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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
    
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bear - 2015-06-27 11:18 PM Clay, those are very interesting points, and I appreciate it. Most of these I was aware of, but for a couple. First, you said that Lincoln had made plans to ship all blacks out of the country. Where can I find this information, because that does surprise me. I've never heard that before. Second.....who actually started the Civil War? Clearly both sides were preparing for an eventual war, because it was a powder keg ready to blow, but who actually started the war? Also, do you see anything like the Civil War as a possibility today? I can actually see insurrection and uprisings as a distinct possibility in today's America. A few years ago talk of this sort of thing, along with secession seemed far fetched, but today it doesn't seem far fetched at all. The big difference is the ideological divide can not be neatly divided geographically. I honestly think we are circling the drain. Even if the GOP sweep the elections in 2016, I have very little faith that the vitally important issues facing us will not be addressed in any substantial way. The GOP, for the most part, is full of hot air. Most of them will not be willing to commit to taking the bold steps necessary to right the ship. What would happen if Texas secceeded from the Union? Is that even a real possibility?
I learned about deporting the slaves when I was in High School but I was told they were sending them back home to Africa. I had a great History teacher and he always spoke about what historians wanted us to know and what they didn't and how so many facts were ignored and not put into history books. That always made a lot of sense to me. You can look at what is going on now and how totally different one side reports the "facts" over the other side.
Here is a perfect example of two sides but they both agree Lincoln, in fact, was planning on deporting blacks. Some say it would be voluntary.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/9/book-lincoln-sought-to-deport-freed-slaves/?page=all
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/26/blog-posting/did-abraham-lincoln-plan-send-ex-slaves-central-am/
http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
Location: wherever my daughter's running | Three 4 Luck - 2015-06-28 10:33 AM
 The war started at Ft Sumpter in SC, right?  I don't remember who fired the first shots tho.
The South fired the first shot from the batteries of Charleston to Ft. Sumter which was occupied by Union soldiers. The Union was given the opportunity to leave Ft. Sumter - but refused. Lincoln played an excellent game of chess coaxing the South to fire first. The cannons blasted for over 24 hours. The Union was out of supplies and the Confederate ships had access to the harbor blocked - so the Union ships could not get supplies to their men at Ft. Sumter. The Union surrendered. The US flag flying over Ft. Sumter was damaged during the battle. This further angered northerners. Near the end of the war Lincoln gave the order to stop providing food and water to confederate prisoners. Some died from dehydration in the end. Lots of true Southern history was handed down from generation to generation on front porches. Some accounts of things were written dare I say a little slanted | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | cruise - 2015-06-28 4:14 PM
Three 4 Luck - 2015-06-28 10:33 AM
 The war started at Ft Sumpter in SC, right?  I don't remember who fired the first shots tho.
The South fired the first shot from the batteries of Charleston to Ft. Sumter which was occupied by Union soldiers. The Union was given the opportunity to leave Ft. Sumter - but refused. Lincoln played an excellent game of chess coaxing the South to fire first. The cannons blasted for over 24 hours. The Union was out of supplies and the Confederate ships had access to the harbor blocked - so the Union ships could not get supplies to their men at Ft. Sumter. The Union surrendered. The US flag flying over Ft. Sumter was damaged during the battle. This further angered northerners. Near the end of the war Lincoln gave the order to stop providing food and water to confederate prisoners. Some died from dehydration in the end. Lots of true Southern history was handed down from generation to generation on front porches. Some accounts of things were written dare I say a little slanted
Let's be honest here. The prisoners on both sides were treated harshly and subject to horrendous cruelty. Libby prison in Richmond was death trap. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Nevertooold - 2015-06-28 11:38 AM
Bear - 2015-06-27 11:18 PM Clay, those are very interesting points, and I appreciate it. Most of these I was aware of, but for a couple. First, you said that Lincoln had made plans to ship all blacks out of the country. Where can I find this information, because that does surprise me. I've never heard that before. Second.....who actually started the Civil War? Clearly both sides were preparing for an eventual war, because it was a powder keg ready to blow, but who actually started the war? Also, do you see anything like the Civil War as a possibility today? I can actually see insurrection and uprisings as a distinct possibility in today's America. A few years ago talk of this sort of thing, along with secession seemed far fetched, but today it doesn't seem far fetched at all. The big difference is the ideological divide can not be neatly divided geographically. I honestly think we are circling the drain. Even if the GOP sweep the elections in 2016, I have very little faith that the vitally important issues facing us will not be addressed in any substantial way. The GOP, for the most part, is full of hot air. Most of them will not be willing to commit to taking the bold steps necessary to right the ship. What would happen if Texas secceeded from the Union? Is that even a real possibility?
I learned about deporting the slaves when I was in High School but I was told they were sending them back home to Africa. I had a great History teacher and he always spoke about what historians wanted us to know and what they didn't and how so many facts were ignored and not put into history books. That always made a lot of sense to me. You can look at what is going on now and how totally different one side reports the "facts" over the other side.Â
Here is a perfect example of two sides but they both agree Lincoln, in fact, was planning on deporting blacks. Some say it would be voluntary.http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/9/book-lincoln-sought-to-deport-freed-slaves/?page=all http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/26/blog-posting/did-abraham-lincoln-plan-send-ex-slaves-central-am/http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipationÂ
There were 2 million slaves at the outbreak of the Civil War. No way would he have been able to deport them. Even half would have been very tough. Even if he could have gotten half of them farmed out or deported, I don't see how it would have made much difference in the grand scheme of things. | |
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | My son's farm is Rebel Farms. He is a southern boy thru and thru; he is very proud of his HERITAGE not HATRED. He flies a Confederate flag on his ponds. His gf is a barrel racer, and she asked me last night what would happen when she's hauling her horses in a trailer with Rebel Farms on the side? Would someone hurt her horses or her or run over her trailer. . . . I told her at this point I have no answer for that. And that's simply awful to have to tell a young girl she might not be safe because of the stupidity going on right now.
I would tell her to be very careful, there are always crazies out there. The reason for this entire thread is that a young man with hatred in his heart, MURDERED innocent people in a church. That should tell you that there are crazy, hate filled, misguided people everywhere.... | |
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Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
Location: wherever my daughter's running | Bear - 2015-06-28 5:40 PM
cruise - 2015-06-28 4:14 PM
Three 4 Luck - 2015-06-28 10:33 AM
 The war started at Ft Sumpter in SC, right?  I don't remember who fired the first shots tho.
The South fired the first shot from the batteries of Charleston to Ft. Sumter which was occupied by Union soldiers. The Union was given the opportunity to leave Ft. Sumter - but refused. Lincoln played an excellent game of chess coaxing the South to fire first. The cannons blasted for over 24 hours. The Union was out of supplies and the Confederate ships had access to the harbor blocked - so the Union ships could not get supplies to their men at Ft. Sumter. The Union surrendered. The US flag flying over Ft. Sumter was damaged during the battle. This further angered northerners. Near the end of the war Lincoln gave the order to stop providing food and water to confederate prisoners. Some died from dehydration in the end. Lots of true Southern history was handed down from generation to generation on front porches. Some accounts of things were written dare I say a little slanted
Let's be honest here. The prisoners on both sides were treated harshly and subject to horrendous cruelty. Libby prison in Richmond was death trap.
I an being honest. I don't disagree about the treatment on both sides. I will say there is a huge difference in having the means to feed prisoners as did the north vs. not having the means to feed prisoners as did the south. Both sides had over populated prisons - both sides were I'll prepared to house such large numbers but one did not have the means to feed but did what they could. The other had the means to feed but refused to. | |
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  Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | Bear - 2015-06-27 11:18 PM
Clay, those are very interesting points, and I appreciate it. Most of these I was aware of, but for a couple.
First, you said that Lincoln had made plans to ship all blacks out of the country. Where can I find this information, because that does surprise me. I've never heard that before.
Second.....who actually started the Civil War? Clearly both sides were preparing for an eventual war, because it was a powder keg ready to blow, but who actually started the war?
Also, do you see anything like the Civil War as a possibility today? I can actually see insurrection and uprisings as a distinct possibility in today's America. A few years ago talk of this sort of thing, along with secession seemed far fetched, but today it doesn't seem far fetched at all. The big difference is the ideological divide can not be neatly divided geographically.
I honestly think we are circling the drain. Even if the GOP sweep the elections in 2016, I have very little faith that the vitally important issues facing us will not be addressed in any substantial way. The GOP, for the most part, is full of hot air.
Most of them will not be willing to commit to taking the bold steps necessary to right the ship.
What would happen if Texas secceeded from the Union? Is that even a real possibility?
The idea of Lincoln shipping slaves out of America after the Civil War is buried in history texts. The African Country of Liberia is where Lincoln wanted to send them. Liberia is a nation founded by Freed Slaves. And Freed Slaves not blacks. Also going to 1791 a free black man sued and won in court the right to own slaves. This is historical fact that is not taught in history classes either. Lincoln was killed prior to attempting to complete his post Civil War Plan in regards to Freed Slaves.
And while The Civil War's first shot was fired at Ft. Sumter S.C. by The Seceded State of South Carolina, She was provoked by a Northern Naval Blockade!
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| Just for curiosity, has anyone ever heard of Melrose Plantation near Natchitoches LA? It was owned by a free woman of color who owned quite a few slaves. Her plantation was actually given to her by her owner who was the father of her children. Her descendants still own it today. I bet most people in the US know very little about her. Bet most people would like to forget that part of history too. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1395
Location: Missouri | streakysox - 2015-06-28 8:08 PM
Just for curiosity, has anyone ever heard of Melrose Plantation near Natchitoches LA? It was owned by a free woman of color who owned quite a few slaves. Her plantation was actually given to her by her owner who was the father of her children. Her descendants still own it today. I bet most people in the US know very little about her. Bet most people would like to forget that part of history too.
I haven't! I'll have to look this up! (That is, if any credible info can be found given the circumstances....) | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | foundation horse - 2015-06-28 7:46 PM
Bear - 2015-06-27 11:18 PM
Clay, those are very interesting points, and I appreciate it. Most of these I was aware of, but for a couple.
First, you said that Lincoln had made plans to ship all blacks out of the country. Where can I find this information, because that does surprise me. I've never heard that before.
Second.....who actually started the Civil War? Clearly both sides were preparing for an eventual war, because it was a powder keg ready to blow, but who actually started the war?
Also, do you see anything like the Civil War as a possibility today? I can actually see insurrection and uprisings as a distinct possibility in today's America. A few years ago talk of this sort of thing, along with secession seemed far fetched, but today it doesn't seem far fetched at all. The big difference is the ideological divide can not be neatly divided geographically.
I honestly think we are circling the drain. Even if the GOP sweep the elections in 2016, I have very little faith that the vitally important issues facing us will not be addressed in any substantial way. The GOP, for the most part, is full of hot air.
Most of them will not be willing to commit to taking the bold steps necessary to right the ship.
What would happen if Texas secceeded from the Union? Is that even a real possibility?
The idea of Lincoln shipping slaves out of America after the Civil War is buried in history texts. The African Country of Liberia is where Lincoln wanted to send them. Liberia is a nation founded by Freed Slaves. And Freed Slaves not blacks. Also going to 1791 a free black man sued and won in court the right to own slaves. This is historical fact that is not taught in history classes either. Lincoln was killed prior to attempting to complete his post Civil War Plan in regards to Freed Slaves.
And while The Civil War's first shot was fired at Ft. Sumter S.C. by The Seceded State of South Carolina, She was provoked by a Northern Naval Blockade!
It sounds to me that he definitely had a plan to relocate at least some of them. As to whether he was planning on doing it forceably will probably never be settled. Liberia has always credited the USA for it's formation. I think president Monroe was president at the time, hence the name of their Capitol, Monrovia. My impression is that Lincoln scrapped the idea, possibly mainly because he had bigger fish to fry, in the aftermath of the war and reconstruction.
So the first shots were fired by the South. Just like the first shots of the war with Japan was fired by the Japanese, who also claimed they were provoked by the oil embargo and the freezing of Japanese assets. Same thing.
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Expert
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Three 4 Luck - 2015-06-28 9:34 AM
Chandler's Mom - 2015-06-28 12:02 AM foundation horse - 2015-06-27 11:20 PM Chandler's Mom - 2015-06-27 11:07 PM streakysox - 2015-06-27 5:16 PM I have done extensive genealogy and though most of my ancestors were from the South, the only ones who owned slaves lived in Connecticut. The men who fought from the South were volunteers, a very few were conscripted (drafted). Almost all of the men who served from the North were conscripted. It does not matter what the issues were that caused the war, the North would have an army. As for the people who are wanting to change history,their argument about the flag is totally incorrect. The flag they are protesting, only represented a very small number of Southern soldiers. Google 1st National, 2nd National, and 3rd national flags of the Confederacy. It is easy to see that someone has not been taught correctly or has formed their own opinion. Look up the speech from the black congressman who spoke in favor of adopting the Mississippi state flag.(I can't cut and paste on my tablet). It is a good rĂŞead. You cannot change history. You cannot leave out the parts that you don't like. Our history is what has made us what we are no matter what color our skin is. One last thing about the Sons of Confederate Veterans, it is an organization that strives to preserve the history of the Civil War. Many of the men are involved in the reenactments but many are not. It is a genealogy and religious organization. I got my husband in it and have helped several others to become members. I am a proud member of United Daughters of the Confederacy which is also a genealogy and religious organization. As for Gone With the Wind, have any of you seen the movies Next Friday or Friday After Next (I believe those are the names)? Those are the most demeaning movies to the black race that I have ever seen in my life. Blacks seem to think they are pretty funny. Now we are going to have to change the names of our horses such as Confederate Leader so we do not offend anyone. My son's farm is Rebel Farms. He is a southern boy thru and thru; he is very proud of his HERITAGE not HATRED. He flies a Confederate flag on his ponds. His gf is a barrel racer, and she asked me last night what would happen when she's hauling her horses in a trailer with Rebel Farms on the side? Would someone hurt her horses or her or run over her trailer. . . . I told her at this point I have no answer for that. And that's simply awful to have to tell a young girl she might not be safe because of the stupidity going on right now. Suggest going armed and be prepared to defend herself and her horses. Trust me when I say she could handle the "being armed" part!! Laura would protect her horses to the end. And Lord help them if he's hauling with her. . . I sent your "myth and fact" post to Chandler. He said "she sure knows her stuff"!! As I posted before, he knew more on this----the truth----than I did. He had already told me several of the things you listed that I was totally wrong on.
Right now she's running pretty local----to Monroe LA, Jackson MS, and small SE AR shows and spots in between. But they will expand out and I worry. Guess someone else's freedoms and feeling of being "oppressed" means she and Chandler won't have the freedom to put their farm name on their trailer. And that down right pi$$es me off. | |
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Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| Itsme - 2015-06-28 10:27 PM
Hmmm They are all carrying an American Flag not a Confederate flag. | |
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Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| I took this picture in Marshall TX 4-9-10. I think these billboards lease for about $400 a month and this was up for about 4 or 5 months.
 (OBAMA SIGN small image.jpg)
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 OBAMA SIGN small image.jpg (93KB - 167 downloads)
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Nevertooold - 2015-06-28 11:38 AM
Bear - 2015-06-27 11:18 PM Clay, those are very interesting points, and I appreciate it. Most of these I was aware of, but for a couple. First, you said that Lincoln had made plans to ship all blacks out of the country. Where can I find this information, because that does surprise me. I've never heard that before. Second.....who actually started the Civil War? Clearly both sides were preparing for an eventual war, because it was a powder keg ready to blow, but who actually started the war? Also, do you see anything like the Civil War as a possibility today? I can actually see insurrection and uprisings as a distinct possibility in today's America. A few years ago talk of this sort of thing, along with secession seemed far fetched, but today it doesn't seem far fetched at all. The big difference is the ideological divide can not be neatly divided geographically. I honestly think we are circling the drain. Even if the GOP sweep the elections in 2016, I have very little faith that the vitally important issues facing us will not be addressed in any substantial way. The GOP, for the most part, is full of hot air. Most of them will not be willing to commit to taking the bold steps necessary to right the ship. What would happen if Texas secceeded from the Union? Is that even a real possibility?
I learned about deporting the slaves when I was in High School but I was told they were sending them back home to Africa. I had a great History teacher and he always spoke about what historians wanted us to know and what they didn't and how so many facts were ignored and not put into history books. That always made a lot of sense to me. You can look at what is going on now and how totally different one side reports the "facts" over the other side.Â
Here is a perfect example of two sides but they both agree Lincoln, in fact, was planning on deporting blacks. Some say it would be voluntary.http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/9/book-lincoln-sought-to-deport-freed-slaves/?page=all http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/26/blog-posting/did-abraham-lincoln-plan-send-ex-slaves-central-am/http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipationÂ
My son goes to a private Christian school, and when he comes home and tells me some of the things the history teacher tells them about slavery and the Civil War. . . I swear she wrote her own history. How can they get away with that? Why does history not have to be FACTUAL??? It is what it is, period. It happened and it isn't changeable. | |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Anniemae - 2015-06-28 4:47 PM
 My son's farm is Rebel Farms. He is a southern boy thru and thru; he is very proud of his HERITAGE not HATRED. He flies a Confederate flag on his ponds. His gf is a barrel racer, and she asked me last night what would happen when she's hauling her horses in a trailer with Rebel Farms on the side? Would someone hurt her horses or her or run over her trailer. . . . I told her at this point I have no answer for that. And that's simply awful to have to tell a young girl she might not be safe because of the stupidity going on right now.
 I would tell her to be very careful, there are always crazies out there.  The reason for this entire thread is that a young man with hatred in his heart, MURDERED innocent people in a church.  That should tell you that there are crazy, hate filled, misguided people everywhere....
Yes mam, and that terrifies me. That's why I say they don't have the freedom to put their name on their trailer cause someone else's freedom will be offended. What makes one person's right superior to the other person's? | |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | streakysox - 2015-06-28 8:08 PM
Just for curiosity, has anyone ever heard of Melrose Plantation near Natchitoches LA? It was owned by a free woman of color who owned quite a few slaves. Her plantation was actually given to her by her owner who was the father of her children. Her descendants still own it today. I bet most people in the US know very little about her. Bet most people would like to forget that part of history too.
My mother took me on a trip years ago to tour the plantations in that area. (Think it was called The Pilgrimage??) We did go to Melrose Plantation, but I don't remember learning this info. Thanks for the lesson! I'm amazed at what I'm learning from this thread. | |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Itsme - 2015-06-28 10:27 PM
Would you just look at all those Confederate flags????
Sorry for taking over this page of the thread!
Edited by Chandler's Mom 2015-06-28 11:14 PM
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Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
Location: wherever my daughter's running | Speaking of Ft. Sumter ---- erasing histroy - I have a huge problem with erasing histroy - good or bad http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150628/PC16/150629493/fort-sumter-furls-its-confederate-flags-probably-forever | |
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Veteran
Posts: 120
| musikmaker - 2015-06-25 4:50 PM
banjomia - 2015-06-25 3:35 PM Murphy - 2015-06-25 12:57 PM banjomia - 2015-06-25 1:14 PM I am a staunch conservative and I struggle with the fact that no one recognizes the confederate battle flag as a symbol of racism. I am a bit shocked at what I read on these posts. I see an immediate stance of defiance and defense. I get that as it seems lately all we see and hear about is crimes committed against blacks by whites and all other crimes are blatantly ignored. I agree its out of control and it makes me ****ed off with resentment and wonder why our current administration and the lame stream media continues to divide our country...... BUT, The confederate battle flag was used as symbol of opposition to the civil rights act. That is a well known fact. It was adopted by both the KKK and the Dixiecrats. I completely understand why it is being asked to be removed. It is long over due. Symbols of racism do not belong anywhere.. KKK also carried the US flag. Should that be banned also?
It's a slippery slope. Where are lines drawn? Do we ban anything and everything offensive? NO..Once again you are missing the point of the confederate battle flag. The US flag was not founded and created for the intent of slavery. The Confederate battle flag was. Do you not understand that? The very meaning and creation of the confederate battle flag was because of the desire to fight against the government and the civil rights act. Comparing flying the US flag and the Confederate flags is like apples and oranges
A little history that I find interesting and bizarre as I'm sure you do, too, but we forget that once upon a time the peasants of the world were not allowed to know how to read. It was a serious crime to be caught 'reading'! Why? Because mankind can control the illiterate much easier than the educated. In the 1800's in America the blacks were learning to read! They then freed themselves.
Here we are today...and I really question our literacy, hence, the control that a governement is gaining on us...again.
I see this as a "stoop for that you'll stoop for this". It must stop, it's out of control!Â
"While many still debate the ultimate causes of the Civil War, Pulitzer Prize-winning author James McPherson writes that, "The Civil War started because of uncompromising differences between the free and slave states over the power of the national government to prohibit slavery in the territories that had not yet become states. When Abraham Lincoln won election in 1860 as the first Republican president on a platform pledging to keep slavery out of the territories, seven slave states in the deep South seceded and formed a new nation, the Confederate States of America. The incoming Lincoln administration and most of the Northern people refused to recognize the legitimacy of secession. They feared that it would discredit democracy and create a fatal precedent that would eventually fragment the no-longer United States into several small, squabbling countries."
You say it was about money..........but lets not confuse the two...slavery WAS money. The states seceded from the Union because they didn't want the government telling them they couldn't own slaves. | |
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