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Expert
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| ride n slide - 2013-12-11 2:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave.
I think you have hit the nai l right on the head.You and everyone who breeds has had this same thought .
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:16 PM Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days.
So next question, if there is no way to tell the difference in cloned or original.....and there is no difference in the colt born...what difference does it make?
Although I have read several articles that clearly explain how the DNA can be identified as from cloned animal or original animal, but it's expensive and would have to be performed on every straw that went out. Not very likely.
There will be those that will (and have) found a way to cheat. So a registeration seperate from AQHA or part of AQHA would at least give them incentive to do it correctly and legally.
The curiosity to me is not if they can read the DNA of the donar, but if they can tell a difference in the foals DNA.
Isn't there a story that Easy Jet was possibly not sired by Jet Deck but by Iron Bird? There was some question about this and I have read that it was fairly common in the old days for breders to name the wrong sires. I have no idea if that's true, but I have read a few books and even read people here talking about "hearing" about it back in the day.
Edited by Swannranch 2013-12-11 8:22 PM
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 Chicken Chick
Posts: 3562
Location: Texas | aqhabarrelchic1 - 2013-12-10 7:11 PM
There was a reason it was gelded...did it have a bad mind crooked legs? And nor aqha needs to leave tx
The reason could also be that the person didn't have the time, facilities, know how, or want to... to handle a stallion. So gelding solved all of their problems. It could be no fault to the horse that it was gelded, just sort of wrong place wrong time. Before my colt was born I knew that if it was a colt I was gelding him. Had nothing to do with him, I just don't want a stud and probably never will. So any horse that goes through my hands will be a gelding, or gelded shortly after I get it. | |
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  Extreme Veteran
Posts: 459
Location: La Vernia, TX | What this is all leading to...is the elephant in the room:
Have Breed Associations have outlived their relevance?
While a fraction of the community participate in breed Shows, the majority of the money that drives the horse industry is made in events (reining, cutting, racing) most of which happen through other organizations.
If you look at AQHA, APHA, or ApHC, - the reining horses look NOTHING like the hunters, yet they claim to be the same breed. No. There is ZERO "breed type" in any of these breeds, so really- what is the point?
Form follows function, and indeed it is. | |
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 Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | Phoenix98 - 2013-12-11 9:29 PM What this is all leading to...is the elephant in the room: Have Breed Associations have outlived their relevance? While a fraction of the community participate in breed Shows, the majority of the money that drives the horse industry is made in events (reining, cutting, racing) most of which happen through other organizations. If you look at AQHA, APHA, or ApHC, - the reining horses look NOTHING like the hunters, yet they claim to be the same breed. No. There is ZERO "breed type" in any of these breeds, so really- what is the point? Form follows function, and indeed it is.
agreed | |
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| Good current topic! I just have to comment on something. People in the horse business cheat, lie, WHAT? Are you kidding? Sorry, but it was too funny when I read that. Ever hear of the term "Horse Trader", or Horse jockey used in a derogatory way? As for registering the clones, why not? If they have a way to prove the lineage w/DNA there may be better horses out there from the past that can actually better the bred. | |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | I have to say, I was a bit intrigued to hear a Clayton foal come into the pen being announced as being sired by Gills Bay Boy tonight. | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | WrapSnap - 2013-12-11 10:42 PM I have to say, I was a bit intrigued to hear a Clayton foal come into the pen being announced as being sired by Gills Bay Boy tonight.
jmo, but i tend to think that's a little deceiving....... | |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | dhdqhllc - 2013-12-11 10:51 PM
WrapSnap - 2013-12-11 10:42 PM I have to say, I was a bit intrigued to hear a Clayton foal come into the pen being announced as being sired by Gills Bay Boy tonight.
jmo, but i tend to think that's a little deceiving.......
it was definitely the way they announced the pedigree info. Alan then commented that he hadn't been aware that the clones could have the original's name. | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | WrapSnap - 2013-12-11 11:23 PM dhdqhllc - 2013-12-11 10:51 PM WrapSnap - 2013-12-11 10:42 PM I have to say, I was a bit intrigued to hear a Clayton foal come into the pen being announced as being sired by Gills Bay Boy tonight. jmo, but i tend to think that's a little deceiving....... it was definitely the way they announced the pedigree info. Alan then commented that he hadn't been aware that the clones could have the original's name.
it's not like everyone doesn't know Clayton.....i just don't think it's the marketing tactic i would take......maybe once his offspring have more success they will announce the sire as the legendary producer Clayton.... | |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: La Vernia, TX | yeah...that's not cool. If anything, it should just be "Gils Bay Boy Clone" | |
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Expert
Posts: 2121
Location: The Great Northwest | I will agree that wasn't an igonant opinion. We all are welcomed to state our opinion. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 208
| Swannranch - 2013-12-11 9:19 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:16 PM Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days.
So next question, if there is no way to tell the difference in cloned or original.....and there is no difference in the colt born...what difference does it make?
Although I have read several articles that clearly explain how the DNA can be identified as from cloned animal or original animal, but it's expensive and would have to be performed on every straw that went out. Not very likely.
There will be those that will (and have) found a way to cheat. So a registeration seperate from AQHA or part of AQHA would at least give them incentive to do it correctly and legally.
The curiosity to me is not if they can read the DNA of the donar, but if they can tell a difference in the foals DNA.
Isn't there a story that Easy Jet was possibly not sired by Jet Deck but by Iron Bird? There was some question about this and I have read that it was fairly common in the old days for breders to name the wrong sires. I have no idea if that's true, but I have read a few books and even read people here talking about "hearing" about it back in the day.
My point was that DNA can't tell the difference. As to the clone being just as good and "so what" if its not the original proven sire, clones don't just automatically produce carbon copies of the original super star. Just ask people like Phil Rapp who has some cloned horse that aren't worth a fraction of the original because their performance has been dismal and disappointing. There's a reason so many clones are never trained. Too much to prove. | |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | ride n slide - 2013-12-12 10:10 PM Swannranch - 2013-12-11 9:19 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:16 PM Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days.
So next question, if there is no way to tell the difference in cloned or original.....and there is no difference in the colt born...what difference does it make?
Although I have read several articles that clearly explain how the DNA can be identified as from cloned animal or original animal, but it's expensive and would have to be performed on every straw that went out. Not very likely.
There will be those that will (and have) found a way to cheat. So a registeration seperate from AQHA or part of AQHA would at least give them incentive to do it correctly and legally.
The curiosity to me is not if they can read the DNA of the donar, but if they can tell a difference in the foals DNA.
Isn't there a story that Easy Jet was possibly not sired by Jet Deck but by Iron Bird? There was some question about this and I have read that it was fairly common in the old days for breders to name the wrong sires. I have no idea if that's true, but I have read a few books and even read people here talking about "hearing" about it back in the day.
I agree, but every sire throws duds. Some are great, others...not so much. Depending on the number of get, No stud bats a thousand.
So if a colt by a famous stud and a colt by a clone are genetically identical. . . (sire's side) what is the difference? So registration (not necessarily AQHA) would be incentive to register then and stay honest. No registration could be a reason to sell as an original in stead of being honest.
As far as announcing Gills Bay Boy as the sire, hmmmm perhaps there is no other way to list them at this time. Technically, he is genetically the same animal...sort of just in a test tube to receive seman. If anyone ever registers Clones, the lineage will be interesting, but I think the parentage needs an addendium in the name.
How did he do?
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Swannranch - 2013-12-11 6:19 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:16 PM Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days.
So next question, if there is no way to tell the difference in cloned or original.....and there is no difference in the colt born...what difference does it make?
Although I have read several articles that clearly explain how the DNA can be identified as from cloned animal or original animal, but it's expensive and would have to be performed on every straw that went out. Not very likely.
There will be those that will (and have) found a way to cheat. So a registeration seperate from AQHA or part of AQHA would at least give them incentive to do it correctly and legally.
The curiosity to me is not if they can read the DNA of the donar, but if they can tell a difference in the foals DNA.
Isn't there a story that Easy Jet was possibly not sired by Jet Deck but by Iron Bird? There was some question about this and I have read that it was fairly common in the old days for breders to name the wrong sires. I have no idea if that's true, but I have read a few books and even read people here talking about "hearing" about it back in the day.
Easy Jet was foaled in 1967. Iron Bird was foaled in 1973.  | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | OregonBR - 2013-12-13 11:29 AM Swannranch - 2013-12-11 6:19 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:16 PM Mighty Broke - 2013-12-11 3:07 PM ride n slide - 2013-12-11 3:01 PM I like the idea of having those bloodlines such as Scampers again, but can't help but wonder if some breeders aren't going to abuse the system. Example, say you have a big time stallion still alive with clones already produced. This is already happening. If you pay for an expensive breeeding to the said big name stallion , what's to keep them from sending you semen of the clone? No way to prove it ISN'T the big name stallion's semen. I'd like to think people would be honest and not do that but have seen too many crooks to be niave. This is strictly a hypothetical and not meant to be true.
BUT, Frenchmans Guy could be sterile and they could be collecting off a clone and who would ever know. AGAIN, I am not saying this is happening or accusing anyone---just an example.
As for the law and the government ruling, there was already anti-trust laws in effect in Texas and when a company violates them, this is what happens. I don't like big brother overstepping bounds, but existing laws cannot be broken. This same ruling happened during the beginning of the embryo transfer days.
So next question, if there is no way to tell the difference in cloned or original.....and there is no difference in the colt born...what difference does it make?
Although I have read several articles that clearly explain how the DNA can be identified as from cloned animal or original animal, but it's expensive and would have to be performed on every straw that went out. Not very likely.
There will be those that will (and have) found a way to cheat. So a registeration seperate from AQHA or part of AQHA would at least give them incentive to do it correctly and legally.
The curiosity to me is not if they can read the DNA of the donar, but if they can tell a difference in the foals DNA.
Isn't there a story that Easy Jet was possibly not sired by Jet Deck but by Iron Bird? There was some question about this and I have read that it was fairly common in the old days for breders to name the wrong sires. I have no idea if that's true, but I have read a few books and even read people here talking about "hearing" about it back in the day.
haven't you ever heard of time travel??? | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Tricky semen. It brings the clone discussion to a whole new high. lol
It's not that I'm disputing that people lie, commit fraud, etc... I've seen it with my own eyes. I'm sure the insiders at AQHA could tell us some stories about horses that don't have the right parentage to match their DNA. But what are you going to do? I'm supposing they decided to let sleeping dogs lie (sp?) and go forward with keeping people honest in the present.
Back to the topic: The semen from a clone vs the original. The MtDNA won't be present on/in the semen. MtDNA comes from the shell of the egg. There is no way to tell the difference after the semen is in the can or results in a foal.  | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | OregonBR - 2013-12-13 11:56 AM Tricky semen. It brings the clone discussion to a whole new high. lol
It's not that I'm disputing that people lie, commit fraud, etc... I've seen it with my own eyes. I'm sure the insiders at AQHA could tell us some stories about horses that don't have the right parentage to match their DNA. But what are you going to do? I'm supposing they decided to let sleeping dogs lie (sp?) and go forward with keeping people honest in the present.
Back to the topic: The semen from a clone vs the original. The MtDNA won't be present on/in the semen. MtDNA comes from the shell of the egg. There is no way to tell the difference after the semen is in the can or results in a foal.
there would be a way to 'tag' the semen but that is an expensive proposition......but along that line, you should be able to track the mtDA in a cloned mares offspring..... | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | dhdqhllc - 2013-12-13 10:14 AM OregonBR - 2013-12-13 11:56 AM Tricky semen. It brings the clone discussion to a whole new high. lol
It's not that I'm disputing that people lie, commit fraud, etc... I've seen it with my own eyes. I'm sure the insiders at AQHA could tell us some stories about horses that don't have the right parentage to match their DNA. But what are you going to do? I'm supposing they decided to let sleeping dogs lie (sp?) and go forward with keeping people honest in the present.
Back to the topic: The semen from a clone vs the original. The MtDNA won't be present on/in the semen. MtDNA comes from the shell of the egg. There is no way to tell the difference after the semen is in the can or results in a foal.
Foals out of a cloned mare would have some differences in the MtDNA if the egg was from a different mare. But if the egg was from the original mare, it would be impossible to tell the difference between her own foals and her clones foals.  | |
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Always Off Topic
Posts: 6382
Location: ND | OregonBR - 2013-12-13 12:22 PM dhdqhllc - 2013-12-13 10:14 AM OregonBR - 2013-12-13 11:56 AM Tricky semen. It brings the clone discussion to a whole new high. lol
It's not that I'm disputing that people lie, commit fraud, etc... I've seen it with my own eyes. I'm sure the insiders at AQHA could tell us some stories about horses that don't have the right parentage to match their DNA. But what are you going to do? I'm supposing they decided to let sleeping dogs lie (sp?) and go forward with keeping people honest in the present.
Back to the topic: The semen from a clone vs the original. The MtDNA won't be present on/in the semen. MtDNA comes from the shell of the egg. There is no way to tell the difference after the semen is in the can or results in a foal.
thus proving that all the DNA came from the cloned horse.....hmmm....a 'true' clone.... | |
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