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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
   
Location: Texas | I don't have issues with people who inject to make a horse comfortable or to keep them at a certain level of competition. Horses can need injections without being lame.
My issue with riding lame horses are the ones who are chronically lame, where the person isn't trying to rectify it, or rides them with a noticeable lameness and just chocks it up to being the way the horse is.
I think if you have a lame horse, you need to eliminate/manage the pain if you want to ride them or make them work. if the pain can't be eliminated or managed, they probably don't need to be riding or working. |
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  Ms. Manners
Posts: 1820
 
Location: Oklahoma | In reference to whether it is ethical to give a horse painkillers in order to go on a light ride, I personally would not. Chronic pain is a sign that there is a problem and covering up the symptom does not take care of the underlying issue. When a horse is given pain meds to go for a ride, how are we to know what additional damage is being done due to the horse getting relief and feeling better. It may not be immediate damage either, but a more gradual worsening of the underlying problem that would not have occured had the animal not been ridden. Giving a horse pain meds and going for a trail ride is different from giving one at pasture some meds to ease it's discomfort.
As for running a barrel horse on injections, I'm not sure there is any extreme athlete out there who does not do some sort of preventive therapy. A horseman needs to be in tune with their horse and know when enough is enough. Most of our horses will keep going on three legs for us, and it's our job to do what is best for their health and welfare. |
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 Night Watchman
Posts: 5516
Location: Central Montana | There are all kinds of lame. I think it depends on how comfortable the horse can be and how much you plan on doing with it. If people want to point fingers then a lot would be pointing back at themselves when they are injecting, drugging - banamine, bute etc., ect. to keep their horse competiting. |
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 A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | It depends on why you bute/banamine. If it's something minor, like sore from a sole bruise or ouchy from a fresh trim, that's one thing. Buting bc the horse is in extreme pain, or running the horse while it's still on muscle relaxers or has an OBVIOUS injury is another. I don't agree with that.
Or running a horse that is obviously lame and CONTINUING to do so without caring at all about the horse's well being.
If your gut says it doesn't feel right, then don't do it. Personally, I'm paranoid of making anything worse, even a bruise or something minor. I wouldn't ride at all if a horse was off in any way.
Injections are a hot topic. Personally if they're more of a maintenance thing and only needed once or twice a year that's one thing. If you need injections every few months just to keep a horse sound in the pasture, that's another.
Edited by hlynn 2013-12-16 10:17 PM
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 Dr. Ruth
Posts: 9891
Location: Blissfully happy Giants fan!!! | I have had two scenarios and one was just like you. My mom had a mare that visibly limped on one of her front legs. We had her to the vet I don't know how many times but never could anyone figure out what was wrong with her. And she would come running and ran in the pasture, never went off feed, and was healthy every other way.
We did ride her but never for more than 15 minutes and it was very infrequent-mostly when we had people come over that needed to be babysat. And she never was worse limp wise before, during, or after. It bothered my mom so much that she only could take her limping for about a year or so and then she put her down. She just felt she was in pain even though we couldn't prove it except for the limp.
Grasshopper is my other story. He is a cripple. He does not move 100% sound. Does he limp? No but he doesn't stride out like a normal horse. He doesn't have arthritis (yet) but I am sure it is coming. The vet cleared him to be ridden. I am never getting on him again but I have let a 10 year old get on him at the playday. That dam! horse tried to run all of the patterns and that poor kid had to hold him back the entire time!!!
I will say this about Hops. When he had his accident Dr. Tanner asked what I wanted. I told him I wanted him to live but if he couldn't do that pain free then we needed to put him down. Dr. Tanner whole heartedly believes he lives almost 100% pain free. But when the day comes that that statement is not true, I will not let him suffer. I am ok with that decision and quite frankly, I have already had a full year of having him back with me which is more than I thought I would. |
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 Expert
Posts: 5293
| I had a horse with navicular and he had his coffin joint and Bursa Injected to stay sound and compete. THat lasted about 2 years. He still loved to compete. I finished the last 3 races of 2012 on him and had to resort to 10cc Ketophen and bute to run him sound. I was first in the standings then I promised him after the last race that when he was done, saddle off, it would never go back on, even for trail riding, kids etc. I lived up to my word. He lived on daily previcox for another year and then it started to not work so I had him put down. I have SEEN people run grade 4 ( ALmost packing a leg) horses at barrel races and they have their vet block out the foot 15 minutes before they run. THats rediculous. |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | I think it depends on the problem and the riding
there is a big difference between giving an arthritic horse some bute to walk some flat trails for a day and blocking a three-legged one to go run a pattern |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | I don't believe the answer will ever be black and white. There is no 100% wrong or right because every horse and owner is an individual and each situation is unique. It is a judgement call hence there can be 9999999999999999999 gazillion answers. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 733
| Are these horses getting regular trimming and/or shoeing? If a horse is to the point that they are pointing their toe I do not like to ride them, even with drugs. Nothing makes me more sick than when I walk by a trailer and see a horse pointing its toe while tied up, then later you see ppl running it and it is clearly lame. BUT if you have lame horse and you want to ride it please give it pain killers which it sounds like you are doing. My good horse required previcox and coffin joint injections to run, she was not toe pointing lame and most people probably wouldn't even notice she was off. Since I have done Tildren though I only have to give Previcox if I am going to be hauling for along time, haven't had to do any injections. If she needs something else injected I will do it. She also gets her front feet reset every 3-4 weeks. When you trot him does he bob his head pretty bad? Is he worse on soft or hard ground? IDK that is a tough one with the gelding, if you are breeding horses (mentioned the mare is now a broodmare) I would probably get rid of him and focus on one of your colts. Personally I would be careful breeding a mare with soundness problems, some of it can be hereditary.
Edited by Rope-N-Run 2013-12-17 9:21 AM
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 Ditch the Stirrups
Posts: 5369
Location: Sorrow Not! Defending against workplace bullies | Just to share my lameness story in the hope it might help. I have a wonderful gelding who has flat sensitive feet. He was off occasionally as a 4 yr old but pads fixed it. he could not stand even small pebbles in an arena. He lost a shoe and kicked a rock and fractured his coffin bone at 6 yrs old. the fracture was almost impossible to see on xray. At that time he was lame at a trot under saddle and sometimes at a walk in the pasture. He healed after stall rest for 3 months. If I would have been riding him he would never have healed. He then was lame AGAIN due to long toes. My vet suggested different shoeing and he is now perfectly sound and ready to race! I am glad I did not give up on him. I was afraid I would have to put him down if he did not heal. The stall rest was VERY difficult. I suspect he may have arthritis later on but I would not hesitate to ride an arthritic horse with bute since riding helps arthritis.
The answer to your question depends on the situation. Getting a diagnosis from a good lameness vet is most important. |
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 Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Rope-N-Run - 2013-12-17 8:17 AM
Are these horses getting regular trimming and/or shoeing? If a horse is to the point that they are pointing their toe I do not like to ride them, even with drugs. Nothing makes me more sick than when I walk by a trailer and see a horse pointing its toe while tied up, then later you see ppl running it and it is clearly lame. BUT if you have lame horse and you want to ride it please give it pain killers which it sounds like you are doing. My good horse required previcox and coffin joint injections to run, she was not toe pointing lame and most people probably wouldn't even notice she was off. Since I have done Tildren though I only have to give Previcox if I am going to be hauling for along time, haven't had to do any injections. If she needs something else injected I will do it. She also gets her front feet reset every 3-4 weeks. When you trot him does he bob his head pretty bad? Is he worse on soft or hard ground? IDK that is a tough one with the gelding, if you are breeding horses (mentioned the mare is now a broodmare) I would probably get rid of him and focus on one of your colts. Personally I would be careful breeding a mare with soundness problems, some of it can be hereditary.
I believe you are talking to me... :) Though I DO appreciate the intent behind the advice, I am not asking for advice, only using those horses as examples. I do not own the gelding, and am not putting any more money into getting my mare sound. ONLY using them as examples for discussion purposes, to help get the topic going & people's minds thinking of different scenerios. :) |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | My question is "In your opinion, is it ETHICAL?" :) |
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Here's another example- a registered, "well bred", very well broke mare who is so crooked legged she hits her legs together & makes them bleed when being ridden (while in the pasture, she walks slow & doesn't hit herself much). She has a great temperament, & is loving life. (IMO, it is ethical to ride her ONLY if she is booted all around. IMO it is unethical to ride her without boots, or to breed her. Her owner decided to breed her. Seriously. To a crooked legged, unbroke stallion. Sigh.)
Edited by Blaundee 2013-12-17 10:19 AM
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Keep those crap slapping tails away!
Posts: 8871
Location: Around here somewhere... | Yet another example- a grade, middle aged gelding, with laminitis, navicular, & other issues in both of his front feet. (He was doped when the owner bought him- another reason to get vet checks before you buy). He has had multiple visits to the vet, xrays, treatments, shoes/barefoot/you name it. Vet & owner decided for him to go ahead & be ridden (in mountain trails)... he has easyboots, pads inside the easyboots, whatever treatment/shoes/etc that is being tried at the time, and a dose of bute or banamine. (IMO, it is not unethical to ride him.)
Edited by Blaundee 2013-12-17 10:25 AM
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Ditch the Stirrups
Posts: 5369
Location: Sorrow Not! Defending against workplace bullies | IMO it is unethical if riding causes further damage. To know that you have to know what is wrong with the horse. And IMO it is unethical to breed a horse with lameness problems. ! |
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Regular
Posts: 87
| Sorry, don't want to steal your thread, but I haven't seen a whole lot of answers about what do you do with a mildly lame horse? I have one like that (he has arthritis in his fetlock and hocks) I feel guilty leaving them out in the pasture when he loves to work, but it's too hard on him to be my tough competitive barrel or pole horse. So what do you do with them??? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 721
Location: The Great West | jaydenw - 2013-12-17 8:10 PM Sorry, don't want to steal your thread, but I haven't seen a whole lot of answers about what do you do with a mildly lame horse? I have one like that (he has arthritis in his fetlock and hocks) I feel guilty leaving them out in the pasture when he loves to work, but it's too hard on him to be my tough competitive barrel or pole horse. So what do you do with them???
My sons (6) horse is mildly lame. You don't notice it when he's in the pasture or in a soft arena, but if he takes him on a long trail ride on rough rocky ground or trail cows down a gravel road he needs a couple grams of brute. If my husband or I where to ride him he would be uncomfortable. Lucky for him he's a kid safe/mother approved or he'd probably be put down. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 733
| Blaundee - 2013-12-18 7:42 AM
Rope-N-Run - 2013-12-17 8:17 AM
Are these horses getting regular trimming and/or shoeing? If a horse is to the point that they are pointing their toe I do not like to ride them, even with drugs. Nothing makes me more sick than when I walk by a trailer and see a horse pointing its toe while tied up, then later you see ppl running it and it is clearly lame. BUT if you have lame horse and you want to ride it please give it pain killers which it sounds like you are doing. My good horse required previcox and coffin joint injections to run, she was not toe pointing lame and most people probably wouldn't even notice she was off. Since I have done Tildren though I only have to give Previcox if I am going to be hauling for along time, haven't had to do any injections. If she needs something else injected I will do it. She also gets her front feet reset every 3-4 weeks. When you trot him does he bob his head pretty bad? Is he worse on soft or hard ground? IDK that is a tough one with the gelding, if you are breeding horses (mentioned the mare is now a broodmare) I would probably get rid of him and focus on one of your colts. Personally I would be careful breeding a mare with soundness problems, some of it can be hereditary.
I believe you are talking to me... : ) Though I DO appreciate the intent behind the advice, I am not asking for advice, only using those horses as examples. I do not own the gelding, and am not putting any more money into getting my mare sound. ONLY using them as examples for discussion purposes, to help get the topic going & people's minds thinking of different scenerios. : )
yes it is a hard question to answer with out knowing the back story, is it unethical to ride a lame horse that could be sound with a few preventive measures or different shoeing, yes IMO it is because it could be easily fixed. It is unethical to trail ride a horse that is COMFORTABLE in the pasture not being ridden, and you give him bute or banamine when you do ride him, and there is nothing you can do to fix the problem, no IMO that is not unethical personally I would prob give previcox because I think it is easier on them but that is a personal preference. However, again IMO, when a horse is lame enough that they are pointing they are not comfortable that is why he is pointing his foot because it hurts to stand on it normally. Hope that answers the question you are asking, its just kind of complicated there a lot of variable and alot of the time subtle lameness can be fixed with proper shoeing or trimming and those horses require being reset more often they can not get long. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1062
Location: Probably On the Road to the Next Barrel Race! | Blaundee - 2013-12-16 7:31 PM
Or, what about a horse who has to have injections in his joints in order to run barrels? Is that in your opinion ethical?
Are you serious?? I can't believe any barrel racer of any serious nature would even ASK that question! When joints are injected, pain is relieved. I don't have any problem running a pain-free horse. God put horses here for us to use and enjoy. Are you with PETA or something? There is nothing unethical about riding a horse that's been injected. The AQHA doesn't have an issue with it, why on earth do YOU? |
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 Expert
Posts: 1261
| I think it depends on why the horse is lame.
Some things that cause lameness are helped by movement or even "trauma" to the area. Some things it would only serve to cause the horse pain and or slow healing. I would always consult a vet or maybe even multiple vets and do what they recommended. |
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