|
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 445
 
| I have a gelding that never went to the NFR or was proven in that way, but was an awesome horse.
He is 31 now, great conformation. He is a son of Johnny Boone and out of Moon Beam Lady
(she is the grand dam of Streak of Fling) She was a producing mare out of Lady Bugs Moon. Annisa Self had a half sister to my gelding who qualified her for the NFR. I so wish I could clone him cause I know his dam is an awesome producer and his lines are proven! Its all pretty much an experiment but would be nice to have the money and see what could be! | |
| | |
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | The gene pool has shrunk due to AI and other factors. This is because AI cheapened the most decorated studs' fees such that it is not much more to breed to a world champ or super proven stud than to breed to an unproven or non-popular stud. The reason for this is economy of scale. AI has increased drastically the number of mares a stallion can produce.
Now, where do I come from saying cloning has the potential to kill the gene pool that is already hurting? That is because if cloning ever becomes cheap enough that stallion owners will be able to charge relatively competitive stud fees for clones, then where do you think the masses will be spending their money? Everyone will want the super duper semen from the most decorated stallions. Here is the scenario I am looking at. Cloning will allow multiple stallions with the same genetic makeup. This means unlimited breeding potential for the genetics of just one stallion. 50 years ago this was 20 mares or so, today it is 100+, and in the future of cloning, it will be in the 1000's. They will be able to offer cheap breeding fees, comparable if not cheaper to fees today, because of three things: 1) The cost of producing a clone will go down 2)The expense of developing and marketing the bloodlines will decrease. This is because cost of raising and proving a stallion is immense. Today only one stallion at a time can reap the benefits of this expense. In the cloning future say 5, 10, 20, etc. stallions can be cloned to spread the expense of raising, training, and showing that one winning individual. 3) The number of mares able to service from this lower investment per collection will rise drastically, so less money is needed to be made off of each individual collection or breeding. Combined with a world of full of clones, competitive forces will keep prices low.
I guarantee you, if cloning is ever able to get to that level of access and economics, the traditional live cover small group of mares breeder (without massive pocketbooks) will be done for. I am one of those breeders so yes I am affected. Also, with unlimited numbers of highly promoted and invested stallions everywhere the economic incentive will not be there to introduce new genetics or bloodlines to the system AND the public, by in large, will not demand it until it is virtually too late to find such high quality outcrosses within a breeding association. This is why I am 100% against cloning and the registration of clones. I do have a vested interest. think every horse owner and enthusiast has a vested interest.
Edited by Tdove 2016-04-21 11:11 AM
| |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | Tdove - 2016-04-21 10:55 AM
The gene pool has shrunk due to AI and other factors. This is because AI cheapened the most decorated studs' fees such that it is not much more to breed to a world champ or super proven stud than to breed to an unproven or non-popular stud. The reason for this is economy of scale. AI has increased drastically the number of mares a stallion can produce.
Now, where do I come from saying cloning has the potential to kill the gene pool that is already hurting? That is because if cloning ever becomes cheap enough that stallion owners will be able to charge relatively competitive stud fees for clones, then where do you think the masses will be spending their money? Everyone will want the super duper semen from the most decorated stallions. Here is the scenario I am looking at. Cloning will allow multiple stallions with the same genetic makeup. This means unlimited breeding potential for the genetics of just one stallion. 50 years ago this was 20 mares or so, today it is 100+, and in the future of cloning, it will be in the 1000's. They will be able to offer cheap breeding fees, comparable if not cheaper to fees today, because of three things: 1) The cost of producing a clone will go down 2)The expense of developing and marketing the bloodlines will decrease. This is because cost of raising and proving a stallion is immense. Today only one stallion at a time can reap the benefits of this expense. In the cloning future say 5, 10, 20, etc. stallions can be cloned to spread the expense of raising, training, and showing that one winning individual. 3) The number of mares able to service from this lower investment per collection will rise drastically, so less money is needed to be made off of each individual collection or breeding. Combined with a world of full of clones, competitive forces will keep prices low.
I guarantee you, if cloning is ever able to get to that level of access and economics, the traditional live cover small group of mares breeder (without massive pocketbooks) will be done for. I am one of those breeders so yes I am affected. Also, with unlimited numbers of highly promoted and invested stallions everywhere the economic incentive will not be there to introduce new genetics or bloodlines to the system AND the public, by in large, will not demand it until it is virtually too late to find such high quality outcrosses within a breeding association. This is why I am 100% against cloning and the registration of clones. I do have a vested interest. think every horse owner and enthusiast has a vested interest.
Agreed. | |
| | |
 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
 
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Theres a good looking baby thats for sale on here by Another Shot.. | |
| | |
 Diva
Location: SP, Brazil | Cloning has been done a lot here in Brazil especially with dairy and beef bulls. What has shown is that the clones DO NOT produce near to the level of the original animal. Here in Brazil, you can clone your horse or bull and get 3 foals/calves for the cost of around $40,000.
I thought about doing it on my FWF stud just to get three geldings to ride because it would be a lot cheaper to clone him than to buy and send to Brazil own sons of FWF.
But as for the cloning, its pretty proven here that the clones dont become what the original was, or even close. | |
| | |
  Rebel Without a Cause
Posts: 2758
Location: Adopt a homeless pet - www.petfinder.com! | Double Latte is a cute name, just sayin'  | |
| | |
 Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | rockette - 2016-04-19 2:18 PM
1DSoon - 2016-04-19 2:15 PM
rockette - 2016-04-19 3:14 PM 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 2:11 PM rockette - 2016-04-19 3:11 PM 3canstorun - 2016-04-19 1:15 PM Another clone has hit the barrel horse world. I wonder what is in store for Double Latte - Mary Walker's clone of Latte?
Will he go to the pen, or just stand for stud?
In my opinion, she would be smart to run him. Too many others are cloning just to stand at stud. I think smart money is on running him. So you would just let him sit like the others?
They have everything to lose if they run him and he's a dud. And very little to gain if he's decent to good.
The odds are he never stacks up to the orginal.
There is no proof that will happen. No barrel racing clone has completed. There is no basis for what might happen. Pretty expensive breeding dud to sit around.
I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if its been stated...
But Blaise has been running her clone of Red Man Bay. She just started hauling him this year and he's doing well. | |
| | |
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | dashnlotti - 2016-04-21 7:28 PM
rockette - 2016-04-19 2:18 PM
1DSoon - 2016-04-19 2:15 PM
rockette - 2016-04-19 3:14 PM 1DSoon - 2016-04-19 2:11 PM rockette - 2016-04-19 3:11 PM 3canstorun - 2016-04-19 1:15 PM Another clone has hit the barrel horse world. I wonder what is in store for Double Latte - Mary Walker's clone of Latte?
Will he go to the pen, or just stand for stud?
In my opinion, she would be smart to run him. Too many others are cloning just to stand at stud. I think smart money is on running him. So you would just let him sit like the others?
They have everything to lose if they run him and he's a dud. And very little to gain if he's decent to good.
The odds are he never stacks up to the orginal.
There is no proof that will happen. No barrel racing clone has completed. There is no basis for what might happen. Pretty expensive breeding dud to sit around.
I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if its been stated...
But Blaise has been running her clone of Red Man Bay. She just started hauling him this year and he's doing well.
How exciting! | |
| | |
 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| Burn n' Turn - 2016-04-19 11:57 PM
rodeoveteran - 2016-04-19 6:49 PM
Burn n' Turn - 2016-04-19 7:37 PM
In my honest opinion, why are we all on here fighting over an animal that you don't even own and you have nothing to do with? The owners will do with the clone what they choose to, and you won't have any impact on that. The decision is theirs to make, and they will be the ones that have to live with the consequences, NOT you.
And besides the point, how would a clone be any different than a full sibling? FWOTR has a full sibling, was there discussion on here about what the owners were going to do with him?
And people are going to think and do what they want. Some will breed to a full sibling/clone simply based on the performance of the siblings/original horse. While others will only breed to a stallion who has proven himself. To each their own, find something better to do then sit online and discuss something that has NOTHING to do with you.
There is a HUGH difference in between full siblings and a clone. When you have two complete sets of DNA contributing to offspring they an be combined in an almost infinite number on configurations. Did you take biology in high school? For example if you breed long haired guinea pigs with short haired guinea pigs, and add color with one hair type and color being dominant, you come up with a genotype ratio of 1/2/2/4/1/2/1/2/1 or a phenotype (appearance ) of 9/3/3/1. in other words you will have so many long haired white, short haired white, long haired black and short haired black g. pigs, but not all of those in any given group will have the same GENOTYPE, the genetics which they can pass on. And that is just TWO factors controlled by genetics. ( This is the same process by which those color calculators come up with color predictions ).
I never went much farther in to the study if genetics but have to wonder exactly how much influence the MITOCHONDRIAL DNA play, not to mention external chemistry etc., have to do with the final product. Perhaps our resident VIAGEN rep can give his two cents? And all of that does not answer the nature vs nurture question, i.e. would Scamper have been the force he was to be reckoned with if he had not had a less than ideal beginnings, and then to come to the hands of a young girl who became an incredible partner for whatever reasons?
Yes, I did take biology in high school but I guess I didn't care enough about it to stick with it and retain anything about cloning and DNA. I am however a business person and would be more than happy to write you a lovely report highlighting a cost/benefit analysis of all of the situations like just standing him, competing and him doing well and standing him, competing and him being mediocre at best and trying to stand him. Each scenario had its own costs and potential benefits, the owners just have to make the decision on their own as to how much risk they are willing to assume.
I was not being snarky, not everyone did take Biology in high school. | |
| | |
 MEOW!
Posts: 4477
Location: High heels in the air... | http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/07/polo-horse-cloning-adolfo-ca...
They have been cloning polo ponies for quite some time...they are riding them too!!
Congrats to the new StarBucker!!! | |
| | |
Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Sharp - 2016-04-21 7:07 PM Cloning has been done a lot here in Brazil especially with dairy and beef bulls. What has shown is that the clones DO NOT produce near to the level of the original animal. Here in Brazil, you can clone your horse or bull and get 3 foals/calves for the cost of around $40,000. I thought about doing it on my FWF stud just to get three geldings to ride because it would be a lot cheaper to clone him than to buy and send to Brazil own sons of FWF. But as for the cloning, its pretty proven here that the clones dont become what the original was, or even close.
.... And this is why I do not see it as a threat.
Epigenetics is early in the realm of study, but very early studies show that it is heritable and influenced by environment. For those unfamiliar, Epigenetics is the study of how these genes are expressed. Gene expression is altered by many, many things. It is a complicated area that was largely dismissed as "voodoo genetics" by scientists until more recently when better methods of study have been developed.
I feel as time progresses, the clones will be shown to not be as valuable as the original animals as producers.
I also think that as time progresses, even now, we see better and faster horses with each generation of selective breeding. Records are always being broken. I think that in time people will realize the value of contiunually improving the breed, and the value of breeding to the next generation can actually be better than breeding to a big name of the past.
Genetics is a fascinating field, and will truly define human medicine in coming years. I suggest everyone, especially those breeding horses, should become familiar with the field at a basic level simply because this will be important in the medical field for many years to come. Plus, it is very interesting. (But again I'm a nerd, so there you go) | |
| | |
Location: Not Where I Want to Be | I'm waiting on my Triceritops to be born
| |
| | |
A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | The colt I saw for sale was really at a reasonable price, I was thinking the babys that were out of a clone were going to be real high dollar, I know that some of the stud fees were really up there, but maybe since this baby I saw is from the owners cloned stud hes going to keep the babys at a reasonable price. And this baby is a nice looking thing with a pretty hip. | |
| | |
 Cute Little Imp
Posts: 2747
Location: N Texas | 1DSoon - 2016-04-22 8:19 AM
I'm waiting on my Triceritops to be born
Watch out for poachers!
 (Triceratops.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
 Triceratops.jpg (53KB - 168 downloads)
| |
| | |
A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Gunner11 - 2016-04-22 9:58 AM 1DSoon - 2016-04-22 8:19 AM I'm waiting on my Triceritops to be born
Watch out for poachers!
I want one too and a Unicorn.  | |
| | |
 Pres. ViaGen
Posts: 46
| I had the opportunity to see the Double Latte cloned foal yesterday with my own eyes...and wow! he is a nice foal. Also, I hadn't seen the Frenchman's Guy cloned stallions since I delivered them years ago, and wow! again. They are super nice. I booked a mare to the FG cloned stallions (impossible for me to resist) and we are already fired up about another baby next year. As I stated before, there are multiple roads that can lead to great outcomes. I have seen the early movers with technology benefit in dairy, club calves, show pigs, goats, deer, polo horses, Olympic sport horses, and I am thoroughly enjoying the ride. Lots of discussion on here about the impact of breeding techniques on the future of the horse industry. I believe the responsibility is there for the breeders to use effectively. The answer isn't in prohibiting something because if used incorrectly, then it can cause harm. In that case we wouldn't have cars, hammers, or about any other tool. We need to understand our tools and use them to their best purpose. Thank you for the opportunity to share my opinions openly and I enjoy this forum. | |
| | |
Location: Not Where I Want to Be | Blake Russell - 2016-04-22 11:13 AM I had the opportunity to see the Double Latte cloned foal yesterday with my own eyes...and wow! he is a nice foal. Also, I hadn't seen the Frenchman's Guy cloned stallions since I delivered them years ago, and wow! again. They are super nice. I booked a mare to the FG cloned stallions (impossible for me to resist) and we are already fired up about another baby next year. As I stated before, there are multiple roads that can lead to great outcomes. I have seen the early movers with technology benefit in dairy, club calves, show pigs, goats, deer, polo horses, Olympic sport horses, and I am thoroughly enjoying the ride. Lots of discussion on here about the impact of breeding techniques on the future of the horse industry. I believe the responsibility is there for the breeders to use effectively. The answer isn't in prohibiting something because if used incorrectly, then it can cause harm. In that case we wouldn't have cars, hammers, or about any other tool. We need to understand our tools and use them to their best purpose. Thank you for the opportunity to share my opinions openly and I enjoy this forum.
I've never heard a chef give a bad review of his own cooking.
| |
| | |
Pres. ViaGen
Posts: 46
| Touche'. As I said, I enjoy the forum. | |
| | |
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 993
Location: Northern California | Cloning is like everything else in the horse industry: A gamble!! It just so happens to come w a higher price tag. Good luck to all the clones and their connections!!  | |
| | |
Veteran
Posts: 102
| Blake Russell - 2016-04-22 10:13 AM
I had the opportunity to see the Double Latte cloned foal yesterday with my own eyes...and wow! he is a nice foal. Also, I hadn't seen the Frenchman's Guy cloned stallions since I delivered them years ago, and wow! again. They are super nice. I booked a mare to the FG cloned stallions (impossible for me to resist) and we are already fired up about another baby next year. As I stated before, there are multiple roads that can lead to great outcomes. I have seen the early movers with technology benefit in dairy, club calves, show pigs, goats, deer, polo horses, Olympic sport horses, and I am thoroughly enjoying the ride. Lots of discussion on here about the impact of breeding techniques on the future of the horse industry. I believe the responsibility is there for the breeders to use effectively. The answer isn't in prohibiting something because if used incorrectly, then it can cause harm. In that case we wouldn't have cars, hammers, or about any other tool. We need to understand our tools and use them to their best purpose. Thank you for the opportunity to share my opinions openly and I enjoy this forum.
^^^^^^^^ Give them facts, it kills the argument!! | |
| |
| |
Folks on-line