because mankind can control the illiterate much easier than the educated. In the 1800's in America the blacks were learning to read! They then freed themselves.
Here we are today...and I really question our literacy, hence, the control that a governement is gaining on us...again.
I see this as a "stoop for that you'll stoop for this". It must stop, it's out of control!
Edited by musikmaker 2015-06-25 4:52 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1343
Location: East Texas | banjomia - 2015-06-25 4:48 PM
Three 4 Luck - 2015-06-25 2:17 PM
banjomia - 2015-06-25 12:27 PM The flag has no meaning "regardless" of politics, or above politics; its heritage is not exempt from history. Anyone can interpret anything any way they want, but if they claim historical sanction for their interpretation, then they'd best be accurate. And in that sense, history is clear: There is no revolutionary cause associated with the flag, other than the right for Southern states to determine how best to subjugate black people and to perpetuate slavery.
 Wrong.  I was talking with a history teacher recently who said that's the way it's introduced at the elementary school level because the constitution, states' rights, and northern aggression related to economics of the time are considered "too complicated" for kids at that age.  The rest of the story is supposed to be taught starting in jr high.  The rest of the story isn't sinking in, obviously.  Slavery was on the way out.  It was going to take longer, phasing it out gradually, but the thinking was already changing.  There was no way to stop it suddenly without destroying the economy, as evidenced by problems faced during Reconstruction. But the fact remains that although slavery was a major bone of contention that backed southerners into a corner so that they came out fighting, it was far from the only one.
btw, how do you explain Union generals, including Ulysses S Grant, owning slaves and not freeing them until forced to do so several months after the end of the war?Â
This discussion isn't about who owned slaves and who didn't. Its about a "battle flag" that was created to fight the civil rights movement because slavery was considered a valuable economic right of the states. The original confederate flag doesn't even resemble the battle flag which has changed.
Listen, we can argue all day if you refuse to ignore the simplicity of this flag and what it stands for. Removing this flag is LONG over due. Regardless of all the complicated issues that surround slavery, racism, current events, there really isn't anything confusing or complicated about this flag.
Just think about it. Google it. You don't even need to be a history major to figure this one out.
I guess my question to you, Banjomia, is, what exactly do you believe will happen if every Confederate flag is taken down, other than those that want them down feeling they won a battle? I believe that until we all get our hearts right and everyone starts treating each other with some kind of respect (which needs to be earned), then taking down a flag that some believe represents hatred, with be just that... a bunch of flags being removed. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | banjomia - 2015-06-25 4:48 PM Three 4 Luck - 2015-06-25 2:17 PM banjomia - 2015-06-25 12:27 PM The flag has no meaning "regardless" of politics, or above politics; its heritage is not exempt from history. Anyone can interpret anything any way they want, but if they claim historical sanction for their interpretation, then they'd best be accurate. And in that sense, history is clear: There is no revolutionary cause associated with the flag, other than the right for Southern states to determine how best to subjugate black people and to perpetuate slavery. Wrong. I was talking with a history teacher recently who said that's the way it's introduced at the elementary school level because the constitution, states' rights, and northern aggression related to economics of the time are considered "too complicated" for kids at that age. The rest of the story is supposed to be taught starting in jr high. The rest of the story isn't sinking in, obviously. Slavery was on the way out. It was going to take longer, phasing it out gradually, but the thinking was already changing. There was no way to stop it suddenly without destroying the economy, as evidenced by problems faced during Reconstruction. But the fact remains that although slavery was a major bone of contention that backed southerners into a corner so that they came out fighting, it was far from the only one.
btw, how do you explain Union generals, including Ulysses S Grant, owning slaves and not freeing them until forced to do so several months after the end of the war? This discussion isn't about who owned slaves and who didn't. Its about a "battle flag" that was created to fight the civil rights movement because slavery was considered a valuable economic right of the states. The original confederate flag doesn't even resemble the battle flag which has changed. Listen, we can argue all day if you refuse to ignore the simplicity of this flag and what it stands for. Removing this flag is LONG over due. Regardless of all the complicated issues that surround slavery, racism, current events, there really isn't anything confusing or complicated about this flag. Just think about it. Google it. You don't even need to be a history major to figure this one out.
You seem to have the civil war and the civil rights movement of 100 years later all mixed up. The battle flag was created during the WAR.
I don't see the flag as a symbol of racism, I see it as a display of Southern pride. Pride was all many people had left after the war. I've never personally felt the need to display it, but I'm about to change my mind. Screw the PC police. | |
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BHW's Simon Cowell
Location: The Saudia Arabia of Wind Energy, Western Oklahoma | When these poor people were murdered I was interested to see what BHW would have to say about it. To my surprise there didn't seem to be one post about it. Now if I missed it I apologize in advance. But we have a 6 page post about the confederate flag. That is pretty sad. | |
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BHW's Simon Cowell
Location: The Saudia Arabia of Wind Energy, Western Oklahoma | I guess I could have missed a prayer post or something. I'm still looking but I can't find one post. | |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | ksjackofalltrades - 2015-06-25 5:36 PM When these poor people were murdered I was interested to see what BHW would have to say about it. To my surprise there didn't seem to be one post about it. Now if I missed it I apologize in advance. But we have a 6 page post about the confederate flag. That is pretty sad. Thank you. People seem way more concerned with the flag issue than the fact that PEOPLE DIED. And those deaths were a result of ignorance and bigotry.
Edited by SC Wrangler 2015-06-25 6:25 PM
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | ksjackofalltrades - 2015-06-25 6:41 PM
I guess I could have missed a prayer post or something. I'm still looking but I can't find one post.
Did you make a post about? Feel FREE to do so.Why is it everyone elses responsibility to post and then you say this? You didnt either so why are you blaming everyone else? YET ANOTHER PROBLEM IN THIS WORLD. | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
Location: wherever my daughter's running | cruise - 2015-06-22 12:36 PMI live in SC. Very proud of our state in the way they are handling a horrible, senseless, tragedy. There has been no hate rioting, destorying of police vehicles, or burning of businesses. Too much good for some to handle so grab the low hanging fruit - the flag and gun control.   I am a direct desendant of SC Governor Gist's second wife. Long family line of family ties to that era in histroy. It was a very different time. The flag was not placed on our state capital right after the war - it was placed there when segregation began in the South in the early sixties. That is my issues with the flying - not the flag itself - but the time it was placed on our capital. It wa to have been flown for 1 year - apparently someone forgot to take it down. Take it down or leave it up - it will not change the hate in anyone's heart. There are also pictures of the individual that took 9 beautiful lives visiting a confederate museum in upstate SC. Will the museum be closed? Will those who make money off the confederate flag sold on clothing, patches. license plates, the flag, etc. be ordered to close down. I can go along with taking it down and putting it in a museum - but as I said earlier - I don't think it change the hatred in peoples hearts. Our Governonr is scheduled to hold a news conference this afternoon. It is anticipated it will be about the flag. Apparently there in a loophole that will allow for it to taken down within 10 days by tying it onto our state budget which has yet to a approved. Will be interesting to see what she has to say.     Quoted this so maybe it will preface what I am going to say. While I am still fine with the flag coming down because it is on SC's stste house grounds, the ripple effect will cause history, good and bad, to be erased. Taking down the flag is the top of the iceberg. No more General Lee cars from the Dukes of Hazzard with the flag on its roof, people wanting to remove stain glass windows, rename streets parks, anything carrying the name of Robert E Lee, who did other things beside lead the Confederate Army, or any other person that was a part of the Confederacy, and Amazon who said there were removing items with the fag, but apparently not till after the sales for them increased 200%. Guess no one knew how to type item no longer available before they made money. Probably more in 24 hours than they would have made in 24 years off that item.Yes, part of the reason for secession was because of money. Money made off of cotton in the South. Lincoln knew he could not let the cash cow get away. This whole thing has been taken to the extreme. Remove one flag from the state house grounds - yes. Erase history - no.
Edited by cruise 2015-06-25 8:50 PM
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