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 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
  
| rodeoveteran - 2013-11-26 11:25 AM I have refrained for commenting on this tread 'til now. And admit to not reading the entire thing as it is rehashing old arguments. When they start calling them barrel exhibitions instead of races, when they are judged on style and form, THEN a lower D horse will have equal value to a top competitor on the open market and deserve equal reward. Oh, but wait, then it will come down to a judge's opinion and politics to determine value and reward, both of which I am happy to get away from. Otherwise I would be in to showing instead of racing. But then, this is JMHO. Peace. Out. Would reward based on judge's opinion be that much different than reward based on luck of placement from time off in the D system? Isn't that like winning a lottery?
Edited by TXBO 2013-11-26 12:01 PM
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
  
| TXBO - 2013-11-26 11:58 AM
rodeoveteran - 2013-11-26 11:25 AM I have refrained for commenting on this tread 'til now. And admit to not reading the entire thing as it is rehashing old arguments. When they start calling them barrel exhibitions instead of races, when they are judged on style and form, THEN a lower D horse will have equal value to a top competitor on the open market and deserve equal reward. Oh, but wait, then it will come down to a judge's opinion and politics to determine value and reward, both of which I am happy to get away from. Otherwise I would be in to showing instead of racing. But then, this is JMHO. Peace. Out. Would reward based on judge's opinion be that much different than reward based on luck of placement from time off in the D system? Isn't that like winning a lottery?
I agree with you.  | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | rodeoveteran - 2013-11-26 2:47 PM TXBO - 2013-11-26 11:58 AM rodeoveteran - 2013-11-26 11:25 AM I have refrained for commenting on this tread 'til now. And admit to not reading the entire thing as it is rehashing old arguments. When they start calling them barrel exhibitions instead of races, when they are judged on style and form, THEN a lower D horse will have equal value to a top competitor on the open market and deserve equal reward. Oh, but wait, then it will come down to a judge's opinion and politics to determine value and reward, both of which I am happy to get away from. Otherwise I would be in to showing instead of racing. But then, this is JMHO. Peace. Out. Would reward based on judge's opinion be that much different than reward based on luck of placement from time off in the D system? Isn't that like winning a lottery? I agree with you.
Depends on the judge....some open show judges are pretty much a carpshoot in my area... sorta like the lottery lol | |
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  Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) |  Well, I'm going home now. I'll see y'all tomorrow :) | |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | Ditto on going home. | |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9991
Location: Kansas |  | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1432
Location: Never in one place long | Just like communism.... it gives you NOTHING to work up to if you can make the SAME amount running slower..... | |
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 Queen Bee Cat Owner
Posts: 3629
Location: Way up North | DLV - 2013-11-26 4:02 PM Just like communism.... it gives you NOTHING to work up to if you can make the SAME amount running slower.....
This arguement irks me to no end. I have yet to meet anyone that barrel races that would say they don't want to get faster because the 4D just pays too good. Barrel racers are competitive by nature otherwise why the hell we would we put in the blood, sweat, and tears and pay the thousands upon thousands to play the game? | |
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Expert
Posts: 1956
Location: Ky | AllAroundRider - 2013-11-26 7:02 PM DLV - 2013-11-26 4:02 PM Just like communism.... it gives you NOTHING to work up to if you can make the SAME amount running slower..... This arguement irks me to no end. I have yet to meet anyone that barrel races that would say they don't want to get faster because the 4D just pays too good. Barrel racers are competitive by nature otherwise why the hell we would we put in the blood, sweat, and tears and pay the thousands upon thousands to play the game?
I've seen many, many barrel racers that do not wish to move up and sit around hoping for someone to beat them by a full second or 2 seconds. They are not trying to win the race. They are trying to hit a time slot.
Equal pay just rewards mediocrity more then the D system already does. | |
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | runs4fun - 2013-11-25 4:04 PM graciemay - 2013-11-25 4:01 PM DD2012 - 2013-11-25 1:54 PM graciemay - 2013-11-25 2:50 PM DD2012 - 2013-11-25 1:25 PM I think equal payout is awesome Why should someone get paid more than me, just because they out ran me by a second and a half? The horse that ran a second and half faster than you won the race. Their time enabled you to fall into a D and get a check. They won a D I won a D We both paid entry and we both hauled in and made a run. No way that they should be paid more, just for running faster.
Are you going to spend that money on a 1D horse or a 4D horse?
well heck if payout is equal just save the 44,000 and buy the cheaper one.. after all.. you still can get paid as much as if you bought the 1D correct? | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Bibliafarm - 2013-11-26 7:20 PM runs4fun - 2013-11-25 4:04 PM graciemay - 2013-11-25 4:01 PM DD2012 - 2013-11-25 1:54 PM graciemay - 2013-11-25 2:50 PM DD2012 - 2013-11-25 1:25 PM I think equal payout is awesome Why should someone get paid more than me, just because they out ran me by a second and a half? The horse that ran a second and half faster than you won the race. Their time enabled you to fall into a D and get a check. They won a D I won a D We both paid entry and we both hauled in and made a run. No way that they should be paid more, just for running faster.
Are you going to spend that money on a 1D horse or a 4D horse?
I always compare equal payout to giving grades in school or what people are paid at work. Kids study the same and put in the same work so should they get the same grade? People work the same 10 hour day so should they get paid the same salary regardless of how productive they are at work??? I don't have a problem with paying more to those who excell. It happens in all walks of life. It is where you end up, not how you got there. | |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | AllAroundRider - 2013-11-26 7:02 PM
DLV - 2013-11-26 4:02 PM Just like communism.... it gives you NOTHING to work up to if you can make the SAME amount running slower.....
This arguement irks me to no end. I have yet to meet anyone that barrel races that would say they don't want to get faster because the 4D just pays too good. Barrel racers are competitive by nature otherwise why the hell we would we put in the blood, sweat, and tears and pay the thousands upon thousands to play the game?
Well, you haven't gone enough. I know several who are perfectly content going the speed they are, and have told me more than once that they don't want a faster horse, and that they make more money in the 4D than others do in the faster D....which is true. Let me tell you a true story. I used to be 1D rider fifteen years ago. I was one of those that when I showed up, people expected me to set the pace. I didn't always do it, but the large majority of the time, my horse was in the top of the 1D or won the whole thing. Then that horse got hurt and I went back to riding colts. Got one more like that 7 years later and once again, was expected to do well if I showed up. Sold that horse for a ton of money. Now, at 61 years of age, I have to work VERY hard on my confidence and my body to even be able to ride a 3D horse. The horse I ride is capable of 1D, and the rare days I ride him well, he runs there. More often than not, I run 3D/4D. I have NEVER complained about how much I won in the 3D/4d. I was just grateful I got a check for running slow. Fast forward to last week. Have been working really hard on letting my horse run and work a little more toward his potential and was 2nd in the 2D in a very tough crowd. Due to the cold, there was only 18 in the jackpot...that didn't lessen the level of toughness because the top people were still there. Mark Bugni won it (google his name if you don't know what he's been winning in the last few years) and won $34. Jyme Beth Cochrane (former 3 time IPRA champ, last year's CRRA finals average winner, etc.) was 2nd and won $29. The entry fee was $30. I got 2nd in the 2D and was SO excited because I finally thought I would get a little more money by being in the lower D's, and was so excited to run a half second off Mark and Jyme Beth....well I got $29 also. Found out it was equal pay (which I should have checked before I ran, but those races had always been sliding scale, but this was a new group putting them on, so they decided to change), so that's why none of us got very much. Think Mark will be back to run that good horse and set the D's the next time? I know I won't be back again to lose a dollar with a good run....what will happen if they continue with equal pay is that the races will get slower and slower because the good horses will go where they can win more money, and the slow ones will go to the equal pay races. So fast forward again....you buy a horse that runs 1D at the equal pay races thinking you have a 1D horse and then go to a big NBHA show....you'll be lucky to even be in the D's....so how happy do you think you will be with your purchase? Equal payouts may make the people that place in the higher D's happy, but pretty soon that's all that will be running there, and IMO, the numbers WILL suffer...it will just take awhile.
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Fire Ant Peddler
Posts: 2881
| dianeguinn - 2013-11-26 7:52 PM
AllAroundRider - 2013-11-26 7:02 PM
DLV - 2013-11-26 4:02 PM Just like communism.... it gives you NOTHING to work up to if you can make the SAME amount running slower.....
This arguement irks me to no end. I have yet to meet anyone that barrel races that would say they don't want to get faster because the 4D just pays too good. Barrel racers are competitive by nature otherwise why the hell we would we put in the blood, sweat, and tears and pay the thousands upon thousands to play the game?
Well, you haven't gone enough. I know several who are perfectly content going the speed they are, and have told me more than once that they don't want a faster horse, and that they make more money in the 4D than others do in the faster D....which is true. Let me tell you a true story. I used to be 1D rider fifteen years ago. I was one of those that when I showed up, people expected me to set the pace. I didn't always do it, but the large majority of the time, my horse was in the top of the 1D or won the whole thing. Then that horse got hurt and I went back to riding colts. Got one more like that 7 years later and once again, was expected to do well if I showed up. Sold that horse for a ton of money. Now, at 61 years of age, I have to work VERY hard on my confidence and my body to even be able to ride a 3D horse. The horse I ride is capable of 1D, and the rare days I ride him well, he runs there. More often than not, I run 3D/4D. I have NEVER complained about how much I won in the 3D/4d. I was just grateful I got a check for running slow. Fast forward to last week. Have been working really hard on letting my horse run and work a little more toward his potential and was 2nd in the 2D in a very tough crowd. Due to the cold, there was only 18 in the jackpot...that didn't lessen the level of toughness because the top people were still there. Mark Bugni won it (google his name if you don't know what he's been winning in the last few years ) and won $34. Jyme Beth Cochrane (former 3 time IPRA champ, last year's CRRA finals average winner, etc. ) was 2nd and won $29. The entry fee was $30. I got 2nd in the 2D and was SO excited because I finally thought I would get a little more money by being in the lower D's, and was so excited to run a half second off Mark and Jyme Beth....well I got $29 also. Found out it was equal pay (which I should have checked before I ran, but those races had always been sliding scale, but this was a new group putting them on, so they decided to change ), so that's why none of us got very much. Think Mark will be back to run that good horse and set the D's the next time? I know I won't be back again to lose a dollar with a good run....what will happen if they continue with equal pay is that the races will get slower and slower because the good horses will go where they can win more money, and the slow ones will go to the equal pay races. So fast forward again....you buy a horse that runs 1D at the equal pay races thinking you have a 1D horse and then go to a big NBHA show....you'll be lucky to even be in the D's....so how happy do you think you will be with your purchase? Equal payouts may make the people that place in the higher D's happy, but pretty soon that's all that will be running there, and IMO, the numbers WILL suffer...it will just take awhile.
I am like you. Used to win all the time before the 4D format. That was then and this is now. I just do not ride as well. We have some races around her that are equal pay and some that are not. We rarely have fewer that 100 entries no matter what (even the "small" monthly barrel races). The competition is tough no matter what the payout is. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I look at barrel racing as an adrenaline rush, first and foremost. I love to be competitive, and I want to win, but I've learned to accept that I usually won't. I also have learned to compete with myself, and to constantly try and figure out how I can make the next run better. I think we all do these things. Apart from placing in the 1D, the rest is basically the luck of the draw. If I am lucky enough to "win" say the 2D, 3D, or 4D I look at it as a nice surprise and think of it as a little reward for my efforts. If I normally run in the 3D on a given horse and we make a run that is much better than usual and we end up winning the 2D, then I am ecstatic. It's my decision whether or not I consider winning in a lower "D" a real win or not...just depends. When I got my most experienced/seasoned barrel horse as an 11 year old, he was at the top of HIS game, often times making me look like I was at the top of mine, when in reality I wasn't. I was naive enough to think I should be at the top of the 1D all the time on that horse.....and it didn't take long for me to learn reality. I remember feeling disappointed after "winning" the 2D at larger jackpots, with Mark Bugni winning the 1D. That's how a novice with an inflated ego thinks. I felt like I lost, even if I won $800. Anyway, it's all good and I think the "D" system, even with it's flaws, is a very good thing for the sport we all love. Let's be real. We practically all lose money barrel racing over the long run. I am learning to remind myself that one of the benefits of barrel racing is meeting so many fantastic people and developing friendships that sometimes last a lifetime. Like minded, decent, people all seeking out that one dream run that keeps us coming back for more. We learn to pull for one another and we learn to be genuinely be happy for people we know and cherish. When we reach that level of maturity, we are all winners.
Edited by HotbearLVR 2013-11-26 8:16 PM
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Location: Exactly where I am supposed to be | YIKES This is getting ugly LOL   | |
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Expert
Posts: 1488
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Where?
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Location: Exactly where I am supposed to be | DD2012 - 2013-11-26 8:16 PM
Where?
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | TXBO - 2013-11-26 11:58 AM rodeoveteran - 2013-11-26 11:25 AM I have refrained for commenting on this tread 'til now. And admit to not reading the entire thing as it is rehashing old arguments. When they start calling them barrel exhibitions instead of races, when they are judged on style and form, THEN a lower D horse will have equal value to a top competitor on the open market and deserve equal reward. Oh, but wait, then it will come down to a judge's opinion and politics to determine value and reward, both of which I am happy to get away from. Otherwise I would be in to showing instead of racing. But then, this is JMHO. Peace. Out. Would reward based on judge's opinion be that much different than reward based on luck of placement from time off in the D system? Isn't that like winning a lottery?
Yes, TXBO, it is a little like "winning" the lottery. For most of us, running at a jackpot is a lot like gambling at a casino. You stand a better chance at winning a Blackjack hand if you have some basic skill.....but lady luck plays a huge role. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1488
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I wasn't joking.
Where is it getting ugly
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 IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| Figured I would add more to the awesomeness of this thread:
I personally am in it to win it. Sure, I love the adrenaline rush-but I am striving and working towards the day where I am the one that sets the pace.
I don't think people really realize the amount of work it truly takes to be at the top.
Yes-one component of it is having the horse with the ability, but that is only one component.
GOOD training is a huge factor. GOOD training takes tons of hours in the saddle, tons of time to do things the right way, and not going for quick fixes.
And then there is also working on rider ability. Think of how many hours an olympic athlete puts into practice? It is the same in the barrel horse industry.
To succeed you must do your homework. It is my humble opinion that luck may play a "small" role, but doing your homework and putting the time in playes a much larger role.
Those that win didn't do it out of sheer luck-they win because they have taken the time to do their homework and figure out what training methods work best to make a winning combination.
I personally know several people who make their living and make money off of their barrel horses.
I do not mean this to sound snarky in any way, but it is also my humble opinion that most horses could easily run in the 4th division.
Therefore----I am not a fan of even payout. I greatly appreciate divisions though....because as of now that is where I am at...LOL
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