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 "Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
  
Location: Iowa, LA | GonnaBe - 2013-09-20 3:10 PM I'm finding this topic VERY interesting!! On the list of 29 symptoms, I highlighted about 13 of them on my mare!! A lot of you had talked about a mystery lameness, can you please describe in a little more detail what your horse was doing? My mare has not tied up, but shows alot of the symptoms, and not after riding, like we would always relate this stuff too. ??? I am going to send off a hair analysis for starters.
For my mare the vets kept thinking it was her stifles or hocks bothering her. We tried injecting everything we could inject back there with no improvement. We also did stifle blistering AND surgery with no help. Taking her off of grass was what finally helped her. | |
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 Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
 
Location: Opelousas, LA | Does anyone have any tips to help a PSSM horse deal with stall rest?
She is being fed grass hay and alfalfa pellets with oil, still on her Vit. E and Mag. After one week with no excercise her muscles are rock hard especially over her butt and back. Is there anything I can change diet wise to help her, or is this just something we will have to work through when I am allowed to start handwalking her?
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 Veteran
Posts: 151
| I need some advice too. I have a gelding that is a PSSM poster child. I have taken him to two vets that basically roll their eyes and change the subject - ugh!
The problem is, he has a bladder issue and is only allowed grass hay and oats. After watching him decline, I started him on WellSolve - a low starch complete feed.
Any suggestions on how to help with the PSSM knowing he can't have alfalfa? | |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Skeetersmom - 2013-09-29 10:09 PM
I need some advice too. I have a gelding that is a PSSM poster child. I have taken him to two vets that basically roll their eyes and change the subject - ugh!
The problem is, he has a bladder issue and is only allowed grass hay and oats. After watching him decline, I started him on WellSolve - a low starch complete feed.
Any suggestions on how to help with the PSSM knowing he can't have alfalfa?
Timothy pellets or cubes are a great alternative to alfalfa. You can add oil for added calories if needed.
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Barnmom - 2013-09-29 9:36 AM
Does anyone have any tips to help a PSSM horse deal with stall rest?
She is being fed grass hay and alfalfa pellets with oil, still on her Vit. E and Mag. After one week with no excercise her muscles are rock hard especially over her butt and back. Is there anything I can change diet wise to help her, or is this just something we will have to work through when I am allowed to start handwalking her?
I'm not sure there is a whole lot you can do. Possibly Dantrolene? It is a muscle relaxant. | |
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Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
Location: Opelousas, LA | Thats what I thought, i guess we will just have to work thru it when I can get her moving again.
I have not done the muscle biopsy yet, but this just confirms it for me. Horses should get flabby just standing around, not harder than even a fit horse should be. | |
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 Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas |
Bumping up | |
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 Arriving at the last minute!
Posts: 5148
Location: Kansas | BARRELHORSE USA - 2013-07-14 4:40 AM Has it ever occurred to you that PSSM is another vet // drug company fad to make a lot of money on a long term basis. If you look at so many of these fad diseases that are diagnosed ... they have all shown up after Genetically Engineered grains like the ethanol corn wastes were added to feed and beet pulp which is also trash left over from sugar beet processing. Look at your feed tags and find one named grain you find there ... don't you thing all this trash you never heard of or can't pronounce might be the root cause and shutting down enzymes or gut bacteria in your horses. All of these extruded grains with no names have heavy metal and weird chemicals applied to them in order to get the main product out of them. When various heavy metals, over dosed supplements of vitamins and minerals and other crap build up in a horses system he starts falling apart muscle wise and nerve command center shuts down. Keep in mind a horses skeleton is only held together and supported by muscles and a few ligaments ... It is like the money making ruse that AQHA is doing trying to scare everyone into getting the 5 panel tests done at a good profit for them and their favorite labs. Try to find the actual ingredients in any sack of Purina or the other over priced feeds ... no can do ... it is amazing what kind of trash feeds we buy and the number of vaccines we shoot our horses with year after year .... don't you think after a while all this crap is going to accumulate in a horses organs and start shutting him and down and the best thing a vet can come up with is plain grass hay along with some deep muscle//organ antibiotics .... which tells you a whole lot right there .. It is the same thing with fast food or food served in restaurants ... you have no idea if the hamburger is real or pink slime or actual country of origin ... how much mercury or other contaminants in fish/seafood or what. Look at your neighbors kids ... since yours are perfect ... and ask yourself ... Dang, what happened to them... lol Just a dumb theory of mine ... but I think doing sonograms on human unborn babies is one of the most unhealthy things you can do ... the low radio shock waves can screw up a kids brain and DNA just so they can make more money running worthless tests and charging it to insurance companies which ups the premium costs. If you disagree ... go back to early 1980's until now and see how frequently and how much fun it is to check on baby with pictures and what sex it is and the increase in all the ADDHYXZ'z when diagnosed old kid is given more drugs and the rise in autism is huge ... along with the crap that is in kid vaccines ... It is funny that those of us that were raised on chickens with dirty feathers, crippled calves that would not bring a good price at sale barn, bacon grease in everything, more gravy, heavily buttered anything, hogs that were too fat, raw milk and beans and taters with only home baked pies, cakes and cookies that would grow mold on them if not eaten in a few days instead of being labeled .. Best eaten before 12.31.2014 .... and of course we had to work and play outside all day long ... IMO horses and kids are fed too much crap, not worked enough and given too many drugs, supplements and unknown trash foods .... and who did it to them .... WE DID!!
I am learning alot by reading this thread and I am kind of dumb founded. As someone that has always fed either oats or a COB mix for 40 years with only two horses ever having a problem eating and the owners told me they had an issue I can't believe I am this lucky to not have all these problems. Pelleted feeds, Ultimum, and Strategy etc all have grain in them and its all processed. With many pelleted feeds you risk digestive problems, colic from dehydration, choking, the quality of grains in a pelleted form, the by products in it etc. So I wonder if the key is moderation. I feed very little grain to get results. Add some rice bran in a powdered form, flax seed, sea salt for an electrolyte that is all natural, and some amino acids like lysine or DMG, and I add a source of nutrients called Forco. I train daily and some turn out and some days they get off and I don't have all these issues. I know a lot of race horse stables feed tons of grain, I know cutting places on oats and corn diets. Just putting this out there not to dispute all that is said everyone knows their own horses needs but I just have to show the successful side of feeding a grain diet. I feed a little alfalfa but mostly grass hay. And I have different bloodlines every year so many varying bloodlines. But I do want to say I am always open to learning and trying to do better for my horses but I just can't figure out why its such a problem and I don't seem to be having that problem here that I can tell. I just am more scared to try these other feeds when you can' never tell what is really in it and is it really better for the horse??
Edited by amy laymon 2013-11-06 8:48 AM
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 Cotton Balls are the Devil
Posts: 1271
Location: My own little world! | amy laymon - 2013-11-07 6:38 AM
BARRELHORSE USA - 2013-07-14 4:40 AM Has it ever occurred to you that PSSM is another vet // drug company fad to make a lot of money on a long term basis. If you look at so many of these fad diseases that are diagnosed ... they have all shown up after Genetically Engineered grains like the ethanol corn wastes were added to feed and beet pulp which is also trash left over from sugar beet processing. Look at your feed tags and find one named grain you find there ... don't you thing all this trash you never heard of or can't pronounce might be the root cause and shutting down enzymes or gut bacteria in your horses. All of these extruded grains with no names have heavy metal and weird chemicals applied to them in order to get the main product out of them. When various heavy metals, over dosed supplements of vitamins and minerals and other crap build up in a horses system he starts falling apart muscle wise and nerve command center shuts down. Keep in mind a horses skeleton is only held together and supported by muscles and a few ligaments ... It is like the money making ruse that AQHA is doing trying to scare everyone into getting the 5 panel tests done at a good profit for them and their favorite labs. Try to find the actual ingredients in any sack of Purina or the other over priced feeds ... no can do ... it is amazing what kind of trash feeds we buy and the number of vaccines we shoot our horses with year after year .... don't you think after a while all this crap is going to accumulate in a horses organs and start shutting him and down and the best thing a vet can come up with is plain grass hay along with some deep muscle//organ antibiotics .... which tells you a whole lot right there .. It is the same thing with fast food or food served in restaurants ... you have no idea if the hamburger is real or pink slime or actual country of origin ... how much mercury or other contaminants in fish/seafood or what. Look at your neighbors kids ... since yours are perfect ... and ask yourself ... Dang, what happened to them... lol Just a dumb theory of mine ... but I think doing sonograms on human unborn babies is one of the most unhealthy things you can do ... the low radio shock waves can screw up a kids brain and DNA just so they can make more money running worthless tests and charging it to insurance companies which ups the premium costs. If you disagree ... go back to early 1980's until now and see how frequently and how much fun it is to check on baby with pictures and what sex it is and the increase in all the ADDHYXZ'z when diagnosed old kid is given more drugs and the rise in autism is huge ... along with the crap that is in kid vaccines ... It is funny that those of us that were raised on chickens with dirty feathers, crippled calves that would not bring a good price at sale barn, bacon grease in everything, more gravy, heavily buttered anything, hogs that were too fat, raw milk and beans and taters with only home baked pies, cakes and cookies that would grow mold on them if not eaten in a few days instead of being labeled .. Best eaten before 12.31.2014 .... and of course we had to work and play outside all day long ... IMO horses and kids are fed too much crap, not worked enough and given too many drugs, supplements and unknown trash foods .... and who did it to them .... WE DID!!
I am learning alot by reading this thread and I am kind of dumb founded. As someone that has always fed either oats or a COB mix for 40 years with only two horses ever having a problem eating and the owners told me they had an issue I can't believe I am this lucky to not have all these problems. Pelleted feeds, Ultimum, and Strategy etc all have grain in them and its all processed. With many pelleted feeds you risk digestive problems, colic from dehydration, choking, the quality of grains in a pelleted form, the by products in it etc. So I wonder if the key is moderation. I feed very little grain to get results. Add some rice bran in a powdered form, flax seed, sea salt for an electrolyte that is all natural, and some amino acids like lysine or DMG, and I add a source of nutrients called Forco. I train daily and some turn out and some days they get off and I don't have all these issues. I know a lot of race horse stables feed tons of grain, I know cutting places on oats and corn diets. Just putting this out there not to dispute all that is said everyone knows their own horses needs but I just have to show the successful side of feeding a grain diet. I feed a little alfalfa but mostly grass hay. And I have different bloodlines every year so many varying bloodlines. But I do want to say I am always open to learning and trying to do better for my horses but I just can't figure out why its such a problem and I don't seem to be having that problem here that I can tell. I just am more scared to try these other feeds when you can' never tell what is really in it and is it really better for the horse??
I can see the point of the above posters and I have wondered about the processed feeds for horses as well. Just things I think of from time to time. I also wanted to point out that with all the supplements out there that I think some people are feeding several supplements at one time and that my be over supplementing for one thing. Or who knows what they are actually accomplishing with all the "miricle" supplements out there.
However, at the time my mare was tested she was on turn out pasture grass. Grass hay in the winter. She only got grain when being riden which at the time was whole oats. Minerals, salt block. | |
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Arriving at the last minute!
Posts: 5148
Location: Kansas | Below is the ingredients for Ultium. My point is what they say is that its way better than grain. So what is ground corn? What is wheat millings are those good? On and soybeans? No brainer that I know is not good. And ground oat hulls? Cane molasses I know is not a good thing. Is that all great for a horse? I think I will take my chances looking at my clean whole oats with a few other additives that I know the quality of. This is just one feed and probably one of the best on the market I hear?! And soybean oil and vegetable oil I wouldn't give that to one I wanted to kill. Wheat Middlings, Ground Soybean Hulls, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Cane Molasses, Dried Beet Pulp, Stabilized Rice Bran, Soybean Oil, Vegetable Oil, Ground Oat Hulls, Ground Corn, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Flaxseed, Calcium Carbonate, Lignin Sulfonate, Salt, DL-Methionine, L-Lysine, Citric Acid, Dried Whey Solubles, Choline Chloride, Iron Oxide, Vitamin E Supplement, Propionic Acid (A Preservative), Thiamine Mononitrate, Sorbitan Monostearate, Anise Flavor, Fenugreek Flavor, Calcium Pantothenate, Tocopherols, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, L Tryptophan, L Threonine, Calcium Iodate, Magnesium Oxide, Cobalt Carbonate, Ferrous Carbonate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite. Ruminant Meat- And Bone Meal-Free
Edited by amy laymon 2013-11-06 10:45 AM
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Arriving at the last minute!
Posts: 5148
Location: Kansas | I looked up distillers dried grains and that is one of the ingredients in the Triple Crown low starch feed. So you do a good thing and may be worse off??? It says the calcium /phosphorus ration is wrong in that and can cause bone problems especially in young growing horses. I could look up all these ingredients jammed into a low starch pellet and find more that is detrimental than good. That is why you have to be careful and really research!
http://www1.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/horse/nutrition/distillers-dried-grains-with-solubles/ | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 224
Location: La Belle, Mo | Ok so my question on all this is does it really help to have the PSSM1 test done? I mean some of these horses are coming up neg on the 1 but positive on the TWO BUT isnt the 2 worse then the 1. And MOST of the people you see having test done on stallions are ONLY doing the one so isnt that kind of like false advertisement? I mean you cant really say the horse is N/N UNLESS you do the test for 2 also! | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| I would have agreed to the point on what we feed. Oats and corn are for horses........until I got the mare I have NOw, I fought with her ovaries for years, but once I got her spayed ALL of her did not disappear. She still had vague lamenesses that we could not get a handle on. She finally went lame in the front, I made a vet appointment for the next day and by the time I got her in the next day, I thought she had stringhalt.
Vet told me that she was tying up (although blood work did not have elevated liver enzymes). He suggested PSSM and putting her on a low starch diet. Once I got over being devastated I switched her to low starch with additional oil and within a couple of weeks saw a significant change in her.
AS far as the pelleted feeds, most low starch feeds are based on wheat middens, alfalfa or some kind of rice product. These do not have a high NSF starch content. Not sure but this could also be the case with distillers grain.... the NSF could be processed out. I went for years feeding oats and corn but part of m wonders if some of the horses I had in the past could have benefited from a low starch diet. Just one instance cold backed or cinchy horses. Maybe they had a mild form of this disease like my mare.
As far as my question on Cinnamon earlier in this thread. From personal observation I would NOT feed it. My mare stayed reactive to brushing her over the back and that disappeared when I quit supplementing her with the Cinnamon. | |
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The Expert Expert
Posts: 3455
Location: Western performance horse Hades | COB is great if your feeding endurance horses or horses that work for 8 hours a day and can burn through all that startch like the horses in the 1800s.
Edited by zipper 2013-11-06 12:25 PM
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 The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | So, PSSM can be passed to offspring? | |
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| Yes, PSSM IS a genetic disease. This may help educate people on the multitude of genetic disorders/diseases just within the American Quarter Horse:
http://services2.aqha.com/iphonedev/www/sections/sectionII/rules/20... | |
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| Here is what I was told to do w/my RER horse that I suspected was PSSM positive but biopsy said he was not.
Attachments
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 Un or MN 8:13 RER managment (4).doc (45KB - 387 downloads)
Un or MN 8-13 RER managment (4).doc (45KB - 450 downloads)
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| Annemarea- I am so sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I just haven't been on BHW for a while and simply missed your post asking me to relay what I was told about RER. I posted it on the response right before this one. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1889
Location: Texas | horsecrazy45 - 2013-11-06 9:54 AM
Ok so my question on all this is does it really help to have the PSSM1 test done? I mean some of these horses are coming up neg on the 1 but positive on the TWO BUT isnt the 2 worse then the 1. And MOST of the people you see having test done on stallions are ONLY doing the one so isnt that kind of like false advertisement? I mean you cant really say the horse is N/N UNLESS you do the test for 2 also!
I believe that it does help to have the PSSM1 test done as there are a lot of horses that do have this. At this time there is not a DNA test for PSSM type 2 so although suspected, this has not been proven one way or the other that it is a genetic disease. | |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | horsecrazy45 - 2013-11-06 10:54 AM Ok so my question on all this is does it really help to have the PSSM1 test done? I mean some of these horses are coming up neg on the 1 but positive on the TWO BUT isnt the 2 worse then the 1. And MOST of the people you see having test done on stallions are ONLY doing the one so isnt that kind of like false advertisement? I mean you cant really say the horse is N/N UNLESS you do the test for 2 also!
Yes! It is absolutely important to test for Type 1. I read all of the time how PSSM Type 2 is supposedly more severe than Type 1, yet, both of mine are easily managed with no tie-ups and both have Type 2. I've read some Type 1 horses are so severe they are having to be put down....so the moral of the story- EVERY CASE IS DIFFERENT. It is not a false advertisement to say a horse is negative for Type 1, but hopefully the word is getting out about Type 2 and will have more people questioning for that one, as well. The reason that most are only testing for Type 1 is because it is a simple DNA hair test and it is cheap. Type 2 requires a muscle biopsy, so it is several hundred dollars and more invasive. | |
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