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  Roan Wonder
   
Location: SW MO | Bottom line is The Lord wants us to love him, love each other and be kind.
The rest we have to muddle through and do our best with. Each of us will read the Bible different & get a different understanding from it.
I can write the sky is blue and some will take it as it's blue in color, some will take it a different way.
Every person you listen to will teach you a little different, every church you go to will believe a little different.
God doesn't expect us to be perfect in fact far from it, he just ask for your love & that we be kind to each other. Remember God made us all | |
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 Proud American Patriot
Posts: 8715
 
Location: Watertown, SD | "Schaff writes in the Schaff- Herzog Encyclopedia of religious knowledge 1891 Ed., vol.4 Article on Sunday. "Sunday… was adopted by the early Christians as a day of worship.. . Sunday was emphatically the weekly feast of the resurrection of Christ, as the Jewish Sabbath was the feast of creation. It was called the Lords day, and upon it the primitive church assembled to break bread. No regulations for its observance are laid down in the new testament nor, indeed, is its observance even enjoined. Yet Christian feeling led to the universal adoption of the day, in imitation of the apostolic precedence. In the second century its observance was universal." In other words this wasn’t to replace the Sabbath but held as a whole new day for a new dispensation" crosspur Other than the choice of the word "primitive" used to describe the Church, this is historically accurate. The Church took on a highly organized form very quickly. Christians didn't at all worry that Sunday wasn't designated in the NT because, well, the "New Testament" didn't yet exist as such. That came later. Authority comes from within the Church, not only from her writings. Early worship was patterned after OT worship; which makes sense since these were the traditions that they had been raised in. But they certainly did things that were distinct because of the Eucharistic role fulfilled by Christ. Their understanding and level of inspiration was nothing short of miraculous. You just can't make this stuff up. Christians worship on Sunday...and we do it for good reason.
Edited by srs 2013-12-18 12:52 PM
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 Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | crossspur - 2013-12-18 12:39 PM Just Bring It - 2013-12-18 12:05 PM crossspur - 2013-12-18 11:37 AM CrossDRanch - 2013-12-18 11:14 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 11:08 AM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 11:57 AM runs4fun - 2013-12-18 7:50 AM jenijill - 2013-12-18 9:58 AM Im going to ask OP this, are you sure Christianity is what you are looking for. Before all of you christians jump on me, there are many religions in the world. Maybe you should look into other religions that may fit your ideals better. I am not a christian but I dont push my religion on others. I think if you are lost and floundering and can not find your way, you may not be looking in the right direction. A custom fit religion that adheres to one's personal desires? Rather than us giving into His will for us and accepting His gift to us? Exactly what Satan loves to hear. Getting us to even think along those lines allows Satan to get a foothold on us, he just wants an opening and he'll do the rest, if we let him. A discussion such as we are having in this forum can work for God or for Satan, it's according one's own personal conviction and strength. As we try so hard to have things our way and turn our backs on the gifts God has given (the scriptures to guide us, his forgiveness through Christ) as Satan convinces us that there are other better ways we only end up suffering the consequences while throwing away the most amazing gifts...abundant life, eternal life, forgiveness of our wrongs, peace that can only come through Him. Makes me sad to think that this happens to people. lol.....that brings up a whole other question....What day is the Sabbath, what is work, and what does it mean to keep it holy? In the old testament of the Bible
the Sabbath was on Saturday, but the resurrection of Christ changed it to Sunday.
The crucifixion & resurrection changed many things, such as having to do sacrifices.
The verse above tells you no work, while going to a barrel race maybe fun and restful for you, it would be work for your horse. A lot of people say my horse has to earn it's own way. So you might say if you would have your horse even if you didn't barrel race then maybe you could say it was just barrel racing for fun, but if you would sale your horse if you quit barrel racing then racing is it's job
This is what I have trouble with. I have heard this arguement before but where exactly does the Bible say this? It is one of the Commandments and where in the Bible does it say that the holy Sabbath day has been changed from the 7th day to the 1st? I have never come across a place where it says that.
"2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Genesis 2:2-3 KJV)
"20:8 Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Exodus 20:8-11 KJV)
I have heard that it was changed to the first day because that is the day the Jesus was resurrected but that doesn't make sense either. Christ was crucified the day before Sabbath but not weekly Sabbath. He was crucified before annual Sabbath, Passover. Christ also said that the only proof that he was the Messiah was that he would be in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights. If he was crucified on Friday and rose on Sunday that would be 2 nights and 1 day. So he was crucified on Wednesday afternoon, with the burial before sunset, and the resurrection was Sabbath afternoon before sunset. When Peter, John, and Mary arrived at the tomb early Sunday morning, the resurrection had already occured. It was before sunrise because it was still dark but the tomb was already empty (John 20:1). If Christ was place in the tomb in later afternoon near sunset (Mathew 27:57), and woulr arise 72 hours later. He would therefore have arisen also on a late afternoon, near sunset, 3 days later.
So I guess I just have trouble understanding how Sunday became the new Sabbath?Schaff writes in the Schaff- Herzog Encyclopedia of religious knowledge 1891 Ed., vol.4 Article on Sunday. "Sunday… was adopted by the early Christians as a day of worship.. . Sunday was emphatically the weekly feast of the resurrection of Christ, as the Jewish Sabbath was the feast of creation. It was called the Lords day, and upon it the primitive church assembled to break bread. No regulations for its observance are laid down in the new testament nor, indeed, is its observance even enjoined. Yet Christian feeling led to the universal adoption of the day, in imitation of the apostolic precedence. In the second century its observance was universal." In other words this wasn’t to replace the Sabbath but held as a whole new day for a new dispensation
But are we then taking what man decided to be best for us over what God had commanded? This is where I feel religion picks and choose what it wants to believe. It customizes it to fit what it wants. Many religions do not preach the Bible, the Word of God.
This is copied from keyway.ca...This site does a very good job of explaining some questions I have had. The author is not of any church organizatin and bases his beliefs solely on the Word of God. "Sunday worship did not originate in the Bible, or in the reality of the events of the crucifixion and resurrection. All of the first Christians, including Peter, Paul, all of the apostles, Mary and Joseph, all of the people who wrote the Bible, and Jesus Christ Himself were seventh-day Sabbath keepers. All of them. So, where did Sunday worship come from? Gradually, the Roman empire that persecuted Christians began to adopt Christianity, or rather, its own self-serving version of Christianity, which was a blend of politics and religion, a little truth, but mostly outright Roman paganism - which included worship of the Roman sun god. Sunday worship came about as a pagan corruption of God's holy seventh-day Sabbath. By the fourth century, only Jews (by then, God's Sabbath was becoming known as the "Jewish" Sabbath), and a relatively few true Christians, continued to observe the seventh-day Sabbath as God commanded everyone. There is only one true God, and one true Sabbath. In 321, the Roman emperor Constantine issued an edict which outlawed work on the "venerable day of the sun," Sunday, and within 3 years the corrupted version of Christianity had become the official religion of the Roman empire. From that, the Roman Catholic Church, and its many Protestant daughter churches, got the commonly-accepted Sunday observance of today - utterly pagan in origin, and completely contrary to God's command. Traditions of men cannot save you. Only the Truth, and genuine obedience to it, is the way to salvation. If you didn't know the truth about Sunday before, now you do. And God knows that you do."
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Proud American Patriot
Posts: 8715
Location: Watertown, SD | Just Bring It, if you'd be interested in understanding more about early church woship history, I'd suggest two sources:
"The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware
"The Apostolic Fathers" Michael W. Holmes. This is a Greek text-inclusive compilation of writings from the *same time frame* as those found in the New Testament. For example, The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache. They witness to the worship and beliefs of the Early Church. It's thanks to them that we know that most of the writings included in the NT were already widely distributed as reflecting Christian traditions. Honestly, I don't know how anyone who seeks truth can ignore these, written by the earliest bishops and those who directly walked with and learned from the Apostles, once they learn that they exist and are right there for anyone to read. What they contain will surprise a whole lot of people within the Christian community...and will explain by a lot of "churches" would prefer to keep them under the table.
ETA: This is a quote from the Greek Orthodox website. Good, bad or indifferent (being an Orthodox Christian, I would say it is good), this is the single most unchanged Church in Christianity. And, yes, that includes not only Roman Catholics but also all of the protestant churches that have splintered from the RCC at and following the Reformation. The actual history, the records of all sorts, the practices...all of it...2,000 years of it can be found within the Orthodox Church. As such, it is a reliable source of historical information for *anyone.* Sunday has been recognized as the day of worship has sound Christological reasons and it has been practiced since the FIRST century. That is a fact. Yes, that took awhile. Not long, really. But it's true that it took awhile. Again, for an Orthodox Christian, this is no big deal. I find it so interesting how folks will accept all sorts of modern changes, additions and subtractions but reject the ancient, established practices, understandings and interpretations that have loooooooooooong been the pracitice of the Christian Church. Sunday worship predates the New Testament. Do those who worship on Saturday reject that also? Interestingly, no. These are things that cause me to scratch my head...not in a mean way, but in a confused way.
The most important day for the Christian community was and continues to be the First day of the Jewish week. For the people of the Old Covenant the First Day was a memorial of the first day of creation, when God separated the light from the darkness. For the people of the New Covenant the first day includes this and much more. The first was the day when the empty tomb was first discovered and the risen Lord made His first appearances to His followers. The first was the day of the Resurrection ofChrist and the beginning of the new creation brought about by His victory over death. By the end of the first century the Church gave to this special day of Christ's resurrection a distinctly Christian name: the Lord's Day (Kyriake hemera) (Rev. 1: 10).
The Lord's Day (Sunday) is a Christian institution.
Edited by srs 2013-12-18 1:55 PM
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | srs - 2013-12-18 1:28 PM Just Bring It, if you'd be interested in understanding more about early church woship history, I'd suggest two sources:
"The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware
"The Apostolic Fathers" Michael W. Holmes. This is a Greek text-inclusive compilation of writings from the *same time frame* as those found in the New Testament. For example, The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache. They witness to the worship and beliefs of the Early Church. It's thanks to them that we know that most of the writings included in the NT were already widely distributed as reflecting Christian traditions. Honestly, I don't know how anyone who seeks truth can ignore these, written by the earliest bishops and those who directly walked with and learned from the Apostles, once they learn that they exist and are right there for anyone to read. What they contain will surprise a whole lot of people within the Christian community...and will explain by a lot of "churches" would prefer to keep them under the table.
ETA: This is a quote from the Greek Orthodox website. Good, bad or indifferent (being an Orthodox Christian, I would say it is good), this is the single most unchanged Church in Christianity. And, yes, that includes not only Roman Catholics but also all of the protestant churches that have splintered from the RCC at and following the Reformation. The actual history, the records of all sorts, the practices...all of it...2,000 years of it can be found within the Orthodox Church. As such, it is a reliable source of historical information for *anyone.* Sunday has been recognized as the day of worship has sound Christological reasons and it has been practiced since the FIRST century. That is a fact. Yes, that took awhile. Not long, really. But it's true that it took awhile. Again, for an Orthodox Christian, this is no big deal. I find it so interesting how folks will accept all sorts of modern changes, additions and subtractions but reject the ancient, established practices, understandings and interpretations that have loooooooooooong been the pracitice of the Christian Church. Sunday worship predates the New Testament. Do those who worship on Saturday reject that also? Interestingly, no. These are things that cause me to scratch my head...not in a mean way, but in a confused way.
The most important day for the Christian community was and continues to be the First day of the Jewish week. For the people of the Old Covenant the First Day was a memorial of the first day of creation, when God separated the light from the darkness. For the people of the New Covenant the first day includes this and much more. The first was the day when the empty tomb was first discovered and the risen Lord made His first appearances to His followers. The first was the day of the Resurrection ofChrist and the beginning of the new creation brought about by His victory over death. By the end of the first century the Church gave to this special day of Christ's resurrection a distinctly Christian name: the Lord's Day (Kyriake hemera) (Rev. 1: 10).
The Lord's Day (Sunday) is a Christian institution.
Thanks for that quote. I was just going to ask for a little summary or quote of what those books say since I am curious and cannot get the books right at the moment...lol. That helps bring a little better understanding to Sunday worship. It is definitely a topic I want to learn more about and study. It is interesting to say the least. | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | I just came across this article and it does a pretty good job of explaining the time frame of when Christ rose. http://rcg.org/books/crwnos.html
Like I said it is something I definitely want to look into more. To me even if Sunday worship was put into place to celebrate the Lord's day it does not change the 4th Commandment made by God. So even if people do want to worship on Sunday to celebrate the resurrection (though I have my doubts that that was on Sunday) should they not also keep the Sabbath day as commanded by God which is the 7th day? | |
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 Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | Just Bring It - 2013-12-18 12:04 PM srs - 2013-12-18 1:28 PM Just Bring It, if you'd be interested in understanding more about early church woship history, I'd suggest two sources:
"The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware
"The Apostolic Fathers" Michael W. Holmes. This is a Greek text-inclusive compilation of writings from the *same time frame* as those found in the New Testament. For example, The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache. They witness to the worship and beliefs of the Early Church. It's thanks to them that we know that most of the writings included in the NT were already widely distributed as reflecting Christian traditions. Honestly, I don't know how anyone who seeks truth can ignore these, written by the earliest bishops and those who directly walked with and learned from the Apostles, once they learn that they exist and are right there for anyone to read. What they contain will surprise a whole lot of people within the Christian community...and will explain by a lot of "churches" would prefer to keep them under the table.
ETA: This is a quote from the Greek Orthodox website. Good, bad or indifferent (being an Orthodox Christian, I would say it is good), this is the single most unchanged Church in Christianity. And, yes, that includes not only Roman Catholics but also all of the protestant churches that have splintered from the RCC at and following the Reformation. The actual history, the records of all sorts, the practices...all of it...2,000 years of it can be found within the Orthodox Church. As such, it is a reliable source of historical information for *anyone.* Sunday has been recognized as the day of worship has sound Christological reasons and it has been practiced since the FIRST century. That is a fact. Yes, that took awhile. Not long, really. But it's true that it took awhile. Again, for an Orthodox Christian, this is no big deal. I find it so interesting how folks will accept all sorts of modern changes, additions and subtractions but reject the ancient, established practices, understandings and interpretations that have loooooooooooong been the pracitice of the Christian Church. Sunday worship predates the New Testament. Do those who worship on Saturday reject that also? Interestingly, no. These are things that cause me to scratch my head...not in a mean way, but in a confused way.
The most important day for the Christian community was and continues to be the First day of the Jewish week. For the people of the Old Covenant the First Day was a memorial of the first day of creation, when God separated the light from the darkness. For the people of the New Covenant the first day includes this and much more. The first was the day when the empty tomb was first discovered and the risen Lord made His first appearances to His followers. The first was the day of the Resurrection ofChrist and the beginning of the new creation brought about by His victory over death. By the end of the first century the Church gave to this special day of Christ's resurrection a distinctly Christian name: the Lord's Day (Kyriake hemera) (Rev. 1: 10).
The Lord's Day (Sunday) is a Christian institution. Thanks for that quote. I was just going to ask for a little summary or quote of what those books say since I am curious and cannot get the books right at the moment...lol. That helps bring a little better understanding to Sunday worship. It is definitely a topic I want to learn more about and study. It is interesting to say the least.
So Christians changed the Sabbath? I guess I dont understand, "For I testify unto everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, and from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | Della&bubba - 2013-12-17 7:31 PM
That's one of the things we discussed. If religion is completely taken out of the world and atheism strengthened, would their still be morals? I think there would be because I'm an atheist and I believe in the golden rule of do unto others that you would do unto you. But then I'd start to think and I feel on the other hand there are people who really need that looming idea of a greater punishment to stay fairly well on the straight and narrow (not implying you do but the general population as a whole). I don't know. This topic interests me a lot. Religion fascinates me, which is weird because I don't believe in it haha.
Some people do need that looming over them. Religion is simple and if everyone plays along, nobody has to face the tough questions. Anyone who has read the bible front to back and doesn't have some serious questions either can't read for comprehension, or simply willfully suspends their disbelief. My morals come from treating others the way I want to be treated. It couldn't be any simpler than that. Frankly, those that require the threat of eternal torture to keep them in check share the **** out of me. Of course, prisons are full of repenters... | |
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Posts: 47
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | I found another interesting article about the Lord's Day. http://www.sabbathtruth.com/faq/advanced-topics/what-about-the-lords-day.aspx
I love these types of topics. It makes me study and remember why I believe what I believe and it brings me closer to Him. I also love learning new things on why others believe what they do. History is so interesting to me. | |
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 Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | I think the fact that you are on here asking and really interested is that the holy spirit is working on your heart. If you haven't seen Billy Grahams message, you need to. It's only 30 minutes long with 2 personal stories sounding similar to you. It is awesome to see how forgiving and loving God truly is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bba2Dqaw6SI | |
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS |
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 Cyber World Challenged
Posts: 2526
Location: My Own Little World | ok, I have in no way read all the posts on here, but here's my 2 cents. First off, humans made "religion" not God. Without God, there would be no morals because humans are born very selfish. And I do not believe there are mistakes in the Bible at all. Either God is who He says He is, or He's a liar.
Science DOES prove the Bible all the time. Please look athttp://www.icr.org/ for a scientific view. There are many articles there. There's also a book I really like called "The Case For Christ".
I don't belong to any "religion", I am a follower of Jesus Christ. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | justcruzin - 2013-12-18 6:07 PM
grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM Â I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again.Â
My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened."  ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus (a greek philosopher who died 200 years before Jesus was born) | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 3:06 PM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 6:07 PM grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again.
My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus (a greek philosopher who died 200 years before Jesus was born )
This may help explain some of your questions. https://bible.org/seriespage/why-there-evil-and-suffering | |
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| Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 4:06 PM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 6:07 PM grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again.
My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus (a greek philosopher who died 200 years before Jesus was born )
In due time, HE will overcome evil. See the book of Revelations. The Bible is very clear about the fact that there will be tribulations here on earth, never once do the scriptures say there won't be. Most of the time we see scriptures quoted as a stand-alone verse but when you read them in the context of the entire book or chapter they are contained in they say something a little differently. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 142
| justcruzin - 2013-12-18 2:36 PM
Just Bring It - 2013-12-18 12:04 PM srs - 2013-12-18 1:28 PM Just Bring It, if you'd be interested in understanding more about early church woship history, I'd suggest two sources:
"The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware
"The Apostolic Fathers" Michael W. Holmes.  This is a Greek text-inclusive compilation of writings from the *same time frame* as those found in the New Testament.  For example, The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache.  They witness to the worship and beliefs of the Early Church. It's thanks to them that we know that most of the writings included in the NT were already widely distributed as reflecting Christian traditions. Honestly, I don't know how anyone who seeks truth can ignore these, written by the earliest bishops and those who directly walked with and learned from the Apostles, once they learn that they exist and are right there for anyone to read.  What they contain will surprise a whole lot of people within the Christian community...and will explain by a lot of "churches" would prefer to keep them under the table.
ETA: This is a quote from the Greek Orthodox website. Â Good, bad or indifferent (being an Orthodox Christian, I would say it is good), this is the single most unchanged Church in Christianity. Â And, yes, that includes not only Roman Catholics but also all of the protestant churches that have splintered from the RCC at and following the Reformation. The actual history, the records of all sorts, the practices...all of it...2,000 years of it can be found within the Orthodox Church. Â As such, it is a reliable source of historical information for *anyone.* Â Sunday has been recognized as the day of worship has sound Christological reasons and it has been practiced since the FIRST century. Â That is a fact. Yes, that took awhile. Â Not long, really. Â But it's true that it took awhile. Â Again, for an Orthodox Christian, this is no big deal. Â I find it so interesting how folks will accept all sorts of modern changes, additions and subtractions but reject the ancient, established practices, understandings and interpretations that have loooooooooooong been the pracitice of the Christian Church. Â Sunday worship predates the New Testament. Â Do those who worship on Saturday reject that also? Â Interestingly, no. These are things that cause me to scratch my head...not in a mean way, but in a confused way. Â Â
The most important day for the Christian community was and continues to be the First day of the Jewish week. For the people of the Old Covenant the First Day was a memorial of the first day of creation, when God separated the light from the darkness. For the people of the New Covenant the first day includes this and much more. The first was the day when the empty tomb was first discovered and the risen Lord made His first appearances to His followers. The first was the day of the Resurrection ofChrist and the beginning of the new creation brought about by His victory over death. By the end of the first century the Church gave to this special day of Christ's resurrection a distinctly Christian name: the Lord's Day (Kyriake hemera) (Rev. 1: 10).
The Lord's Day (Sunday) is a Christian institution. Thanks for that quote. I was just going to ask for a little summary or quote of what those books say since I am curious and cannot get the books right at the moment...lol. That helps bring a little better understanding to Sunday worship. It is definitely a topic I want to learn more about and study. It is interesting to say the least.  "For I testify unto everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, and from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
 Saturday is still the sabbath for orthodox and Sunday is the lords day. Funny the quote you stated was from the book of revelation ....which starts out stating that that the author was "in the spirit on the lords day" rev. 1:10. The visions he is describing is basically the Sunday lithurgy. | |
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 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| justcruzin - 2013-12-18 2:36 PM So Christians changed the Sabbath? I guess I dont understand, "For I testify unto everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, and from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
~~“Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. (Col. 2:16-17 ESV) | |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | angel123 - 2013-12-18 3:19 PM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 2:36 PM Just Bring It - 2013-12-18 12:04 PM srs - 2013-12-18 1:28 PM Just Bring It, if you'd be interested in understanding more about early church woship history, I'd suggest two sources:
"The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware
"The Apostolic Fathers" Michael W. Holmes. This is a Greek text-inclusive compilation of writings from the *same time frame* as those found in the New Testament. For example, The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache. They witness to the worship and beliefs of the Early Church. It's thanks to them that we know that most of the writings included in the NT were already widely distributed as reflecting Christian traditions. Honestly, I don't know how anyone who seeks truth can ignore these, written by the earliest bishops and those who directly walked with and learned from the Apostles, once they learn that they exist and are right there for anyone to read. What they contain will surprise a whole lot of people within the Christian community...and will explain by a lot of "churches" would prefer to keep them under the table.
ETA: This is a quote from the Greek Orthodox website. Good, bad or indifferent (being an Orthodox Christian, I would say it is good), this is the single most unchanged Church in Christianity. And, yes, that includes not only Roman Catholics but also all of the protestant churches that have splintered from the RCC at and following the Reformation. The actual history, the records of all sorts, the practices...all of it...2,000 years of it can be found within the Orthodox Church. As such, it is a reliable source of historical information for *anyone.* Sunday has been recognized as the day of worship has sound Christological reasons and it has been practiced since the FIRST century. That is a fact. Yes, that took awhile. Not long, really. But it's true that it took awhile. Again, for an Orthodox Christian, this is no big deal. I find it so interesting how folks will accept all sorts of modern changes, additions and subtractions but reject the ancient, established practices, understandings and interpretations that have loooooooooooong been the pracitice of the Christian Church. Sunday worship predates the New Testament. Do those who worship on Saturday reject that also? Interestingly, no. These are things that cause me to scratch my head...not in a mean way, but in a confused way.
The most important day for the Christian community was and continues to be the First day of the Jewish week. For the people of the Old Covenant the First Day was a memorial of the first day of creation, when God separated the light from the darkness. For the people of the New Covenant the first day includes this and much more. The first was the day when the empty tomb was first discovered and the risen Lord made His first appearances to His followers. The first was the day of the Resurrection ofChrist and the beginning of the new creation brought about by His victory over death. By the end of the first century the Church gave to this special day of Christ's resurrection a distinctly Christian name: the Lord's Day (Kyriake hemera) (Rev. 1: 10).
The Lord's Day (Sunday) is a Christian institution. Thanks for that quote. I was just going to ask for a little summary or quote of what those books say since I am curious and cannot get the books right at the moment...lol. That helps bring a little better understanding to Sunday worship. It is definitely a topic I want to learn more about and study. It is interesting to say the least. Saturday is still the sabbath for orthodox and Sunday is the lords day. Funny the quote you stated was from the book of revelation ....which starts out stating that that the author was " in the spirit on the lords day" rev. 1:10. The visions he is describing is basically the Sunday lithurgy.
If you read through the articles I posted about the Lord's Day they explain which day is the Lord's Day. Fromhttp://rcg.org/books/crwnos.html
There is another very important reason why theologians and many others must conclude that the resurrection was on Sunday! Sunday is commonly referred to as “the Lord’s Day.” While the true Lord’s Day of the Bible is actually the Day of the Lord—the day of his wrath (Joel 2:1-11; Rev. 1:10; 15:1, 7)—the term “the Lord’s Day” has come to be synonymous with Sunday. But why? The reason is simple. If Sunday can be established as the day that Christ was resurrected, it can be a means of validating and “authorizing” the keeping of Sunday by the churches of the world, in place of God’s true Sabbath. You have already seen references to the Sabbath day in this booklet. Exodus 20:8-11 shows that the keeping of the Sabbath is the Fourth Commandment! It was always the seventh day of the week and God never authorized Sunday—which would be keeping the first day instead. God hallowed it at creation—long before there were any Jews or Israelites to keep it (Gen. 2:1). The Sabbath was to be kept “forever”—“continually”—and “throughout the generations” of Israel, God’s intended model nation (Ex. 31:12-17). Christ kept it (Luke 4:16) and said that He was Lord of it and that it was “made for man” (Mark 2:27-28). He did not say it was “made for the Jews only.” Paul observed it (Acts 13:42, 44; 17:2; 18:4). The subject of keeping the Sabbath as God’s command for true Christians is a big subject requiring its own book to explain it. Therefore, more than the Good Friday-Easter Sunday tradition collapses if Christ was in the grave for 72 hours instead of 36. The largest single reason for the unscriptural tradition (recall Mark 7:7) of Sunday-keeping collapses at the same time. God has always said, “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy” (Ex. 20:8). He has never said, “Remember Sunday to keep it holy—and just call it the Lord’s day!” The reader is left to ponder this. (Request our free book Saturday or Sunday – Which Is the Sabbath? for absolute proof of which day is the Christian Sabbath.)
This is an excerpt from sabbathturth.com
I know there are those who say it doesn’t make any difference which day you keep, so long as you keep one day in seven. Ever hear anyone talk like that? Does it make a difference? Is any day acceptable to God? Let’s turn to the Book, to the Bible in your hand, and see what we discover. We shall read three simple, clear statements. First will you turn to Revelations 1:10. “I was in the spirit on the Lord’s day and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.”
Evidently the Lord has a day. But which day is it? “For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.” Matthew 12:8. There must be something different about the Sabbath. Through the prophet Isaiah God speaks of the Sabbath and calls it plainly “my holy day.” Isaiah 58:13. And no where in Scripture does He designate an other day as his.
The Lord, then, has a day. And that day is the Sabbath. But now we ask, which of theseven daysis the Sabbath? We turn for our answer to the very heart of the Ten Commandments. “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.” Exodus 20: 8-10. That is clear, isn’t it? Now we have learned three things. The Lord has a day. The Sabbath is the Lord’s day.The seventh day is the Sabbath.
And now verse 11. This tells us why God made the Sabbath. “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.” Evidently there is a mighty strong link between the Sabbath and creation and the Creator.
How does creation fit into the story?
By the way, who made the worlds? Who made this earth? You say, “God did.” Yes. But let’s turn to Ephesians 3: 9. “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.” John 1:10 declares “He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.” Could any statement be clearer? Yes, Christ, as He pre-existed before Bethlehem, created this world.
Watch what happened. “And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made.” Genesis 2: 2, 3. Do you see it now? The One who made this earth is the One who made the Sabbath. Jesus had every right to say, “The Son of man is Lord of the sabbathday.” For He had made it. He had every right to say, “If ye love Me, keep My commandments.” For it was He Himself, back in Eden, who first gave commandments to men. Do we really sense the impact of what we have just discovered? Listen. The Christ of Calvary is the Creator of Genesis. To reject one is to reject the other! Have you ever thought of that? To reject one is to reject the other! Oh friends, why do we try to isolate the Sabbath and put it off somewhere by itself? Why are we so unwilling to leave it just where God put it—in the very center of His eternal law? Do you know that if I would go into a city and talk about juvenile delinquency and community betterment and salvation from sin—if I should point men to the word of God regarding adultery, stealing, killing, and show how Christ can give victory—every Christian would stand right back of me and many non-Christians as well. They would say, “Brother Joe, what a wonderful work you are doing for humanity!” But the moment we mention the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, eyebrows are lifted. Questions are raised. Excuses are piled high. Why? I ask you. Why? It is perfectly all right to talk about the first or second commandment or the sixth or the seventh or the eighth. But don’t mention the fourth. Why? Let’s be consistent. You can see that the commandments stand or fall together. Either they are still in force or they aren’t. Either it’s wrong for me to lie and kill and steal, or it isn’t. We don’t make excuses for breaking the other commandments. Why the fourth? I have often wondered how so clear and simple a matter as our relationship to grace and the commandments of God—I say, I have often wondered how so clear and simple a matter can be made to appear so confusing. People say, “I’m saved by grace. I don’t need to keep the law.” Did you ever hear anybody reason like that? But friend, do grace and pardon release us from obedience to the very law that we have broken? If I am saved, will I pick your pocket? Will I lie? Will I steal? Will I kill? No. Commandment keeping becomes a possibility to the heart that loves his Lord. It’s love that makes all the difference. Do you see? Salvation from the power of sin is a gift from God. He cancels our sin debt of the past through no good works of our own. And then, when we are forgiven, it is our delight to do God’s will. Not to merit heaven, you understand. But because we love Him. Commandment keeping, you see, is not a means of salvation. It is an evidence of it. Keep that clear distinction in mind, and you will never have any confusion on this vital point. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | Just Bring It - 2013-12-19 12:15 AM
Phoenix98 - 2013-12-18 3:06 PM justcruzin - 2013-12-18 6:07 PM grullagirl - 2013-12-18 6:56 AM Â I believe bad things happen in this world because as of now Satan is free to roam the earth. The bible says he's seeking whom he may devour. We were given free will and humans took their eyes off God and were deceived by Satan. We were not promised the earth would be a paradise any longer. The bible tells us there will be struggles here but we are promised a comforter. It is so easy to say there is no God because bad things happen but we are told in scripture they will happen. In my darkest hours His promises have proven true time and time again.Â
My question is why did the prayers of a 10 year old chid go unanswered? Free will? What does free will have to do with unanswered prayers? I understand the free will part, but what happened to "Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened."  ????
Free will allowed the suffering, why did God not stop it?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus (a greek philosopher who died 200 years before Jesus was born ) https://bible.org/seriespage/why-there-evil-and-suffering
I don't have any questions. Not about christianity, at least. Been there, done that. I've since been to many places around the world, and guess what? They all believe- just as strongly as you do- that their path is the only correct one! Because that is the culture that surrounds them. For those who were 'reborn'- it was the support network that buoyed them when they felt weak. I believe in Satan as much as I believe in God, the tooth fairy and Poseidon (or the other 2000+ documented deities in human history). Other than influencing the laws I have to live by, usually by telling other people how they can live their lives (aren't you supposed to be free to find your own path?) none of these supernatural entities has a direct effect on my life. Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. There is no evidence of divine intervention. If a sick child recovers, praise to the heavens, but if she does not- well, 'it was god's plan'. Why pray in the first place then? Do you know better than God's plan? Do you think if you send up enough wishes you'll change his all-seeing, all-knowing mind? A girl is raped, but that's not god's plan- that's Satan. God was aware that it was happening, and did nothing to stop it? In that light, I might be considered more ethical than God, because I would risk my mortal life to stop such a thing. Then the Rapist repents and accepts jesus as his savior and he's good to live in the kingdom of heaven for ever and ever? I'm only using christianity because it's the topic of most of the posters here. All three of the Abrahamic religions are very similar, though. Love me, or I'll torture you forever. Talk about an abusive relationship.
I'm perfectly satisfied and joyously happy with the knowledge that life is short, and you get just one. I do not know what happens after I die, and I do not fear it. I take time to enjoy the things that make me smile. I do nice things for people. My loved ones do not wonder how I feel about them. I don't tell people I'll pray for them, I ask them how I can help. When I'm sick- I realize that having experienced that makes me appreciate feeling normal that much more. When I've had to deal with loss and strife, I take a look around me. As DH Lawrence wrote: “I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.”
The experience of life is a fascinating journey, and regardless of whether you choose to believe you were put here for a reason, or the result of random occurrences over a long period of time, your existence is to be celebrated. Live your life and don't worry about trying to live other people's lives for them! | |
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