brlracerchick - 2013-07-06 10:22 AM When they do eat grass, when do you start to notice symptoms? 

annemarea - 2013-07-06 9:55 AM  Both of mine did somewhat improve while still on grass, but made major headway once taken off of pasture. That seemed to make the biggest difference. Again, with grasses the sugar levels will greatly fluctuate with seasons, drought, etc. Early morning grass will have its lowest NSC, while late evening grass will have its highest NSC. I tried using a grazing muzzle and even 1-2 hour/day turnout for my mare , but her symptoms would return. I finally just built her a pen to dry lot her with free choice hay. When I put the gelding in with her, he finally began to stand still to be groomed and saddled. So, I know my grass must be pretty high in NSC's.

Three 4 Luck - 2013-07-06 10:56 AM


 I always plant ryegrass in the fall and I know that stuff is very high in sugar. My native summer grass is touted as being good for weight gain in cattle, so I bet it's high in sugar as well.  I couldn't stand him on grain. He did much better on Patriot Sr with Healthy Glo added. I always thought it was because he was ulcer prone. I never did figure out why he would seem to be coming on as a barrel horse and then regress, and he perpetually acted body sore, hated grooming.  I couldn't get him to run out of the 4d even tho he was fully capable of being a winner.  He didn't seem to have the want-to to go faster.  It made me sick when I sold him because I had him so stinkin broke and fun to just ride around--I had invested 3 years in him, but slow is not my thing.  Maybe this info will help his new owner.  When she first bought him, he didn't get ridden for the first week and then acted pretty nasty his first ride back which was out of character for him as a mature horse, or at least it was after I switched his feed more than 2 years prior. I'm not sure what they fed him, but it all fits. 

perfectturns - 2013-07-06 12:08 PM Thank you for posting this! I have been trying to figure out what was wrong with my 4 year old for a long time. She has all of the symptoms and now I feel terrible for getting after her when she was misbehaving due to being in pain. She has even gotten to the point where I can't catch her in a 12 X 12 stall and just doesn't want to be messed with. I'm looking forward to changing her diet and hopefully seeing a change in her. annemarea, what do you suggest I start with?

rodeoveteran - 2013-07-06 1:00 PM

I owned my mare for 5 years before she actually tied up and my vet suggested tha she had PSSM. I was already familiar with it through a friend with a severe case. Never suspected it in my horse tho'. As I changed her feed program and began to see improvement, her history began to make more sense. She was always sensitive to brushing her back, she absolutely refused to "give her chin" (which in turn streatches her back muscles), and constantly battling lamenesses we could not find the source of.

Add to all of this, I battled her ovaries for 7 years. After her PSSM "diagnosis" (she has never been tested), it made the fiinal decision to spay her much easier. She is out of a pretty in demand bloodline and I had been trying to breed her to sort out her ovary issues. I decided that responsible thing to do was NOT to pass on this genetic condition.

The one thing I have not been able to bring myself to do is take her completely off of grass. My horses get 4-8 hours of grass if and when we have it. She does not take being isolated from the herd very well.....sigh

Funny thing is when I DID have her at a trainer's she actually improved as she was stall kept (and ridden most days) and on a pelleted feed rather than grain I'm guessing that the feed was probably lower startch than she had been getting. He also comented that she was worse with time off and better when worked every day. Sound familiar?

Barnmom - 2013-07-06 1:10 PM Annemarea, did you find that your horses seemed to ride "up" instead of "down" before the diet change?  The longer you stayed on them the more amped up they got, always seemed ready to explode even when you got them tired? 

rodeoveteran - 2013-07-06 2:09 PM Actually, my mare can get SUPER lazy and the one I used to have that got "amped" up got no benefit from the feed change. There was no return from an adrenaline charge unless you had a LOT of stamina...and I never had that much. I have Fibromyalgia, so I have always equated the two in my mind as far as what it is like, tho the causes are different. I am wondering if taking her completely off of grass would "cure" her stupidity about going back to the trailer. I hauled her with another horse two days in a row, and she got SO stupid she turned dangerous. She ended up slamming in to the side of another horse and rider and IT went off bucking, despite my best efforts to control her. (Contolling her "out of control" is like trying t control a bus! She is a BIG girl!). It would be VERY hard on me to not tuen her out on grass with the rest of the herd. Horses were made to eat grass.....sigh....

bingo - 2013-07-06 5:24 PM I too had my horse 'hair tested" through the AQHA. He too came up negative but I bet he would be positive if muscle biopsy was performed. I modified his diet a long time ago and it is what makes the difference along w/good quality daily exercise, and staying off grass IS A MUST. It seems whenever man gets in the way of mother nature, like when we take over it's breeding programs, things get messed up eventually. I sure hope we get accurate information on what blood lines are carrying these genes so we stop breeding them.

appycowgirl - 2013-07-07 12:52 PM Also, along these lines I would aslo like to talk about MH (Malignant Hyperthermia). This is another dominant genetic disease and the researchers have stated that it comes from two lines in the QH industry and is found in less then 1% of the QH and QH related populations. MH can kill your horse as it can cause them to overheat while under certain types of anesthesia and there has been reports of horses dying out on pasture or one stud who over heated and died while breeding a mare or horses becoming overheated and dying while being exercised or shown. MH can also cause a horse to tie up as well. So far, on the Forum, we had one lady who reported that her gelding, who was positive for PSSM was also positive for MH. Then, I had another pedigree that was shared with me of a stud, no longer in breeding service, who was negative for PSSM1, but was positive for MH. Now, both this gelding and the stud goes back onto one of the bloodlines that was pedigree mapped by the University of MN. The gelding traces back to Eddie Cinco (Eddie x Miss Ogallala) and the stud traces back to Eddie 60 (Eddie x Miss Ogallala). These two studs, Eddie Cinco and Eddie 60 are full brothers and in one of the research papers on MH, the researchers states that it is a subset of a family that was being researched. Also, on the research paper that does pedigree map EC, SDB and PI, on Eddie Cinco's pedigree mapping, they do have an arrow pointed at his dam, Miss Ogallala and the researchers state that where there is an arrow, it says that there is witness accounts that talk about the behaviour and problems with the horse that makes the researchers believe that this was probably a positive horse. I strongly suspect that this cross of Eddie x Ms Ogallala is one of the two sources of MH and I would highly recommend that anyone who has this in their horse's bloodlines, do a test for MH if you only plan to do the PSSM Type 1 DNA test. If you are doing Animal Genetics or AQHA's 5 panel test, then MH is covered in the 5 panel test. Animal Genetics cost is $95 for the 5 panel and the AQHA's 5 panel test cost is $85.