We all have to figure out where we stand.  The buying public is getting more educated.  

I feel bad for the breeder that was doing their best and then got hit with this test to find a positive but was breeding for all the right reasons like confirmation, disposition, and ability. Because there are some big names out there breeding with your above mentioned flaws, pencil legs, parrot mouth, etc. that will continue to do so for the reasons you and ORBR have talked about, they are disposable. 

And ORBR, I was on that FB page and it seems at that time it was more of let’s blame everything on PSSM, right down to abscess so I got off it. And find the information here WAY more credible.

i feel bad for the ones that you can’t fix, but again, there are many horses with a navicular and other issues that can’t get fixed either. I spent the money and sent a negative across the board horse off to get trained and was coming along great till he broke his leg. There are just

no guarantees with any of them.

I have to agree with Easy Rider. It got to be a witch hunt and if a horse did anything wrong it was blamed on PSSM. In fact,  after reading some of the posts, my bet is half the people are novices and when Princess Sophia is naughty, they don't want to consider it's because she is fresh...or just being a chestnut mare

That’s why I got off there, it was never a horse just being a butt that day, it was never an abscess it was just blame everything on PSSM when a lot that I seen gave me no flag on PSSM.  But more of the chestnut mare lol 

but if you tried to say have u looked at..... they grill you at the stakes. I find so much more information over here where adults can talk, share and agree to disagree if that’s the case. 

Then there's the other side of the coin. Having a horse you don't know what is wrong. People tell you to get after them.  You do. Not only do they still have the issue, they are now trembling in fear.  I understand some people taking it to ridiculous lengths trying to explain everything away with one answer. That's just human nature. There is middle ground.   

I'm not sure where you are getting that information at but I can tell you that is not true at all. EquiSeq is not targeting certain bloodlines at all, especially Sun Frost or Streakin Six. 

What he is targetting is TBs, Arabs, Icelandics and draft horses. See, in most of the stock horses (QH, Apps and Paints) he has found P2, P3 and P4 that explains most of the positive muscle biopsies. Now, granted there are some with positive muscle biopsies that he hasn't found a gene for yet but I can tell you, he is actively looking for those genes and won't stop until he finds them.

See, he currently has 3 parts to his study. The first part he started taking blood originally from horses who had positive muscle biopsies and that was back in late 2015. Then, once he found a gene, he started accepting blood from anyone who had a horse that they wanted to get into the study. That first part of the study took in any breed of horse and he has more then 400+ horses in that first part. He then quit taking horses but he has taken in some exceptions.

Then, as he found more genes, he had quite an interest in specific horses which was TBs, Arabs and Icelandics. So then he started taking blood from specific breeds because he really hasn't unlocked the problem with Icelandics as there has only been a couple I think that have come back positive for P8. Also, on that portion of the study with TBs and Arabs, because those two are closely related, he is also trying to find the genes that are causing RER. They are pretty sure that RER is not a mono gene cause but is caused by several genes and even Dr Valberg has stated this fact as well. He has over 300+ horses in this portion of the study

Then the third part of his study is just draft horses. If I remember right, there is somewhere around 150 drafts in that portion.

Honestly right now, QH and QH related breeds are taking a back seat to other breeds and he is definitely not focusing on any particular bloodlines. To be honest, they really don't care about bloodlines. They just care about getting horses in to help them find these genes. When they first started searching for genes back in late 2015, I think all of us thought, they'll just finally find that one gene and we'll be golden. What none of us has realised is that the diagnosis of PSSM type 2 is a dumping ground for all biopsies that appeared to have a glycogen storage problem.

Heck, as I've done my own research on muscle myopathies in humans, I'm floored by how many human muscle myopathies are out there and many of these aren't mono genes, they are caused by multiple genes.

Just the other day I was messaging with one of the EquiSeq researchers about autism in humans. Like this person was telling me, autism isn't a mono gene problem. It's a problem caused by multiple genes and because its caused by multiple genes, that's why we don't see one family being severely affected by it because all the genes have to align for it to happen.

Let me tell you, I'm thrilled to have a company come on board that wants to do genetic research in horses and unlock these muscle myopathies when others couldn't get it done. In the long run, the benefit to the equine breed is going to be huge and in my opinion, knowing how many barrel bred horses do have these PSSM type 2 variant genes, it's going to bring the barrel and racing industry into the next level once we start working at getting it cleaned up.

To think that we won't have to spend a crap ton of money on injections and supplements and stuff like magnawave and PEMF, it's going to make owning these guys and keeping them running consistently into their teenage years, much more affordable.

If you think people don’t spend the money on injections, supplements, BOT, chiropractors and PEMF on horses with out having PSSM you are fooling yourself .

Boy, I sure WISH it had only been a day of my one mare "being a butt"!   She went from being a delight to ride as a 5 year old when I bought her to a total nightmare at age 6 - bucking, spooking, bolting, refusing to flex, pick up her leads anymore, off & on strange lamenesses, became horrible for the farrier to work on & lost tons of muscle mass.  Had her 5 Panel tested & was n/n on all.  Vets, chiro, etc were no help at all! Of course, I was told she was "just" being a butt, had my number; getting away with things, etc.  I seriously started questioning all my years of experience & had a good trainer ride her.  She got WORSE.  Brought her home & she was losing more muscle mass, started having muscle twitches.  It was very obvious she was in pain & there was nothing I could find to help her. I had talked to the vet about putting her down since I just couldn't stand to see her suffer.  Then I stumbled onto the PSSM Forum (who I find VERY helpful) and after reading, wondered if I'd found some answers.  I sent in hair - that was back when it took MONTHS to get results, but in the mean time, I started changing her diet to what was suggested while I waited on results.   (she had been on good quality grass hay, pasture, rolled barley).  She came back n/P2.  I have my horse back, she looks like a million bucks again, is happy & comfortable.  I am one of the LUCKY ones since not all respond to diet change, etc & they can all be so different in what they each require.  I am thankful for Equiseq's testing & so many of us being able to find out what is wrong with our horses & help them, vs dumping them like many do, passing them off on someone else, not giving a **** that they are in pain, etc.  

The only time I've seen someone get resistance on the PSSM Forum is when they go on there with their guns drawn, determined to "disprove" any & all.  That always raises a red flag for me ... why are they so determined to undermine this?  I've realized now why many do.  

Can someone give me the most recent feeding suggestions for P3?  I've tried a few different plans without consistant results.  The mare has been tested and confirmed n/P3 and n/n on all others.  The facebook page wore me out, I had to quit following, but try to catch up here once in awhile.

The PSSM forum has had some good information, but like a lot of specialty forums they think everything has PSSM. More importantly, it can only be PSSM and nothing else. I don’t know a lot of horses that have just one problem. Their list of symptoms  for PSSM includes setting back in cross ties, spooking and lameness, head shaking...really ? The whole list contains many more afflictions that could have 50 different causes. 

Referring to them only being reactive when someone comes at them , I have observed the opposite. The mere suggestion that a particular subject might be showing symptoms of some other problem gets smacked down quickly. 

For now, I’m not paying $300 for Equisec to test my horse. No matter what the test says, accurate or not, I’m the one that has to get him comfortable.

Basically, let's start with the basics. The P3 gene is associated with human myofibrillar myopathy. So, your horse is fighting a gene that is destroying the myofibrillars in the muscle cell. So, as far as a diet goes, you are going to look at something that's balanced on the calcium to phosphorus ratio and on foals a recommended balance is around 1.25 to 1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus. 

Then, you want to feed stuff thats low in NSC but is high in protein and has a good tri-amino acid profile.

Generally, I tell folks to go with a grass hay mixed with alfalfa and make sure that about 10 to 20% of it is alfalfa. Now, for some horses they can't handle alfalfa hay but many seem to do fine on alfalfa pellets and if your feeding 20 lbs of hay a day, make sure that about 2 to 4 lbs of it is either alfalfa hay or alfalfa pellets.

Then, your high protein feeds such as Triple Crown 30%, Progressive Nutrition grass formula or Buckeye Grow N Win are 30% protein, have a good tri-amino acid profile and are low in NSC. Another one is the Tribute Essential K which is a 20% protein and it has a good tri-amino acid profile.

Also, some folks have had good luck by feeding the Coolstance Copra as it adds 20% protein, but doesn't add calcium to the diet. They've also had good luck with doing the Progressive Topline Extreme or the Progressive Topline Advance Support.

Personally, I feel too many people think that by throwing everything at the horse, it will start to get better but they won't take the time to understand the gene or how its affecting their horse and then their horse's diet just becomes a total headshaker to me. I'd much rather keep things simple by understanding the gene and how to counteract its affects.

Now, on my N/P3 mare, she started having lameness in her left hind stifle and two different vets had two different opinions. Of course I didn't know about her N/P3 results until 2017 and she has been put down in 2016, but she suffered from multiple problems as she had a chipped coffin bone, calcification of the deep digital flexor tendon and degrading of the navicular bone in her front feet. That was all verified by xray. 

Now, one of the researchers, when we were comparing horses, as one of hers was N/P3, we both saw where both horses had a left hind leg lameness issue as they aged. For some reason, just based off of what I have seen, I feel that the P3 gene creates hind leg lameness and it seems that the majority of P3 horses become less rideable as they age.

I personally take a less is more approach to feeding and your more then welcome to message me. 

As far as that list of symptoms for PSSM, it was not a list that was created by folks on the PSSM Forum. Actually the list was published by the researchers at the University of MN on their fund raiser brochure when they were doing a fund raiser to fund research into finding the PSSM type 2 gene. So, that is the symptoms that the researchers at the University of MN have witnessed while observing PSSM horses.

I dont disagree that they can also be symptoms from normal horses as well, but the difference on these symptoms is when they disappear after the horse has undergone a diet change.

Now, on two PSSM N/P1 horses that I trained, I literally had both of them flip completely over backwards in the cross ties and they wouldn't flip until I walked away to do something else or to even grab a saddle to saddle them. The one mare, I was finally able to vet her to stand and not flip in the cross ties by attaching the cross tie hooks to the center loop of her halter. The other mare, as long as I just attached one cross tie line, she wouldn't flip. To date, I've never had any other horse completely go up and over backwards in my cross ties like those two mares did.

When I talked to a body worker, she explained that there is nerves that run down the side of their head, right where the halter lays and if they are tensed up, the halter, when it's in cross ties, puts pressure on those nerves and causes the horse to try to get away from that pain.

Generally most horses are well behaved, but when a well  behaved horse becomes resistant, then a person in tune with their horse is going to try to figure out what is happening. I dont disagree that there are inexperienced folks who have horses that start taking advantage of a person but a high majority of folks coming on the Forum are experienced people and they've exhausted all other measures to try to figure out what is wrong and can't find an answer. 

I have a mare that for 7 years I couldn't figure her out and I started in February of 2010 on my journey by having her CK and AST checked and it was normal as a trainer had some difficult horses in that ended up being PSSM and she told me to test. 3 vets and 4 chiropractors later and I had no answers yet, but I knew her dam and maternal half siblings all displayed the same behaviour. In April of 2017, I got her EquiSeq result for P4 and she was N/P4. Her sire was negative so that meant her dam had P4 as well. Then, last year I finally found the owner of her dam and he had a maternal half brother to Maddie and was experiencing the same problems I had experienced. I was able to get Maddie's dam and maternal half brother into the study and after messaging with the guy, he finally felt relieved to have answers and to know he wasn't alone and he was grateful to have some direction to go with Moon.

I guess we are reading different posts then.  I see people come on there with "issues" their horses are having & others asking what kinds of issues, what their vets have suggested/diagnosed, what treatments they've tried, etc & that "that" symptom could be ulcers, EPM, Lymes, etc.  If no answers or no relief, depending on breed and/or bloodlines, look into testing for PSSM1 or PSSM2 variants.  (it's currently $249, not $300 & I don't think anyone is twisting anyones arms to test.)  I personally know of a young woman that has several horses by a well known sire that has had all kinds of issues with her oldest horse.  She has been the whole route of different tests & treatments by several well respected vet clinics & nothing has changed.  She started testing as a last resort ... & of the 2 by that stud that have been tested so far, both are showing different variants positive.  She now has some answers and is feeding & changing things in their lives & already has seen an improvement in the one with problems.  It is a TOOL to help, as other diagnostics are.  As with my mare, I had run out of options - no one able to figure out what was causing the issues, no treatments helped, & she was on her way to being put down when I got answers and help & forever grateful for that.  The list of symptoms Appy Cowgirl posted are some of the more common ones (the highlighted is from a person who was checking off what their horse was experiencing.)  Just because a horse doesn't cooperate with a farrier doesn't mean it has PSSM.  Just because a horse doesn't cross tie, doesn't mean it has PSSM. MANY of the people that I know that have positive horses didn't jump to conclusions - they went the route of trying to find answers otherwise first.  And you have to know your horse - as I said above about my mare, she was a delight to ride ANYWHERE as a 5 year old - rodeo from mountainous trails (even seeing moose, etc for her first time), loped easily, flexed - just a nice horse.  And then the next year, she is spooking & bolting at nothing & everything, bunny hopping at & unable to hold a proper canter, unable to hold her feet up for the farrier, etc - LOTS of issues that were not there the previous year.  Believe me, I started wondering if there was now a drug that lasted 6 mos to a year that someone had drugged her prior to me buying her. If a horse has several common symptoms that tick off that list, then I'd investigate that direction or it has changed behavior, etc.   Due to what I've been through with this mess, we (along with MANY others) will not buy ANY horse without clean testing, 5 panel & PSSM2 variants.  And they ARE out there - we bought 2 w/in a year that are n/n for all & enjoying them very much.

I knew I wasn’t the only one. Many I knew left for this reason, while all forums and such have some useful information. You get shot at the stake when you even try to ask have you checked ———-.  I don’t believe every symptom is directly related to PSSM. Horses develope or had the problem all along, they ALL have SOMETHING...And I won’t pay it either.  I am glad your found answers rockyroad. And glad you have your horse back. 

Now, tell me you have never had a horse that was negative for everything not show signs of any of these or multiple issues of these. I can tell you I have had perfectly healthy horses that did 2 or more of these that were fed sweet feed and had no other signs but randomly did a few of these things.

Easy Rider what is the point of all this arguing?  Some people have gotten relief from their anxiety about their horses when they find out they have XXX or yyy.  They change the feed and the horse gets relief.  If you don't believe in it, fine.  Don't test. Go on your merry way.  Be happy. It's your choice. But don't tell others not to consider it when they haven't found answers after thousands in vet bills. P2 is something that has a test that is cheaper than most vet procedures. Maybe people should eliminate P2 before they go down every rabbit hole the vet wants to try. It could be part of every PP exam. 

Sweet feed has nothing to do with P2.  P1 is what you're thinking of.  Every horse should be tested for P1 or their parents should before they are bred.  

I do believe it is a thing. But it's like the old hospital records where you look up cause of death and everyone had consumption. I still wonder if my beloved Audie has one of the types. He is NN on his 5 panel. He has had odd lameness/soreness. I have always fed what would be a PSSM diet though and we are on the right track. Cost prohibits me from testing him. He has been naughty before and getting after him just made him a bigger arse. But he was also very green broke. So who knows. I am not saying it isn't a thing, I think it is. But I also think a big percentage of those people on the PSSM facebook page have gone overboard. A witch hunt like I mentioned before. The only thing that will fix any of this is if they EVER have peer reviewed studies of the test. 

They are working towards getting it peer reviewed but there is some road blocks and one I was just made aware of the other day, I was like humm. Seems that one lab, and it's not Animal Genetics, was sued by the Univeristy of MN for running the PSSM 1 testing after it was patented by the University of MN because they hadn't gotten licensed. So, this lab likes to pirate things and not pay for it and the cost to take them to court is high. They had been running the PSSM 1 testing prior to being patented and at that time, because the University of MN didnt have a patent, anyone could do the testing and not pay patent royalties. It took 10 years for the University of MN get a patent on the PSSM type 1 testing. 

Also, I'm sure that when EquiSeq first started doing this gene research off of the horses with positive muscle biopsies, they didnt realise how extensive this was going to be. It would be easy enough to publish on what they have, but with them discovering more genes, the paper wouldn't be complete because there is more to come. Heck, even with P2, P3, P4, P5, P6, P8 and K1, they still have horses with positive muscle biopsies that are negative for all of these genes. It's truly amazing at how much of a dumping ground the diagnosis of PSSM type 2 through a muscle biopsy was. It's also very scary how many genes are out there that are creating muscle myopathy diseases and some are monogenic and some are polygenic.

Okay Easy Rider, you mention that you've had perfectly healthy horses who have done this, but are yours in the study and have they been tested for P2, P3, P4, P5, P6, P8 and K1? 

See, what's been truly interesting for me on this journey of having my horses in the study, is that the ones that I've had problems with, and some have had some of those issues on this paper, have come back positive for one of the genes. I'll tell you, it's been a huge eye opener for me. 

Like my N/P4 mare, I searched for 7 years to try to figure out why, when I rode her, it was like Dr Jackel and Mr Hyde. Even when you brought the saddle up to her, the ears would flat pin back and she has tried to bite my daughter or I, a time or two and was clocked for it. Under saddle, you just never knew what you were going to get and even my husband has said the same thing. 

Just like with my ex junior stallion that was N/P2, I saw things that gave me cause for pause as I bought him as a yearling and 3 years later, I had answers. 

I've been truly amazed at how those horses that had issues and I'm not talking about the horse that pulls a muscle or strains a ligament or tendon or is out of alignment, have come back positive. When my gut has been screaming at me, there has been a reason why.

My senior stallion is 22 this year and so far he has been clean for everything and he is sound and fat and happy. Last year, we took him, in pasture shape, not legged up at all, and moved his cousin's herd of cattle to their summer pasture in the Sandhills and we had no problems. To me, this is an true testament and makes me realise there is something to this testing.

That's why when I've been looking at breeding to some studs that arent tested, I look to see if they are still competing and are they still clocking what they were in their 3 and 4 year old years and are they still sound. Also, are they easy or hard keepers? So far, on some of these older studs, they've tested out clean on P2, P3 and P4 and those old studs are sound.