|
|
 Over Informed
Posts: 5372
  
Location: West Tennessee | ThreeCorners - 2013-12-16 10:21 AM
The number of people who take their kids to the NFR is miniscule compared to those that dont. There is something to be said for Vegas offering an adult recess!Alot of people DONT want to take their kids and it is really difficult to Christmas shop with your kids in tow.
 Also, yes more money would be great, BUT, Really now, Florida is like the edge of the earth. Can you imagine the haul there? Yes, Vegas is much more centrally located then Florida. ALOT easier haul for 90% of the contestants AND stock contractors then Florida. Â
First, not responding just to you -- just finally picked one to comment
Whether people take their children or not isn't as much the issue as Rodeo bills itself as a 'family' event. Think back over the this last week & the replay of Trevor's comment saying just that. He & Shada were on Fox and Friends this morning saying the same thing again, Rodeo is a Family event: good, wholesome fun....
Maybe the contestants would like to be able to take their children whether or not fan's do or not?
PS: I'm neither defending or opposing -- just thought I'd throw out another side to the 'kid' issue. |
|
| |
|
 Baby Blue's
Posts: 7304
Location: Texas | TXBO - 2013-12-16 11:44 AM bocephus's mama - 2013-12-16 10:51 AM TXBO - 2013-12-16 10:35 AM yellowhorse1 - 2013-12-16 10:12 AM TXBO - 2013-12-16 10:05 AM yellowhorse1 - 2013-12-16 8:33 AM TXBO - 2013-12-16 8:28 AM I'd be very surprised if Vegas doesn't have a very attractive counter offer. I don't kno......I thought that to. But go on the Internet and read about it. This thing has already progressed farther than what I would have thought. Honestly. It sounds like to me it's just formality of "signing the papers" now unless Las Vegas does something pretty quick. But your talking about a pretty big disparity in dollars. So I'm not sure they will pony it up.
When I left Vegas in 2002, we had estimated the nongaming economic impact of the NFR around $75 Million. $4 million is a drop in the bucket. I just read that last year they estimated it to be 90 million. I agree it is a drop in the bucket, but how much leeway do they have as far as adding money? And I read another deal that said Orlando is wanting to have it sewed by feb so they can make a big announcement at their silver spurs rodeo. It said they took a vote on a live video feed in front of the prca yesterday and all seven of their commissioners voted to move forward on this.
And $4 million *is* a decent amount when you're talking about $75 million. Like I said before, I wonder what the $4 million would be in terms of an increase in costs to LVE.
It also doesn't isolate the incremental impact of the NFR but that's also significant. $5 million per casino time 23 casinos come up to $115 million. That also is a fraction of the total gaming revenues for the week.... that's just 23 of the biggest. My only point is that with numbers like these, $4 million is not a big number.
Ah....PER CASINO. Now it makes more sense. I was reading it as a group.
You would think those casinos would lobby a little tougher. They'll be losing some change for sure! |
|
| |
|
  Living on the edge of common sense
Posts: 24138
Location: Carpenter, WY | When I think of Tampa, I really don't think of it as cowboy country Maybe the PRCA could take a member vote on the move
|
|
| |
|
 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | teehaha - 2013-12-16 2:16 PM When I think of Tampa, I really don't think of it as cowboy country Maybe the PRCA could take a member vote on the move
the members will vote for more money....what does it matter to them where it's at.... |
|
| |
|
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1100
Location: Southeastern Idaho | Maybe someone has already posted this...sorry if it is a repeat. From Tyson Durfey's facebook page:
I have seen alot of post on social media over the past 24 hours regarding the NFR and the potential move to Florida. There is a lot of very shady arrangements regarding Las Vegas and how they do their contracts. For example over the past several years they have turned down the ability to add extra money for the cowboys. As we all know the National Finals Rodeo adds a little over 6 million dollars in prize money with a 1.7% increase in the contract per year. The increase does not even keep up with inflation. There is a reason why other cities in America have offered nearly 3 times the amount to bring the NFR to other cities. Vegas has had numerous opportunities to increase their bid but just will not do it even though the NFR brings overs 200 million in gross revenue into the city. Just so everybody knows we as NFR qualifiers controlled that vote to turn down the existing contract of 6 million. So when you are mad and upset about the potential move realize that you are mad at the contestants you support. I know that Rodeo has the greatest fans in any American sport we as competitors are just trying to take the sport to the next level and make enough money to have something left when we get too old to Rodeo. Thank you. |
|
| |
|
 Veteran
Posts: 208
| kickincans - 2013-12-15 10:36 PM Well everyone has an opinion and I may be the odd one but I think it does need to move, it's time to find an arena that will make this a RODEO again, room for the team roping,instead of a sling out of the box with no where to go strap em out and watch a real roping, a bigger barrel pattern let em really run, and not so much about the glitz of Vegas more about the Rodeo, it may not be Florida but I think it's time for a change
I agree, the rodeo needs to be about the contestants. But it needs sold out crowds for ticket sales. But the more I think about it after reading the Orlando newspaper story, maybe it's not so bad. Who wouldn't want to be in Fla in winter???? And the Gaylord resort is mega-huge money and glitz. Is that the same Gaylord as in Lazy E Ranch? |
|
| |
|
Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | luvropin - 2013-12-16 2:21 PM Maybe someone has already posted this...sorry if it is a repeat. From Tyson Durfey's facebook page: I have seen alot of post on social media over the past 24 hours regarding the NFR and the potential move to Florida. There is a lot of very shady arrangements regarding Las Vegas and how they do their contracts. For example over the past several years they have turned down the ability to add extra money for the cowboys. As we all know the National Finals Rodeo adds a little over 6 million dollars in prize money with a 1.7% increase in the contract per year. The increase does not even keep up with inflation. There is a reason why other cities in America have offered nearly 3 times the amount to bring the NFR to other cities. Vegas has had numerous opportunities to increase their bid but just will not do it even though the NFR brings overs 200 million in gross revenue into the city. Just so everybody knows we as NFR qualifiers controlled that vote to turn down the existing contract of 6 million. So when you are mad and upset about the potential move realize that you are mad at the contestants you support. I know that Rodeo has the greatest fans in any American sport we as competitors are just trying to take the sport to the next level and make enough money to have something left when we get too old to Rodeo. Thank you.
well now i'm really curious as to what cities have offered 3x the money as las vegas and why they aren't being seriously considered.......??????
It's interesting how the PRCA is using the finalists...... |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 208
| luvropin - 2013-12-16 3:21 PM Maybe someone has already posted this...sorry if it is a repeat. From Tyson Durfey's facebook page: I have seen alot of post on social media over the past 24 hours regarding the NFR and the potential move to Florida. There is a lot of very shady arrangements regarding Las Vegas and how they do their contracts. For example over the past several years they have turned down the ability to add extra money for the cowboys. As we all know the National Finals Rodeo adds a little over 6 million dollars in prize money with a 1.7% increase in the contract per year. The increase does not even keep up with inflation. There is a reason why other cities in America have offered nearly 3 times the amount to bring the NFR to other cities. Vegas has had numerous opportunities to increase their bid but just will not do it even though the NFR brings overs 200 million in gross revenue into the city. Just so everybody knows we as NFR qualifiers controlled that vote to turn down the existing contract of 6 million. So when you are mad and upset about the potential move realize that you are mad at the contestants you support. I know that Rodeo has the greatest fans in any American sport we as competitors are just trying to take the sport to the next level and make enough money to have something left when we get too old to Rodeo. Thank you.
I knew something like this had to be going on. I myself am behind you all the way. Las Vegas has gotten greedy and it's time to stop taking the BS from them. |
|
| |
|
 Expert
Posts: 5290
| I think we need to go back to the TEAM RODEO concept from years ago to take rodeo to the next level. All other sports people get paid even if they don't win, and the team has a backing. Can you imagine the big cities that would field rodeo teams? |
|
| |
|
Baby Blue's
Posts: 7304
Location: Texas | It astounds me how many people lack simple business concepts - and let me preface this by saying I don't care which contract the PRCA signs...
First of all, LVE offered FORTY PERCENT more than it has been paying. That's basically getting a 40% price increase in one year which is unheard of in most industries. Calling it "cheap" or "LVE playing hardball" is just stupid.
Second, when there's an increase like this, LVE should have additional expectations of the PRCA -- and I've yet to hear of anything. What's the PRCA going to do to get that 40%? How are they going to increase LVE's bottom line?
Third, it isn't unusual for a 3rd party to swoop in and make a company an amazing offer BUT at what nonmonetary cost? 1. You have to basically start all over with a town/facility that's never done this before. There will be extreme growing pains. 2. You won't get the fan draw. You just won't. It's fine for the contractual years but your brand -- your company -- would consider this (but, I'm not sure how the PRCA benefits from fans that don't come to the actual rodeo). 3. Will the product and support the town provides be as good? It's a risk when you're already satisfied with the current product.
Edited by bocephus's mama 2013-12-16 2:50 PM
|
|
| |
|
 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| dhdqhllc - 2013-12-16 2:24 PM luvropin - 2013-12-16 2:21 PM Maybe someone has already posted this...sorry if it is a repeat. From Tyson Durfey's facebook page: I have seen alot of post on social media over the past 24 hours regarding the NFR and the potential move to Florida. There is a lot of very shady arrangements regarding Las Vegas and how they do their contracts. For example over the past several years they have turned down the ability to add extra money for the cowboys. As we all know the National Finals Rodeo adds a little over 6 million dollars in prize money with a 1.7% increase in the contract per year. The increase does not even keep up with inflation. There is a reason why other cities in America have offered nearly 3 times the amount to bring the NFR to other cities. Vegas has had numerous opportunities to increase their bid but just will not do it even though the NFR brings overs 200 million in gross revenue into the city. Just so everybody knows we as NFR qualifiers controlled that vote to turn down the existing contract of 6 million. So when you are mad and upset about the potential move realize that you are mad at the contestants you support. I know that Rodeo has the greatest fans in any American sport we as competitors are just trying to take the sport to the next level and make enough money to have something left when we get too old to Rodeo. Thank you. well now i'm really curious as to what cities have offered 3x the money as las vegas and why they aren't being seriously considered.......??????
It's interesting how the PRCA is using the finalists......
Yep. So far, I'm hearing a lot of spin with little specifics.
Does the PRCA leadership have the sophistication to navigate a negotiation like this? |
|
| |
|
Regular
Posts: 91
| I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But, a part of your argument appears to be premised on the belief that they (LVE) was paying the PRCA at "market value" for their part of the deal. I probably have a little more inside info to this situation than the average person, but it is not just Florida that came in higher than Las Vegas....there were several parties. Seems like this is the first time Las Vegas has had any real competition for the finals, and their historic severe undervaluation of the PRCA/NFR is being exposed.
I fully agree with your last paragraph though, and that is the part of this whole deal that would spook me. That being said though, I would bet the NFR ends up staying in Vegas. I would also bet that if it does not stay in Vegas that it will not end up in Florida.
ETA: I intended on quoting Bocephus' Mama's last post.
Edited by Haulin@$$ 2013-12-16 2:54 PM
|
|
| |
|
Baby Blue's
Posts: 7304
Location: Texas | Haulin@$$ - 2013-12-16 2:52 PM I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But, a part of your argument appears to be premised on the belief that they (LVE) was paying the PRCA at "market value" for their part of the deal. I probably have a little more inside info to this situation than the average person, but it is not just Florida that came in higher than Las Vegas....there were several parties. Seems like this is the first time Las Vegas has had any real competition for the finals, and their historic severe undervaluation of the PRCA/NFR is being exposed. I fully agree with your last paragraph though, and that is the part of this whole deal that would spook me. That being said though, I would bet the NFR ends up staying in Vegas. I would also bet that if it does not stay in Vegas that it will not end up in Florida. ETA: I intended on quoting Bocephus' Mama's last post.
I absolutely am lacking inside info BUT I'm wondering what the PRCA would be happy with in general? It's really tough to nail down a market value since it's been in the same place (that is VERY unique) for 30 years. It's only 10 days of rodeo. How much return is a town going to get on $16 MILLON bucks? Break even for the town is $1.6 million a day. Where's all that revenue coming from? |
|
| |
|
Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| bocephus's mama - 2013-12-16 2:41 PM It astounds me how many people lack simple business concepts - and let me preface this by saying I don't care which contract the PRCA signs...
First of all, LVE offered FORTY PERCENT more than it has been paying. That's basically getting a 40% price increase in one year which is unheard of in most industries. Calling it "cheap" or "LVE playing hardball" is just stupid.
Second, when there's an increase like this, LVE should have additional expectations of the PRCA -- and I've yet to hear of anything. What's the PRCA going to do to get that 40%? How are they going to increase LVE's bottom line?
Third, it isn't unusual for a 3rd party to swoop in and make a company an amazing offer BUT at what nonmonetary cost? 1. You have to basically start all over with a town/facility that's never done this before. There will be extreme growing pains. 2. You won't get the fan draw. You just won't. It's fine for the contractual years but your brand -- your company -- would consider this (but, I'm not sure how the PRCA benefits from fans that don't come to the actual rodeo). 3. Will the product and support the town provides be as good? It's a risk when you're already satisfied with the current product.
1) Where did you read that LVE offered a 40% increase? I'd like to read the specifics.
2) LVE is a non-profit set up to attract visitors for the local businesses. The bottom line is in tourism money.
3) Results from a new venue are purely speculative and certainly come with risk. I think risk in this instance is particularly high. I question the sophistication of those responsible for the due diligence. |
|
| |
|
Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| bocephus's mama - 2013-12-16 2:58 PM Haulin@$$ - 2013-12-16 2:52 PM I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But, a part of your argument appears to be premised on the belief that they (LVE) was paying the PRCA at "market value" for their part of the deal. I probably have a little more inside info to this situation than the average person, but it is not just Florida that came in higher than Las Vegas....there were several parties. Seems like this is the first time Las Vegas has had any real competition for the finals, and their historic severe undervaluation of the PRCA/NFR is being exposed. I fully agree with your last paragraph though, and that is the part of this whole deal that would spook me. That being said though, I would bet the NFR ends up staying in Vegas. I would also bet that if it does not stay in Vegas that it will not end up in Florida. ETA: I intended on quoting Bocephus' Mama's last post. I absolutely am lacking inside info BUT I'm wondering what the PRCA would be happy with in general? It's really tough to nail down a market value since it's been in the same place (that is VERY unique) for 30 years. It's only 10 days of rodeo. How much return is a town going to get on $16 MILLON bucks? Break even for the town is $1.6 million a day. Where's all that revenue coming from?
They are projecting a sellout arena for 10 day. That's the breakeven. It's 40% larger than T&M.
The return is in local economic activity.
Had Vegas addressed a solution for a larger arena, this would never be an issue.
|
|
| |
|
Baby Blue's
Posts: 7304
Location: Texas | TXBO - 2013-12-16 2:58 PM bocephus's mama - 2013-12-16 2:41 PM It astounds me how many people lack simple business concepts - and let me preface this by saying I don't care which contract the PRCA signs...
First of all, LVE offered FORTY PERCENT more than it has been paying. That's basically getting a 40% price increase in one year which is unheard of in most industries. Calling it "cheap" or "LVE playing hardball" is just stupid.
Second, when there's an increase like this, LVE should have additional expectations of the PRCA -- and I've yet to hear of anything. What's the PRCA going to do to get that 40%? How are they going to increase LVE's bottom line?
Third, it isn't unusual for a 3rd party to swoop in and make a company an amazing offer BUT at what nonmonetary cost? 1. You have to basically start all over with a town/facility that's never done this before. There will be extreme growing pains. 2. You won't get the fan draw. You just won't. It's fine for the contractual years but your brand -- your company -- would consider this (but, I'm not sure how the PRCA benefits from fans that don't come to the actual rodeo). 3. Will the product and support the town provides be as good? It's a risk when you're already satisfied with the current product. 1) Where did you read that LVE offered a 40% increase? I'd like to read the specifics.
2) LVE is a non-profit set up to attract visitors for the local businesses. The bottom line is in tourism money.
3) Results from a new venue are purely speculative and certainly come with risk. I think risk in this instance is particularly high. I question the sophistication of those responsible for the due diligence.
The increase was in response to CJE's post:
~~Similar to what I read also..........from facebook.....disclaimer.....from another page not directly to me I got this from Kathi Myers, a long time friend of the family - wife to Bull Riding Champion Jimmie Myers - was /is on WPRA board. So her info is more solid in my opinion since she is close to the real sources. PRCA feels the NFR is worth more than Las Vegas is wanting to pay to keep it. The contract with LVE is done following next year's NFR. PRCA has an offer from Osceola Country, FL to move it there. The PRCA Board voted today to reject the Las Vegas offer of a $4million raise to the $10 million it pays them now. They have been offered $16 million to move it to Kissimmee and Osceola County is promising to build a new arena, etc. by 2016. The 2015 event will be held in Orlando until the new facility is done. You can find a press release from the Osceola News-Gazette. You can also read Las Vegas' comment by searching FB for NFR Experience. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
And what I was trying to point out on the bottom line remark is -- why does the PRCA deserve SO much of an increase? Normally, there is an exchange with negotiations. For instance, Vegas says "hey, I'll give you 40% more money" and the PRCA will promise a percentage increase in LVE's travel dollars. I don't see the NFR blowing up and going mainstream anytime soon -- Vegas or no Vegas -- so the PRCA is getting a lot for a little.
Wonder how long it's been in the works? 90 days is SUCH a short amount of time for such a large operation with astronomical variables. |
|
| |
|
Regular
Posts: 91
| bocephus's mama - 2013-12-16 2:58 PM
Haulin@$$ - 2013-12-16 2:52 PM I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But, a part of your argument appears to be premised on the belief that they (LVE) was paying the PRCA at "market value" for their part of the deal. I probably have a little more inside info to this situation than the average person, but it is not just Florida that came in higher than Las Vegas....there were several parties. Seems like this is the first time Las Vegas has had any real competition for the finals, and their historic severe undervaluation of the PRCA/NFR is being exposed. I fully agree with your last paragraph though, and that is the part of this whole deal that would spook me. That being said though, I would bet the NFR ends up staying in Vegas. I would also bet that if it does not stay in Vegas that it will not end up in Florida. ETA: I intended on quoting Bocephus' Mama's last post.
I absolutely am lacking inside info BUT I'm wondering what the PRCA would be happy with in general? It's really tough to nail down a market value since it's been in the same place (that is VERY unique) for 30 years. It's only 10 days of rodeo. How much return is a town going to get on $16 MILLON bucks? Break even for the town is $1.6 million a day.  Where's all that revenue coming from?
I really don't know what it would take to make everybody happy. If I was spearheading this deal I would be willing to accept somewhat less from Las Vegas, as it is a proven commodity, but it would still have to be in the same ball park as the other offers.
I agree that it is extremely tough, if not impossible, to nail down an exact market value for an event like the finals. I have no clue what an appropriate ROI is for this type of event. I have heard the $200,000,000 figure getting kicked around for total economic impact generated by the NFR (no idea if that is accurate or not), and based on that figure a $16 million dollar investment seams to be an undervaluation.
From the numbers I have heard getting kicked around, the NFR wasn't even the highest contestant paying event in Las Vegas during the finals (world series of team roping). That to me is unacceptable.
Like I said earlier though, I really think Vegas will rally and keep the NFR. |
|
| |
|
Lickable I mean Likeable
Posts: 3965
Location: De Berry, Tx | Â I think the reason Florida's bid was thrown out there and not other cities is because it is at the other end of the states. They knew what they were doing when they wrote the article proposing Florida as the next NFR town. There are other cities bidding for it including the Dallas/FW area. The facility needs to be able to house more fans as well as accommodate the contestants better. I think that is in the negotiations too otherwise the promise of a new facility in Florida would have never come up. As far as people not going. It may lose some fans but it will gain more. Its the NFR people will go no matter where it's held. Imo |
|
| |
|
Baby Blue's
Posts: 7304
Location: Texas | Haulin@$$ - 2013-12-16 3:10 PM bocephus's mama - 2013-12-16 2:58 PM Haulin@$$ - 2013-12-16 2:52 PM I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But, a part of your argument appears to be premised on the belief that they (LVE) was paying the PRCA at "market value" for their part of the deal. I probably have a little more inside info to this situation than the average person, but it is not just Florida that came in higher than Las Vegas....there were several parties. Seems like this is the first time Las Vegas has had any real competition for the finals, and their historic severe undervaluation of the PRCA/NFR is being exposed. I fully agree with your last paragraph though, and that is the part of this whole deal that would spook me. That being said though, I would bet the NFR ends up staying in Vegas. I would also bet that if it does not stay in Vegas that it will not end up in Florida. ETA: I intended on quoting Bocephus' Mama's last post. I absolutely am lacking inside info BUT I'm wondering what the PRCA would be happy with in general? It's really tough to nail down a market value since it's been in the same place (that is VERY unique) for 30 years. It's only 10 days of rodeo. How much return is a town going to get on $16 MILLON bucks? Break even for the town is $1.6 million a day. Where's all that revenue coming from? I really don't know what it would take to make everybody happy. If I was spearheading this deal I would be willing to accept somewhat less from Las Vegas, as it is a proven commodity, but it would still have to be in the same ball park as the other offers. I agree that it is extremely tough, if not impossible, to nail down an exact market value for an event like the finals. I have no clue what an appropriate ROI is for this type of event. I have heard the $200,000,000 figure getting kicked around for total economic impact generated by the NFR (no idea if that is accurate or not ), and based on that figure a $16 million dollar investment seams to be an undervaluation. From the numbers I have heard getting kicked around, the NFR wasn't even the highest contestant paying event in Las Vegas during the finals (world series of team roping ). That to me is unacceptable. Like I said earlier though, I really think Vegas will rally and keep the NFR.
I would LOVE to see the breakdown of how the NFR will generate that much revenue for an area. LOVE to see it. |
|
| |
|
Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| bocephus's mama - 2013-12-16 3:09 PM The increase was in response to CJE's post:
~~Similar to what I read also..........from facebook.....disclaimer.....from another page not directly to me
I got this from Kathi Myers, a long time friend of the family - wife to Bull Riding Champion Jimmie Myers - was /is on WPRA board. So her info is more solid in my opinion since she is close to the real sources.
PRCA feels the NFR is worth more than Las Vegas is wanting to pay to keep it. The contract with LVE is done following next year's NFR. PRCA has an offer from Osceola Country, FL to move it there. The PRCA Board voted today to reject the Las Vegas offer of a $4million raise to the $10 million it pays them now. They have been offered $16 million to move it to Kissimmee and Osceola County is promising to build a new arena, etc. by 2016. The 2015 event will be held in Orlando until the new facility is done. You can find a press release from the Osceola News-Gazette. You can also read Las Vegas' comment by searching FB for NFR Experience.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
And what I was trying to point out on the bottom line remark is -- why does the PRCA deserve SO much of an increase? Normally, there is an exchange with negotiations. For instance, Vegas says "hey, I'll give you 40% more money" and the PRCA will promise a percentage increase in LVE's travel dollars. I don't see the NFR blowing up and going mainstream anytime soon -- Vegas or no Vegas -- so the PRCA is getting a lot for a little.
Wonder how long it's been in the works? 90 days is SUCH a short amount of time for such a large operation with astronomical variables.
Gotcha, thanks. I don't really trust the numbers I'm hearing online. I'd like to see the offer sheet. |
|
| |
Folks on-line