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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
 
Location: Oklahoma | Southtxponygirl - 2016-03-29 11:01 AM
Longneck - 2016-03-29 10:46 AM What are buy backs?
Its when you do away with your first run and buy another run.
Thanks, Roxie! | |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | you can't help but notice that a vast majority of the folks in favor of equal pay out are not running in the 1d
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | NJJ - 2016-03-29 11:02 AM Southtxponygirl - 2016-03-29 9:08 AM SC Wrangler - 2016-03-29 8:57 AM ropenrun - 2016-03-29 3:03 AM I don't care what the format is. You enter if you want or you don't. And as a producer I am always thinking outside the box and coming up with alternative formats that attract people. You have to go with what is of interest in your specific area. Western Canada with many of their jackpots do .7 splits. I don't care for them because it isn't what I am used to. That doesn't make them wrong, it happens to be what works well for them. And if you sanction with an association, you go by whatever their rules happen to be. ABRA is .7 splits, NBHA is .5 and 1, one rodeo assn pays 5 places with 60 entries, another pays 10 places with 50 entries. Payoff rules are set to what works for them in their local area or region or whatever the assn wants it to be..
I also remember when the 3D which evolved to the 4D and 5D formats first started up and some of the pro girls saying this was the stupidest thing they had ever heard of and would never go. Hmm,I see the names of those same individuals entering the 4D's now that they are long in the tooth and don't put on the miles they once used to. Or they figured out it was a great place to season their young horses without having to pay a $120 entry fee. I have produced progressive, equal, buy backs, and a variety of other formats and people either come or they don't. It worked well for me because I know longer had my pro horse and couldn't afford another one because my focus changed to making sure my kids were mounted. I was starting over at the bottom. And when the wolves of the area don't show up, it gives someone else the chance to win that might be a donator most of the time. And maybe that was just the incentive that person needed to give them a little more desire, figure out a way to save more money to buy a better horse or whatever. I don't look at any format as negative. If it works then there was some positives in there somewhere. Our local weekly rodeo series changed from a standard rodeo payoff barrel race to a 3D with 1/2 splits payoff. It went from 10 entries to 45 entries. Ph., but that isn't rodeo some said. Well it might not be but it increased the number of entries which increased the payout, increased the gate from all the grandmas, grandpas, cousins, neighbors who went to watch the kid next door, made the concession more money because of the bigger gate, and it put more money in the contractors pocket. You do what you have to do to make it work for the majority. Sometimes you have to throw tradition out the door. Wow a calm, logical voice of reason!!! 
Very true to what Norma said  Its just to bad the Producers cant please everybody  | |
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 A very grounded girl
Posts: 5052
Location: Moving soon..... | 1DSoon - 2016-03-29 11:10 AM you can't help but notice that a vast majority of the folks in favor of equal pay out are not running in the 1d
I have seen a 1D horse go out and make a terrible run and place in that "equal payout" barrel race and not complain. As previously stated, it your preference. If you hate it don't go. | |
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 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| 1DSoon - 2016-03-29 11:10 AM you can't help but notice that a vast majority of the folks in favor of equal pay out are not running in the 1d
You'll also notice that the vast majority of barrel racers are not 1D competitors. It's no different than any other sport that uses a handicap to encourage recreational participation like golf, tennis or even team roping.
Unlike team roping, even with equal pay, 1D barrel racers get the luxury of higher payouts from the larger participation from 2, 3 and 4D participants. Low numbered ropings almost always have a higher participation rate and payout than the high numbered roping. Be careful what you wish for. Without those recreational barrel racers, producers can't make a profit on just 1D competitors. Shows disappear and so do large payouts. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| Here's a payout from a recent large USTRC roping. I bet the sharks would kill to have equal payout.
Open ($4,000)
#15 Handicap ($8,960)
#13 Handicap ($14,410)
#12 ($8,480)
#11 ($17,280)
#10 ($23,770)
#8 PickDraw ($24,810)
#9 ($34,250) | |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be |
The main difference with that is that each roping is being run individually.
even if they run the 8/9 toghter they are seperate ropings. And typically the higher number ropings have higher fees.
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Location: In my own little world | Southtxponygirl - 2016-03-29 10:01 AM Longneck - 2016-03-29 10:46 AM What are buy backs? Its when you do away with your first run and buy another run.
Yep, a buyback is like a mulligan, a do-over. You weren't happy with your 1st run, you pay another entry fee (of which when I produce I don't take out my producer percentage on the buyback. I just figure the portion that actually goes into the payoff and that is the fee for the additional run). You can buyback a run for any reason. But whatever your time is on the 2nd run, that is the time you stick with. So if you didn't like your 1st run because it was sloppy, but you got a time, you can purchase another run and if you happen to tip on your second run, your official time is a NT. It does work well if you have a jackpot after Dec 1st when futurity colts can start making official runs. That's when I mainly do buyback races because they will often take advantage of it. | |
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Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| 1DSoon - 2016-03-29 11:55 AM The main difference with that is that each roping is being run individually.
even if they run the 8/9 toghter they are seperate ropings. And typically the higher number ropings have higher fees.
Bingo! That's the whole point.
Without the recreational competitors, payouts go down and fees go up.
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Location: In my own little world | 1DSoon - 2016-03-29 10:10 AM you can't help but notice that a vast majority of the folks in favor of equal pay out are not running in the 1d
For starters, that is rather presumptuoius. I have seen a lot of instances where those running in the 1D were quite happy with equal payout when it meant the event got 2x the entries with equal payout rather than what the payout was when it was run in a traditional format. Because of that, equal payout paid them more.
But location also plays a huge part in all of it. You cater to the majority. I have always said that those with 1D horses have more options than those who don't. They can compete on the rodeo level or slot raesc, etc if they choose because they are capable of winning money there. Those with 2-4D horses are limited to jackpots if they want a chance to win money. You do what you need to do to perpetuate the industry.
And I can't tell you how many times I have heard remarks on how many places are paid to barrel racers at WPRA sanctioned rodeos. A high profile rodeo cowboy and NFR contestant back in the day always used to joke that the WPRA paid so many places in the barrel race that when they ran out of money the rest got ribbons! As NJJ said, it didn't used to be that way. I'm old enough to have been a part of that. Now they might pay 11 holes with last getting a check for $60. You sure don't see that 11th place person complaining about that itty bitty check!
As far as comparing to team roping, there are a lot of ropings that offer "quaranteed" payout in higher numbered ropings. To a degree, it is the same gamble as equal payout. Sometimes it is to the advantage of the roper, sometimes the producer. If a roper figures "quaranteed" is going to screw him/her over and might not win as much they make their own choice to enter or not enter. Everything we do in life is about choices, some we make are good and some are not so good. Might as well be learned at an early age because it is reality.
But again, it all goes back to support the event or don't. If it works for the majority, that is who producers are going to cater to no matter the payout choice, otherwise they aren't making money either. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1440
Location: Texas | FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 1:02 PM
Ok, I didn't read all of the comments because it started irritating me with politics being brought in (seriously? So STUPID).
I used to run a solid paint horse (horse in my profile picture), the first real barrel horse I'd ever rode, and I was training her myself (ZERO barrel anything before we got her). She was a 4yo, rough past, with a new rider. I'm sure people thought it was hilarious watching us try to get around the pattern at a slow lope. But I didn't care, I was happy enough to place in the 4D, even if it was only $15 at times.
Flash forward 4 years, and this same horse and rider won a state top 10 award in the 2D, I was just as proud of my horse to be winning in the 2D as I was when she was placing in the 4D. Sure, the money was better up there, but it wasn't the point.
If you are in these 4D races for the money, you are in the wrong part of the sport. That's not the point of the 4D race. I've been to over 200 barrel races with this horse, and I can count the amount of times I've made my money back on two hands (7, to be exact). But that doesn't matter to me. If it mattered, I'd be running a top papered, bought trained $20,000 horse - not the horse we traded a western pleasure reject for, who had no training at all, and who has papers that has literally no barrel horses anywhere.
What is the point to this monologue, you might ask?
The point is, why do people feel that the amount of money you earn is indicative of being better than anyone else? I would never say that the people in the 1D were better than us just because they win more money. We worked harder than them to be there, we worked harder than them to stay there.
Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders.
Money should not be the sole reason you barrel race. If it is, I'm afraid that you are in the wrong area at the 4Ds.
This response is for the gal who thinks it is easy to jump on a " trained" horse and go win. I have been running a " trained" horse for the last 11 yrs and every run still takes effort from me. Some horses no matter how easy they looked to ride are not. So anytime you want to make a run on my trained 1d horse I will pay your fees to let you see just how easy it is! | |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Longneck - 2016-03-29 11:08 AM Southtxponygirl - 2016-03-29 11:01 AM Longneck - 2016-03-29 10:46 AM What are buy backs? Its when you do away with your first run and buy another run. Thanks, Roxie!
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| barrelbasher - 2016-03-29 3:23 PM
FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 1:02 PM
Ok, I didn't read all of the comments because it started irritating me with politics being brought in (seriously? So STUPID).
I used to run a solid paint horse (horse in my profile picture), the first real barrel horse I'd ever rode, and I was training her myself (ZERO barrel anything before we got her). She was a 4yo, rough past, with a new rider. I'm sure people thought it was hilarious watching us try to get around the pattern at a slow lope. But I didn't care, I was happy enough to place in the 4D, even if it was only $15 at times.
Flash forward 4 years, and this same horse and rider won a state top 10 award in the 2D, I was just as proud of my horse to be winning in the 2D as I was when she was placing in the 4D. Sure, the money was better up there, but it wasn't the point.
If you are in these 4D races for the money, you are in the wrong part of the sport. That's not the point of the 4D race. I've been to over 200 barrel races with this horse, and I can count the amount of times I've made my money back on two hands (7, to be exact). But that doesn't matter to me. If it mattered, I'd be running a top papered, bought trained $20,000 horse - not the horse we traded a western pleasure reject for, who had no training at all, and who has papers that has literally no barrel horses anywhere.
What is the point to this monologue, you might ask?
The point is, why do people feel that the amount of money you earn is indicative of being better than anyone else? I would never say that the people in the 1D were better than us just because they win more money. We worked harder than them to be there, we worked harder than them to stay there.
Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders.
Money should not be the sole reason you barrel race. If it is, I'm afraid that you are in the wrong area at the 4Ds.
This response is for the gal who thinks it is easy to jump on a " trained" horse and go win. I have been running a " trained" horse for the last 11 yrs and every run still takes effort from me. Some horses no matter how easy they looked to ride are not. So anytime you want to make a run on my trained 1d horse I will pay your fees to let you see just how easy it is!
I've actually took someone up on an offer like this one time. They thought I wouldn't last a run on her since I never race 1D horses.... we placed 2nd in the 1D (she won the 1D with her normal rider). Now, she was not an easy ride, but she was a hell of a lot easier than my horse was to run. Hands down - she was a push style, which I really like. Don't think that because the horse is a lower division that it is easier to ride either, because that is often not the case.
I also think people are thinking of my term 'trained' too vaguely. I didn't think of all the definitions of it when I typed it up. So I apologize for the vagueness of that - When I used the word 'trained' in the 'bought trained' sense. I meant the automatics. The horses where you strap yourself on and hold on tight because that horse is running barrels with or without you. I have plenty of friends who bought horses that were taught barrels by someone else, but they were not 'bought trained'. You still have to ride it.
I feel like that has irritated some people that thought I was saying all horses bought with barrel training are easy to ride, and that wasn't what I meant. I just used a regional term that got misunderstood. Sorry. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 927
Location: Iowa | Interesting idea. It all comes down to picking where you want to go. If you don't like the idea then go to another race with the payout your interested in competing for. | |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | PalominoLuvr2241 - 2016-03-28 5:01 PM OH Boy! I never meant to start anything. I didn't realize there were so many sides regarding this kind of payout. I was just asking what it was. Here in Colorado I have never seen any. And as the new president of our local barrel racing club I just want to try and learn as much as I can.
Oh you didnt start anything its just happens on here some times. Theres some that think that they are just smarter then others. And that can be pretty intertaining  | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | Karol - 2016-03-29 10:24 AM
1DSoon - 2016-03-29 11:10 AM you can't help but notice that a vast majority of the folks in favor of equal pay out are not running in the 1d
I have seen a 1D horse go out and make a terrible run and place in that "equal payout" barrel race and not complain. As previously stated, it your preference. If you hate it don't go.
I know many 1D riders that love the equal payouts because they know anyone can have a bad day. They know that if its their turn to have a bad day they still get a good payout if they place in a lower division. | |
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 Saint Stacey
| For the love of all that is holy....PLEASE LET THIS THREAD DIE!!!! | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
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FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 1:02 PM
Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders.
Nobody is saying one's value as a person is dependent on how much money they have won. But don't tell me that it doesn't affect the value of the horse.
We have now redefined what the word "competition" is. Last time I checked a completion is judged or timed and ranked best/fastest performance.
Someone is ALWAYS unhappy.
First come the divisional races so folks have a better opportunity to make some money back.
Then we have rollovers so that people don't have to "run their horses to death" . A Assn around here has TWO runs and no average per group (and with the 4D format you are lucky to get your entry fee back if you win the 1D ) but then want rollovers at NBHA, IBRA shows because they don't want to put the extra run on their horse to run open and youth/masters whatever.
NOW I see buy backs so that the same people want another chance if they have a crappy run.
Like I said before, I liked it a whole lot better when there was a novice horse/novice rider. They said that people misrepresented their eligibility. It is SO much cleared now........NOT
Sure will be glad when my new horse is seasoned. Last weekend I spent 16 hours to attend a barrel race 100 miles away. I could have driven 300-350 miles to enter a rodeo and spent about the same amount of time and money. There. There is my whine for the day. Y'all get equal payout, I get equal whine time. | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| rodeoveteran - 2016-03-31 9:52 AM FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 1:02 PM Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders. Nobody is saying one's value as a person is dependent on how much money they have won. But don't tell me that it doesn't affect the value of the horse. We have now redefined what the word "competition" is. Last time I checked a completion is judged or timed and ranked best/fastest performance. Someone is ALWAYS unhappy. First come the divisional races so folks have a better opportunity to make some money back. Then we have rollovers so that people don't have to "run their horses to death" . A Assn around here has TWO runs and no average per group (and with the 4D format you are lucky to get your entry fee back if you win the 1D ) but then want rollovers at NBHA, IBRA shows because they don't want to put the extra run on their horse to run open and youth/masters whatever. NOW I see buy backs so that the same people want another chance if they have a crappy run. Like I said before, I liked it a whole lot better when there was a novice horse/novice rider. They said that people misrepresented their eligibility. It is SO much cleared now........NOT Sure will be glad when my new horse is seasoned. Last weekend I spent 16 hours to attend a barrel race 100 miles away. I could have driven 300-350 miles to enter a rodeo and spent about the same amount of time and money. There. There is my whine for the day. Y'all get equal payout, I get equal whine time.
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | rodeomom3 - 2016-03-31 10:39 AM rodeoveteran - 2016-03-31 9:52 AM FlyingHigh1454 - 2016-03-26 1:02 PM Saying someone is worse than someone else just because they earn less money? That is just wrong. It takes zero effort to jump on a trained horse and win. Anyone can do that. It's those horses that are hard to ride, who don't just do it themselves, those prove the real riders. It's those guys who can be asked to get on a problem horse they have never rode before, and make a nice run on it, those are the real riders. Nobody is saying one's value as a person is dependent on how much money they have won. But don't tell me that it doesn't affect the value of the horse. We have now redefined what the word "competition" is. Last time I checked a completion is judged or timed and ranked best/fastest performance. Someone is ALWAYS unhappy. First come the divisional races so folks have a better opportunity to make some money back. Then we have rollovers so that people don't have to "run their horses to death" . A Assn around here has TWO runs and no average per group (and with the 4D format you are lucky to get your entry fee back if you win the 1D ) but then want rollovers at NBHA, IBRA shows because they don't want to put the extra run on their horse to run open and youth/masters whatever. NOW I see buy backs so that the same people want another chance if they have a crappy run. Like I said before, I liked it a whole lot better when there was a novice horse/novice rider. They said that people misrepresented their eligibility. It is SO much cleared now........NOT Sure will be glad when my new horse is seasoned. Last weekend I spent 16 hours to attend a barrel race 100 miles away. I could have driven 300-350 miles to enter a rodeo and spent about the same amount of time and money. There. There is my whine for the day. Y'all get equal payout, I get equal whine time.
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