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  The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
   
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | wyoming barrel racer - 2014-01-05 3:40 PM Anniemae - 2014-01-05 3:11 PM wyoming barrel racer - 2014-01-05 1:07 PM RunNitroRun - 2014-01-05 1:56 PM I agree with the above post. The five panel doesn't test for PSSM2. We did the Five panel and horse came back negative. She tied up again so went ahead with the biopsy and she's PSSM2 postive. Lots of money spent and we knew she wasn't HYPP or HERDA by her breeding but thought PSSM. Hopefully they find a way to test for PSSM2 without a biopsy. That is exactly my issue with the required 5 panel. I don't raise horses that will ever have HYPP or Herda. I have never had one that had PSSM or any other genetic trait that I know of. We ride hard in the summer but give them a lot of time off in the winter. If they were to tie up, I imagine we would have come across it. I did years ago have a ranch bred broodmare that was cinchy at first and went to Two Eyed Jack. Knowing what I do now, I would suspect she "could" have had PSSM 1 or 2. he would have been spayed if we had known. Her babies were awful so we sold her. I think they have a lot of studying to do before they get this genetic BS all under control. But requiring a person to test stallions/mares and then NOT doing a dang thing if they find positive is stupid. I, as a breeder, would be more than happy to geld/spay if a positive was found. It is the only way to better the breed and eliminate this crap in our bloodlines.
Also, I've read where there is embryo testing available for those that have negative/positive horses AND have the financial means to do embryo transfer. They could test the embryos and only implant those that test negative, and their get from the stock would then be clean. I realize this is a very expensive proposition, but if you are already spending the $ for the embryo transfer program, what's a few $ more for testing? Just thinking out loud.
Several univerisities are trying to find the gene(s) responsible for PSSM 2, reasearch takes time and a LOT of $$. They will find it eventually, Just hoping they find it in the next few years.
Personally, I don't think it has worked worth a darm as far as HYPP is concerned. Sure there aren't any that are H/H being registered, BUT the N/H horses STILL have HYPP! With some of these diseases, it only takes getting the gene from ONE parent for the foal to "have" the disease. WIth others, if they only have one copy, they are a carrier but don't have symptoms so as long as they are bred to a non carrier, they will never have a foal that "has" the disease.
for the 2015 breeding season, ALL stallions have to be tested. |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
 
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Sorry, I thought N/H didn't have symptoms. I rode too many bad Impressive bred horses to buy one so I haven't been overly concerned with their status. I just knew AQHA passed some rule that they couldn;t be registered if they were positive. I will stick with thinking positive 5Panels shouldn't be registered.
For your original question, I would wait for results if I wanted a particular horse bad enough. I still wonder if the stud I lost wasn't PSSM positive and having some sort of issue from being hauled and no exercise on the 1500 mile trip home. I also think they knew about it when they sold him, but the past is the past. Because of that, I do plan to test new horses we buy.
I have gotten results from AQHA anywhere from 10 days to a month. I never know why it takes so much longer one time over another. Papers are the same way. Everyone this spring was 2-3 months out and I sent in and had them back in 2 weeks. I guess I got lucky for once. |
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | I was answering the OP based on a buyers point of view and the little bit of information I've managed to read on this subject. It's only MY thoughts/opinion at the moment...
If you were creating the testing rules, how would you go about it?
If I was trying to create a system to complete the 5 panel testing, i would also have milestones, or requirements in waves, similar to what AQHA is trying to accomplish. Can you imagine have to test ALL AQHA stallions at once? Shoot, they are having issues getting out the test kits with just the top stallions, imagine having to test ALL stallions at once! It would be pandemonium! Testing stallions first make sense since they have the ability to produce multiple foals and MOST breeding mares produce just one foal a year.
Yes, PSSM2 is an issue, unfortunately a simple DNA hair test isn't available yet. Currently the only way to test for PSSM2 is with a biopsy at $300+ just for the test + vet fees. That is a chunk of change!!! Maybe AQHA knows researchers have narrowed down the gene that causes PSSM2 or maybe it's an aquired condition, that has no gene per say to test. Who knows??
You also have stallion owners very upset that they have to spend $85.00 for the 5 panel test per stallion, can you imagine the uproar over the added biopsy costs? Holy smokes, it would be chaos! Finally, add in the unknown factor, many generations of ranchers/breeding programs may have some positives in their stock, it gets to be really scary for them as this is their livelyhood, their name, who they are and have been for generations.
I have no idea what the final answer should be, but at least AQHA is starting somewhere.  |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 504
Location: Illinois | I have a random question. I've done a ton of work with cattle genetic defects (actually the girl working on the horse GBE spent time with us while working on that). In cattle, a person can look up an animal get a detailed pedigree including defect status of all ancestors and if not tested get a probability that animal is positive. Does AQHA not do this? I have not bred anything or been a member for quite awhile so I don't know how the database is set up. I would think this could eliminate a lot of people needing to test as some animals would be free by pedigree.
On a side note I looked at Davis' website and the cost if the new gated mutation was 350. Wow! I guess they must have wanted that test pretty bad. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | RacingQH - 2014-01-05 4:43 PM
OregonBR - 2014-01-05 3:02 PM I was told 3-4 days to get it out. 3-5 days to receive it in the mail. 4 weeks to get the results. Isn't that ridiculous when Animal Genetics can get it done from beginning to end in less than a week? (I've heard)Â
Funny how it should take 4 WEEKS to get the results when according to U.C Davis, it only takes 2 to 6 days to do the testing!
Â
Yeah, stupid me, I believed that too.
Thanks to those of you who gave your actual experiences. Good to know the truth.
(hmmm . . . can't find an emoticon with a red face and smoke coming out the ears . . . but that would be me about now.)
ETA
I have zero trouble with spending $85/stud on testing. I think the general idea is great. However, I have a huge problem having to double test a horse I'm looking at to buy - once to have it done in a reasonable amount of time and then again to have it done to be official with the AQHA because they don't have a contract with the faster lab? That is not acceptable. It really isn't.
Edited by ausranch 2014-01-05 7:57 PM
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The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | cruisin3 - 2014-01-05 4:42 PMI have a random question. I've done a ton of work with cattle genetic defects (actually the girl working on the horse GBE spent time with us while working on that). In cattle, a person can look up an animal get a detailed pedigree including defect status of all ancestors and if not tested get a probability that animal is positive. Does AQHA not do this? I have not bred anything or been a member for quite awhile so I don't know how the database is set up. I would think this could eliminate a lot of people needing to test as some animals would be free by pedigree. On a side note I looked at Davis' website and the cost if the new gated mutation was 350. Wow! I guess they must have wanted that test pretty bad. The only thing AQHA can do this for at this point is HYPP. If both parents are either N/N OR are not descendants of a stallion named Impressive, them the foal is automatically N/N and doesn't need to be tested. Thing is the testing for some of the other diseases is fairly new and not many horses have been tested yet. AND they (the diseases) are not traced to one specific sire, ANY horse could have it so the only way to know is thru testing. Unless you have gotten a foal by your stallion and/or out of your mare that has GBED. If they have produced offspring with the disease, they are carriers. Horses that HAVE it don't live long enough to breed. Down the road, if ALL breeding horses are required to be tested, they (AQHA) will be able to know a foal is N/N across the board (without the foal itself having to be tested) if both parents are.
Edited by RacingQH 2014-01-05 10:08 PM
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The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | Anniemae - 2014-01-05 4:37 PM
I was answering the OP based on a buyers point of view and the little bit of information I've managed to read on this subject. Â It's only MY thoughts/opinion at the moment...
If you were creating the testing rules, how would you go about it? Â Â
If I was trying to create a system to complete the 5 panel testing, i would also have milestones, or requirements in waves, similar to what AQHA is trying to accomplish. Â Can you imagine have to test ALL AQHA stallions at once? Â Shoot, they are having issues getting out the test kits with just the top stallions, imagine having to test ALL stallions at once! It would be pandemonium! Â Testing stallions first make sense since they have the ability to produce multiple foals and MOST breeding mares produce just one foal a year. Â
Yes, PSSM2 is an issue, unfortunately a simple DNA hair test isn't available yet. Currently the only way to test for PSSM2 is with a biopsy at $300+ just for the test + vet fees. That is a chunk of change!!! Â Maybe AQHA knows researchers have narrowed down the gene that causes PSSM2 or maybe it's an aquired condition, that has no gene per say to test. Â Who knows?? Â
You also have stallion owners very upset that they have to spend $85.00 for the 5 panel test per stallion, can you imagine the uproar over the added biopsy costs? Â Holy smokes, it would be chaos! Â Finally, add in the unknown factor, many generations of ranchers/breeding programs may have some positives in their stock, it gets to be really scary for them as this is their livelyhood, their name, who they are and have been for generations.
I have no idea what the final answer should be, but at least AQHA is starting somewhere. Â Â Â Â
If i were making the rules for testing, I would do it like they did with DNA. After the stallions are all done, I would have the mares done like: The first year say all mares 7yo and YOUNGER. So if we started in 2016, it would be all mares foaled Jan 1 2009 or AFTER. The next year, all mares foaled Jan 1 2008 or after, ect... Until most breeding aged mares were included. |
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Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | At some point, I assume they will ease into testing mares, but they need to get the process organized a heck of a lot better before they jump into that huge number.
Has anyone heard anything from APHA on this subject? Or will they just stick their heads in the sand? |
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 "Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Ok guys. AQHA WILL BE changing things in the future. The thing is, it takes time to change things and NO ONE is ever happy about change. They have to start somewhere and this is where they are starting. If you don't like it, then submit a rule change form. They will be listing test results on registration papers in the future, as well. It makes no sense to say that we shouldn't test for ANY of these, if it doesn't include PSSM 2. We can only genetically test for what's AVAILABLE! The PSSM Type 2 gene will be found eventually, but we shouldn't continue NOT TESTING for Type 1 just because Type 2 can't be hair tested!!! Can you imagine the uproar if they required ALL horses tested all at once?!? Yeah, that probably wouldn't go too smooth! In the grand scheme of things, testing a single horse so that it can be sold is such a minuscule cost that if a buyer/seller really wants to buy/sell a horse, who cares if you have to pay for AG's test so that you can have results faster!?! This is not just a way for AQHA to "make money" or screw the members. Trust me! I have TWO positive horses and they are high maintenance! This is a dominant gene (PSSM) so all it takes is one copy and the horse HAS the disorder. There is no such thing as "just a carrier"...the horse either has it or they don't!
That's my rant for the day! Trust me... Testing of ANY kind is a GOOD thing! |
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The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | Yep. One copy of HYPP or PSSM means they HAVE it. HERDA, GBED, and MH require a copy from BOTH parents for the foal to HAVE it. Unfortunately some can be FATAL if the foal has it. I have also read lately that they are thinking horses with a single copy of HERDA may have issues other than with their skin. |
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Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | Testing is a good thing. I'm behind the general idea.
I feel I mislead by my own association about this situation. Lying. Nope, not a good thing. Either they should figure out what it takes to rush these results (2 weeks) even if they charge extra for that or they should be upfront when someone asks and say it could take 2 months AND you could get it done, unofficially, faster at these labs. In fact, I think all of that information should be easy to find on the AQHA's site.
They have made a rule that will have a big impact on stallion sale transactions. They need to be transparent for those of us who are in the midst of those transactions. Buying studs is difficult enough without inadequate information.
I'd also like to know why only Davis is allowed for official results. That would just be interesting to know. |
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The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | Decided to call AQHA today and see if they had gotten any info back on my mares 5 panel. They said it was JUST entered into the AQHA system a couple of days ago and I should be getting an email from them. The guy on the phone told me that she is N/N across the board though!   |
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"Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA |
Great news! Very happy for you! |
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The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | ausranch - 2014-01-06 6:31 AM Testing is a good thing. I'm behind the general idea. I feel I mislead by my own association about this situation. Lying. Nope, not a good thing. Either they should figure out what it takes to rush these results (2 weeks) even if they charge extra for that or they should be upfront when someone asks and say it could take 2 months AND you could get it done, unofficially, faster at these labs. In fact, I think all of that information should be easy to find on the AQHA's site. They have made a rule that will have a big impact on stallion sale transactions. They need to be transparent for those of us who are in the midst of those transactions. Buying studs is difficult enough without inadequate information. I'd also like to know why only Davis is allowed for official results. That would just be interesting to know. I appears to me that the issue is AQHA themselves, NOT U.C Davis. It took 4 WEEKS from the time I mailed the check until I got the kit in the mail (12-11). I mailed it to U.C Davis on a Thursday (12-12), according to U.C Davis, they received it the very next Monday (12-16). They completed all testing and sent the results to AQHA, ELECTRONICALLY, (so no additional delay for sending the info via snail mail.) the same week. According to what I was told by AQHA the results were just entered into their system on 1-4 which was Saturday. (I thought they were closed on the weekend?) That makes it just over 2 WEEKS from the time AQHA got the results until they put them into their system. Maybe it would have been abit faster if there hadn't been 2 major holidays during those 2 weeks. Or maybe not. HAHAHA. The only reason I have the results today is that I called AQHA. I was told I should be getting an email with the results. Wonder how long that will take? LOL
Edited by RacingQH 2014-01-06 6:38 PM
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The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | annemarea - 2014-01-06 12:49 PM Great news! Very happy for you!
Thanks. |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | RacingQH - 2014-01-06 4:36 PM ausranch - 2014-01-06 6:31 AM Testing is a good thing. I'm behind the general idea. I feel I mislead by my own association about this situation. Lying. Nope, not a good thing. Either they should figure out what it takes to rush these results (2 weeks) even if they charge extra for that or they should be upfront when someone asks and say it could take 2 months AND you could get it done, unofficially, faster at these labs. In fact, I think all of that information should be easy to find on the AQHA's site. They have made a rule that will have a big impact on stallion sale transactions. They need to be transparent for those of us who are in the midst of those transactions. Buying studs is difficult enough without inadequate information. I'd also like to know why only Davis is allowed for official results. That would just be interesting to know. I appears to me that the issue is AQHA themselves, NOT U.C Davis. It took 4 WEEKS from the time I mailed the check until I got the kit in the mail (12-11). I mailed it to U.C Davis on a Thursday (12-12), according to U.C Davis, they received it the very next Monday (12-16). They completed all testing and sent the results to AQHA, ELECTRONICALLY, (so no additional delay for sending the info via snail mail.) the same week. According to what I was told by AQHA the results were just entered into their system on 1-4 which was Saturday. (I thought they were closed on the weekend?) That makes it just over 2 WEEKS from the time AQHA got the results until they put them into their system. Maybe it would have been abit faster if there hadn't been 2 major holidays during those 2 weeks. Or maybe not. HAHAHA. The only reason I have the results today is that I called AQHA. I was told I should be getting an email with the results. Wonder how long that will take? LOL
Are they going to send a hard copy as well? If the results are going on the papers, at what point are they going to ask us to send in the certificate to do that? Nobody said anything about that. 
I think they should post the results of the tests on the online research area. They have all the rest of the information relating to the horse on there. ET, Parentage verified, etc... When I'm looking at a mare or stallion I research their pedigree and accomplishments on the database. Makes sense it would be there for all to see.
Additional Horse Information for ____________ ______:
- Genetic Typed
- Race Challenge
- Embryo Transfer
- Dam Has Embryo Enrollment
Just add another line.  |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm |
YaY for you! |
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The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | I don't know ,I didn't ask. You would think they would. I've seen pictures of a horses results. I figured they had gotten them in the mail rather than printing off an email. Might just have to call back tomorrow and ask. I agree, they should have it on the horses record stop you can see it. It wouldn't be hard.
Edited by RacingQH 2014-01-06 10:09 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | RacingQH - 2014-01-06 5:36 PM
ausranch - 2014-01-06 6:31 AM Testing is a good thing. I'm behind the general idea. I feel I mislead by my own association about this situation. Lying. Nope, not a good thing. Either they should figure out what it takes to rush these results (2 weeks) even if they charge extra for that or they should be upfront when someone asks and say it could take 2 months AND you could get it done, unofficially, faster at these labs. In fact, I think all of that information should be easy to find on the AQHA's site. They have made a rule that will have a big impact on stallion sale transactions. They need to be transparent for those of us who are in the midst of those transactions. Buying studs is difficult enough without inadequate information. I'd also like to know why only Davis is allowed for official results. That would just be interesting to know. I appears to me that the issue is AQHA themselves, NOT U.C Davis.  It took 4 WEEKS from the time I mailed the check until I got the kit in the mail (12-11). I mailed it to U.C Davis on a Thursday (12-12), according to U.C Davis, they received it the very next Monday (12-16). They completed all testing and sent the results to AQHA, ELECTRONICALLY, (so no additional delay for sending the info via snail mail.) the same week. According to what I was told by AQHA the results were just entered into their system on 1-4 which was Saturday. (I thought they were closed on the weekend?) That makes it just over 2 WEEKS from the time AQHA got the results until they put them into their system. Maybe it would have been abit faster if there hadn't been 2 major holidays during those 2 weeks. Or maybe not. HAHAHA.  The only reason I have the results today is that I called AQHA. I was told I should be getting an email with the results. Wonder how long that will take? LOL
First, congrats on your great news!
Second, thank you very much for that detailed information. It really helps to know facts. And it makes it sound like it is an easily solved problem - more help at AQHA.
Again, thanks - a lot! |
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The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | Thanks and you're welcome. I'll update again after I talk to AQHA again about if we are going to get a copy of the results mailed to us or not. |
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