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 The Vaccinator
Posts: 3810
   
Location: Slipping down the slope of old age. Boo hoo. | annemarea - 2014-01-02 2:30 PM
 Delta Cowgirl,
you are so right about it being a pain in the rear. With my work schedule it is tough to make sure they are worked every single day. And the fact that 2 out of 3 of my horses have Type 2 makes me think it is much more prevalent than what researchers think.Â
I agree. It's out there and many people are dealing with it and do not even realize it.... and are spending lots of time, effort and $$ on vet bills, supplements.... spinning their wheels. When horse shopping these days I am obsessive about genetics, pre-purchase exams, x-rays, blood work.... horses are expensive and require such a commitment of time as it is for a nice, sound and sane horse. I DO NOT want to "buy trouble". Some people do not want to go to the expense of testing, but yet will end up with a horse with lots of issues and over the long haul will spend thousands upon thousands trying to "fix" their horse..... ??? Why not start with as clean a slate as possible? | |
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I Need a Xanax!
Posts: 2774
| annemarea - 2014-01-02 2:30 PM
 Delta Cowgirl,
you are so right about it being a pain in the rear. With my work schedule it is tough to make sure they are worked every single day. And the fact that 2 out of 3 of my horses have Type 2 makes me think it is much more prevalent than what researchers think.Â
This is so true! I've just figured out that one of my most likely has PSSM and looking back, before I knew anything about it, I can think of 3 or 4 other horses I've had that fit all the symptoms too and I just thought they had strangely turned into fire breathing dragons for no reason. The frustrating part is how much they need to be exercised because the only reason I have kept the mare I have for the past 6 years is that she's a horse you could ride once a month or so and have a nice enjoyable ride and she was always laid back and easy going. Then this past year she's changed so much and after experimenting with diet and exercise I figured out the PSSM thing but I'm between a rock and a hard spot because I have 2 small kids and don't ride much and can't imagine keeping her worked enough to keep the PSSM under control so that I can actually ride her when I get a chance, ugh!!!  | |
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 "Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Used2B - 2014-01-02 5:08 PM annemarea - 2014-01-02 2:30 PM Delta Cowgirl,
you are so right about it being a pain in the rear. With my work schedule it is tough to make sure they are worked every single day. And the fact that 2 out of 3 of my horses have Type 2 makes me think it is much more prevalent than what researchers think. This is so true! I've just figured out that one of my most likely has PSSM and looking back, before I knew anything about it, I can think of 3 or 4 other horses I've had that fit all the symptoms too and I just thought they had strangely turned into fire breathing dragons for no reason. The frustrating part is how much they need to be exercised because the only reason I have kept the mare I have for the past 6 years is that she's a horse you could ride once a month or so and have a nice enjoyable ride and she was always laid back and easy going. Then this past year she's changed so much and after experimenting with diet and exercise I figured out the PSSM thing but I'm between a rock and a hard spot because I have 2 small kids and don't ride much and can't imagine keeping her worked enough to keep the PSSM under control so that I can actually ride her when I get a chance, ugh!!!
I convinced hubby to let me buy a large 60 Ft diameter hot walker so that I can at least put them on that when I'm running short on time. They seem to be doing pretty good right now with the grass dead and lots of turnout. Saddled my mare last week for the first time in a long time and she didn't seem too cinchy at all. She was also pretty well behaved considering how much time she's had off. | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | So, hypothetically speaking, is it possible for a horse to be on grass 24/7 and no grain or anything else what so ever to have pssm and show no symptoms? | |
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I Need a Xanax!
Posts: 2774
| cavyrunsbarrels - 2014-01-02 6:33 PM
So, hypothetically speaking, is it possible for a horse to be on grass 24/7 and no grain or anything else what so ever  to have pssm and show no symptoms?
Is this a trick question? Lol. I'd say the answer to your question is yes for some horses, as long as the horse is ridden/worked/exercised daily. Other horses on grass 24/7 would show symptoms no matter how much they were worked though. | |
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I Need a Xanax!
Posts: 2774
| annemarea - 2014-01-02 5:22 PM
Used2B - 2014-01-02 5:08 PM annemarea - 2014-01-02 2:30 PM Â Delta Cowgirl,
you are so right about it being a pain in the rear. With my work schedule it is tough to make sure they are worked every single day. And the fact that 2 out of 3 of my horses have Type 2 makes me think it is much more prevalent than what researchers think. This is so true! I've just figured out that one of my most likely has PSSM and looking back, before I knew anything about it, I can think of 3 or 4 other horses I've had that fit all the symptoms too and I just thought they had strangely turned into fire breathing dragons for no reason. The frustrating part is how much they need to be exercised because the only reason I have kept the mare I have for the past 6 years is that she's a horse you could ride once a month or so and have a nice enjoyable ride and she was always laid back and easy going. Then this past year she's changed so much and after experimenting with diet and exercise I figured out the PSSM thing but I'm between a rock and a hard spot because I have 2 small kids and don't ride much and can't imagine keeping her worked enough to keep the PSSM under control so that I can actually ride her when I get a chance, ugh!!!
I have a hot walker too and I'm going to try to do some experimenting on how much(actually, how little) my mare would have to be on it to keep her symptoms under control so that I could actually saddle her up and go for a nice ride when I got the chance. Also, do you think walking about an hour a day in sand is enough "work" to count as the exercise they need or would a horse have to at least be jogging for a period of time to keep symptoms at bay? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2674
Location: Silver Lake, MN | shorti056 - 2014-01-02 3:40 PM CarrieH77 - 2013-11-22 6:39 AM So I have a question - I am going to be selling my PSSM mare. She is easily managed with diet/exercise is still a competative barrel horse and started roping. How much does this issue decrease her value do you think? She was diagnosed 4 years ago and I have owned her for 6. i would not ask less $$ if it can be managed by diet and exercise. she's proven herself, she's worth the $. now a horse who still has tie ups even after trying every 'management' and diet trick in the book--different story. but not your mare
Well I priced her very affordable for what she is. We will see if I can find the right fit! | |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Used2B - 2014-01-02 7:12 PM annemarea - 2014-01-02 5:22 PM Used2B - 2014-01-02 5:08 PM annemarea - 2014-01-02 2:30 PM Delta Cowgirl,
you are so right about it being a pain in the rear. With my work schedule it is tough to make sure they are worked every single day. And the fact that 2 out of 3 of my horses have Type 2 makes me think it is much more prevalent than what researchers think. This is so true! I've just figured out that one of my most likely has PSSM and looking back, before I knew anything about it, I can think of 3 or 4 other horses I've had that fit all the symptoms too and I just thought they had strangely turned into fire breathing dragons for no reason. The frustrating part is how much they need to be exercised because the only reason I have kept the mare I have for the past 6 years is that she's a horse you could ride once a month or so and have a nice enjoyable ride and she was always laid back and easy going. Then this past year she's changed so much and after experimenting with diet and exercise I figured out the PSSM thing but I'm between a rock and a hard spot because I have 2 small kids and don't ride much and can't imagine keeping her worked enough to keep the PSSM under control so that I can actually ride her when I get a chance, ugh!!! I have a hot walker too and I'm going to try to do some experimenting on how much (actually, how little ) my mare would have to be on it to keep her symptoms under control so that I could actually saddle her up and go for a nice ride when I got the chance. Also, do you think walking about an hour a day in sand is enough "work" to count as the exercise they need or would a horse have to at least be jogging for a period of time to keep symptoms at bay?
It seems to be working pretty well for my two. Sometimes I put them in the round pen for trotting/loping, also. Mostly they have just been on the walker on a nearly daily basis and seem to be feeling pretty good. | |
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Regular
Posts: 76
Location: Mid-Michigan | I am LOVING this post!! I have a 5 yr old that I kept having problems with last year and I thought it was everything: back soreness, saddle fit problems, ulcers, but now that im starting to read more about PSSM im like that's got to be it!
Now my question is: for feeding I know it has to be low starch/low sugar and see that you are feeding Wellsolve LS. How does that compare with Tribute Kalm n Ez? I tried looking for ingredients online but of course WHO would want to see ingredients?? The Kalm n Ez has no corn and no molasses, but I believe does have some oats, but is mostly beet pulp.
Second: why alfalfa pellets and not timothy pellets? I have access to both at the store I work at
Also I just switched from rich alfalfa to a less nutritious alfalfa/grass mix, but im figuring that I should still get it tested anyway...
am I on the right track? Its wintertime up here in Michigan so I cant really exercise her on a regular basis but she has a small paddock attached to her stall with minimal grass.
Thanks in advance for any advice!! :)
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 Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | Oats are sugar.
The well solve is alfalfa pellets with vit and minerals and what ever else they need. I add powdered coconut oil to mine for added fat.
from what I have been reading, Timothy has more sugars.
With the beet pulp it needs to have no added molasses.
alfalfa hay is not a bad thing for some of them. Mine turns into a fire breathing dragon eating alfalfa. He gets it sparingly .
FB has a page for PSSM you can join and learn more'
Edited by roxieannie 2014-01-06 3:31 PM
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA |
There is nothing wrong with the Standlee brand Timothy Pellets from Tractor Supply. They are also low carb, but the reason I'm feeding alfalfa is because of my two having ulcer/stomach issues. I have fed the Timothy pellets/cubes also, and they did fine on them.
On the Tribute Kalm N EZ...this thread is saying it's about 14% NSC. That is not terribly high, but my mare probably wouldn't do as well on it unless she was really working hard. I try to stick as close to 10-12% as I can. Wellsove LS is around 10% if I remember correctly. Always remember that the more the grass is processed, generally the lower the sugar...so, alfalfa hay is higher in NSC than cubes, and alfalfa cubes are a little higher in NSC than pellets.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-176411.html | |
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Regular
Posts: 76
Location: Mid-Michigan | Awesome! Thanks! :) | |
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 Scorpions R Us
Posts: 9586
Location: So. Cali. | So I'm going to be a bit of a 'lazy bones' here, but was wondering for those experienced with figuring out calories/intake for your PSSM horses, would anyone be interested in figuring up my mares? I feel I have focused her diet alot on treating her as if she has PSSM due to several reasons. I had her tested for PSSM type 1 and was negative. I am however wondering if I may still be overlooking something in her diet.
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Made in the USA
Posts: 1234
Location: Cecil, Pa | My horse is on free choice hay grass/alfalfa hay mix NO green grass he is on a dry lot free choice minerals and salts, gets Timothy Pellets from Standlee because the Alfalfa is stated GMO on the FAQ's page which it is stated that is changing the first of the year.... LamineX by MVP and NutraFlax and Forco I think Less is more... I found that most everything I thought was low starch was not as the Moormans healthy glo set my horse off you have to know your horse and what they can and can not tolerate... my horse does not buck or anything but he is very skin sensitive and mystery lamenesses. I chose LamineX because it was the most bang for your buck supplement wise the only thing I do not like is Glucosamine in it but he has not had an issue so far... he was just started on this diet. I will suggest Poulins Carb is low starch and Seminole Wellness Perform Safe. | |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Three*C*Champs - 2014-01-08 9:54 PM
So I'm going to be a bit of a 'lazy bones' here, but was wondering for those experienced with figuring out calories/intake for your PSSM horses, would anyone be interested in figuring up my mares?  I feel I have focused her diet alot on treating her as if she has PSSM due to several reasons. I had her tested for PSSM type 1 and was negative. I am however wondering if I may still be overlooking something in her diet.
Â
Do you want to share what you are currently feeding? | |
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Scorpions R Us
Posts: 9586
Location: So. Cali. | annemarea - 2014-01-09 3:17 AM Three*C*Champs - 2014-01-08 9:54 PM So I'm going to be a bit of a 'lazy bones' here, but was wondering for those experienced with figuring out calories/intake for your PSSM horses, would anyone be interested in figuring up my mares? I feel I have focused her diet alot on treating her as if she has PSSM due to several reasons. I had her tested for PSSM type 1 and was negative. I am however wondering if I may still be overlooking something in her diet.
Do you want to share what you are currently feeding?
Yes, of course.
Currently she gets shredded soaked beet pulp for breakfast and dinner. About 1/3 of her diet is the shredded soaked beet pulp.
Breakfast she gets two scoops ( 2lb coffee cup size) of Sacate Pellet Mills- Standard-Bread Alfalfa Pellets. Dinner she gets two scoops of Sacate Pellet Mills- Thorough-Bread Complete Pellets.
Supplements:
1/2 cup of Vegetiable Oil Each Morning (working up to a full cup)
2oz. Aloe Vera Juice Each Morning
DMG scoop each morning
MSM scoop each morning
Vit E/Selenium Supplement each morning
Tues & Thurs she gets 2oz. of Red Cell
Mon, Wed. & Fri she gets a scoop of Total Control by Finish Line
The only thing I recently looked up and now am in question on are the pellets due to seeing on their site they have corn and cane molasses in them. It does not specify how much and by appearance I wouldnt guess molasses other than to hold them together, but can see the corn present.
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Scorpions R Us
Posts: 9586
Location: So. Cali. | Symptoms that make me think she has PSSM:
Cinchy. She has been cinchy since the day I got her off the track, actually most my off the track horses were cinchy to some degree. Worse on her days she was cycling. Recently bringing her back from the winter off, She wants to take my arm off just reaching acrossed of the cinch. I usually lightly cinch her, walk her to arena, and finish and she's usually better.
Drags her back toes. Have had her hocks done, stifles done, adjusted by chiro, etc. Drags them all over her stall, always switching weight in the backend, feels like she 'steps in a hole' when under saddle.
Spasms- Always in her stifle area. Stifles have been physically examined by several vets with none interested in further investigating on them. She gets them just standing in her stall, after rides, before rides, doesnt matter, it is not brought on by exercise, always in the same spot. Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjdxpnxsst8
Tying Up- She had one actual tying up epsiode last winter. Diet change seems to have helped prevent the random excessive sweating and any futher tying up episodes.
Backend Issues- Im always being drawn to her back end. Something always seems different, off, sore. Again, several vets have seen her. Recently did lameness exam with one where she came up sore in her right hock, she is due to be injected however.
Muscle Atrophy over shoulders- However I do believe this may have been due to ill fiting saddle I have since replaced.
Always Fit looking- Muscles are always tight and she looks inshape, even when she's been sitting.
I'm sure there is more...
Edited by Three*C*Champs 2014-01-09 10:17 AM
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Three*C*Champs - 2014-01-09 10:13 AM Symptoms that make me think she has PSSM:
Cinchy. She has been cinchy since the day I got her off the track, actually most my off the track horses were cinchy to some degree. Worse on her days she was cycling. Recently bringing her back from the winter off, She wants to take my arm off just reaching acrossed of the cinch. I usually lightly cinch her, walk her to arena, and finish and she's usually better.
Drags her back toes. Have had her hocks done, stifles done, adjusted by chiro, etc. Drags them all over her stall, always switching weight in the backend, feels like she 'steps in a hole' when under saddle.
Spasms- Always in her stifle area. Stifles have been physically examined by several vets with none interested in further investigating on them. She gets them just standing in her stall, after rides, before rides, doesnt matter, it is not brought on by exercise, always in the same spot. Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjdxpnxsst8
Tying Up- She had one actual tying up epsiode last winter. Diet change seems to have helped prevent the random excessive sweating and any futher tying up episodes.
Backend Issues- Im always being drawn to her back end. Something always seems different, off, sore. Again, several vets have seen her. Recently did lameness exam with one where she came up sore in her right hock, she is due to be injected however.
Muscle Atrophy over shoulders- However I do believe this may have been due to ill fiting saddle I have since replaced.
Always Fit looking- Muscles are always tight and she looks inshape, even when she's been sitting.
I'm sure there is more...
Sounds alot like my mare! I always knew something was "off" in her backend, but vets couldn't find anything wrong and injections didn't fix.
Ok...so I'll have to try to research your feed because I'm not familiar with it, but I can tell you that if it has corn or molasses I would not feed it. Also, the beet pulp shreds I've found usually have molasses, too. Do yours? Beet pulp alone is not bad, but lots of companies add molasses to them. I believe the Standlee brand from TSC does not have it added, but not positive.
As far as your supplements go, if you see anything in the ingredients list that ends in "OSE" such as glucose, sucrose, etc. then it has sugar in it and can affect her. You can find sugar free/filler free supplements out there, but it's a little harder. Gateway makes filler free products such as the SU-per Natural E
http://www.su-perstore.com/m7/sfeenatural--su-per-e-natural-powder.html
I know they also have DMG and others that are filler-free, but they have BOTH so make sure you look at contents....it's usually the more expensive supplement. | |
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Scorpions R Us
Posts: 9586
Location: So. Cali. | annemarea - 2014-01-09 9:49 AM Three*C*Champs - 2014-01-09 10:13 AM Symptoms that make me think she has PSSM:
Cinchy. She has been cinchy since the day I got her off the track, actually most my off the track horses were cinchy to some degree. Worse on her days she was cycling. Recently bringing her back from the winter off, She wants to take my arm off just reaching acrossed of the cinch. I usually lightly cinch her, walk her to arena, and finish and she's usually better.
Drags her back toes. Have had her hocks done, stifles done, adjusted by chiro, etc. Drags them all over her stall, always switching weight in the backend, feels like she 'steps in a hole' when under saddle.
Spasms- Always in her stifle area. Stifles have been physically examined by several vets with none interested in further investigating on them. She gets them just standing in her stall, after rides, before rides, doesnt matter, it is not brought on by exercise, always in the same spot. Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjdxpnxsst8
Tying Up- She had one actual tying up epsiode last winter. Diet change seems to have helped prevent the random excessive sweating and any futher tying up episodes.
Backend Issues- Im always being drawn to her back end. Something always seems different, off, sore. Again, several vets have seen her. Recently did lameness exam with one where she came up sore in her right hock, she is due to be injected however.
Muscle Atrophy over shoulders- However I do believe this may have been due to ill fiting saddle I have since replaced.
Always Fit looking- Muscles are always tight and she looks inshape, even when she's been sitting.
I'm sure there is more...
Ok...so I'll have to try to research your feed because I'm not familiar with it, but I can tell you that if it has corn or molasses I would not feed it. Also, the beet pulp shreds I've found usually have molasses, too. Do yours? Beet pulp alone is not bad, but lots of companies add molasses to them. I believe the Standlee brand from TSC does not have it added, but not positive.
As far as your supplements go, if you see anything in the ingredients list that ends in "OSE" such as glucose, sucrose, etc. then it has sugar in it and can affect her. You can find sugar free/filler free supplements out there, but it's a little harder. Gateway makes filler free products such as the SU-per Natural E
http://www.su-perstore.com/m7/sfeenatural--su-per-e-natural-powder.html
I know they also have DMG and others that are filler-free, but they have BOTH so make sure you look at contents....it's usually the more expensive supplement.
THANK YOU! I have scanned thru my supplements. Disapointed to see the Vitamin E/Selenium by Farnam that I currently have her on also has cane molasses in it.
So does this mean glucosamine is bad for PSSM horses? Its in the Total Control, and I give Actyl-D-Glucosmine shots to her during the season....
I will have to check our bags of Beet Pulp tonight. For the life of me I can not think of the brand.
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Three*C*Champs - 2014-01-09 12:15 PM annemarea - 2014-01-09 9:49 AM Three*C*Champs - 2014-01-09 10:13 AM Symptoms that make me think she has PSSM:
Cinchy. She has been cinchy since the day I got her off the track, actually most my off the track horses were cinchy to some degree. Worse on her days she was cycling. Recently bringing her back from the winter off, She wants to take my arm off just reaching acrossed of the cinch. I usually lightly cinch her, walk her to arena, and finish and she's usually better.
Drags her back toes. Have had her hocks done, stifles done, adjusted by chiro, etc. Drags them all over her stall, always switching weight in the backend, feels like she 'steps in a hole' when under saddle.
Spasms- Always in her stifle area. Stifles have been physically examined by several vets with none interested in further investigating on them. She gets them just standing in her stall, after rides, before rides, doesnt matter, it is not brought on by exercise, always in the same spot. Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjdxpnxsst8
Tying Up- She had one actual tying up epsiode last winter. Diet change seems to have helped prevent the random excessive sweating and any futher tying up episodes.
Backend Issues- Im always being drawn to her back end. Something always seems different, off, sore. Again, several vets have seen her. Recently did lameness exam with one where she came up sore in her right hock, she is due to be injected however.
Muscle Atrophy over shoulders- However I do believe this may have been due to ill fiting saddle I have since replaced.
Always Fit looking- Muscles are always tight and she looks inshape, even when she's been sitting.
I'm sure there is more...
Ok...so I'll have to try to research your feed because I'm not familiar with it, but I can tell you that if it has corn or molasses I would not feed it. Also, the beet pulp shreds I've found usually have molasses, too. Do yours? Beet pulp alone is not bad, but lots of companies add molasses to them. I believe the Standlee brand from TSC does not have it added, but not positive.
As far as your supplements go, if you see anything in the ingredients list that ends in "OSE" such as glucose, sucrose, etc. then it has sugar in it and can affect her. You can find sugar free/filler free supplements out there, but it's a little harder. Gateway makes filler free products such as the SU-per Natural E
http://www.su-perstore.com/m7/sfeenatural--su-per-e-natural-powder.html
I know they also have DMG and others that are filler-free, but they have BOTH so make sure you look at contents....it's usually the more expensive supplement.
So does this mean glucosamine is bad for PSSM horses? Its in the Total Control, and I give Actyl-D-Glucosmine shots to her during the season....
I will have to check our bags of Beet Pulp tonight. For the life of me I can not think of the brand.
The PSSM forum on facebook would be a great place to ask about the glucosamine. I give my horses Adequan and they do fine on that. I'm not sure how the body processes those oral supplements, so I'll see what I can find out for you.
Most supplements do come in a sugar base! LOL So, when you have a horse that is symptomatic it is best to eleminate all sources of sugars that you can until you get them feeling right. Then, if you have to add, do it one supplement at a time and see if you get a change. I just buy the filler-free supplements so that is one less thing to worry about.
As far as your feed goes, I contacted the feed company and they do not test for NSC's. That's crazy, but maybe they are a small company? But again, any sources of molasses or corn, I would eliminate. | |
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