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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 591
 
| I would highly recommend riding in one that has a larger gullet size before investing a lot of money in one. I was dead set on buying a Crown C. Got my horse fitted and they said he would be best with an 8.5". I rode in one that was that size and it was the most uncomfortable ride I've ever had in my life. Felt like I was trying to grip a barrel it was so wide. Had I attempted a run I'm sure I would have looked like a mutton buster and rolled right off the side. I have pretty short legs and I felt like a little kid all over again where your feet barely go past the saddle pad. I just could not spend that kind of money on something that was so uncomfortable for me to ride in. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 130
| I would really like to hear opinions from some of the top saddle makers in America about the "gullet width" dilema. I wish we could get input from Howard Council, Billy Hogg, etc about this. I just cannot see how such a wide gullet is good for a horse. If you don't keep that saddle on the loin muscles down the back, it's going to bruise the ribs because of dropping down too low. I personally don't like the idea of having to shim a saddle to make it fit a horse. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
 
| TripleK - 2014-01-09 7:57 PM
I would really like to hear opinions from some of the top saddle makers in America about the "gullet width" dilema. I wish we could get input from Howard Council, Billy Hogg, etc about this. I just cannot see how such a wide gullet is good for a horse. If you don't keep that saddle on the loin muscles down the back, it's going to bruise the ribs because of dropping down too low. I personally don't like the idea of having to shim a saddle to make it fit a horse.
The crown c still stays on the loin, that is why you need to shim the front. If you have noticed the majority of horses develop atrophy behind the wither as this is where most ill fitting saddles pinch.
With the Martin philosophy you place the gullet in this area, the actual degree of bars is 100 where a normal saddle maker makes from 92-95 and call this quarter horse bars. The regular pozzi is 90, the regular Lisa Lockhart is 100, the regular Kelly kaminiski is 90.
The theory behind the Martin on why the saddle should be placed behind the shoulder is horses were not designed to carry weight on their back, if you place a restricting object down on their shoulder and tie it in place as tight as you can (some people do ride this way) the soft tissue between the shoulder. I can't remember if they did studies on this or not. By placing the saddle behind the shoulder, this was the lesser impact, and by having the big gullet, and good saddle fit you are not restricting movement, not decreasing blood circulation, therefore not causing muscle atrophy. Brian also said that he believes majority of horses will need to be shimmed in the front their entire life. | |
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 Northern Exposure
Posts: 3919
Location: Wasagaming, Manitoba, Canada | I am a big believer in the Crown C. I have clinics where I get to see alot of horses fit.
The results and muscle developement in the horses is very cool. I love how my horse rides and feels using the saddles.
My horse was fit for a 8.5, I bought him a 9 and shimmed until he filled out. Now he's filled out enough in a year with it, he is ready to move up. The saddles are work in the sense you have to learn how to shim and be diligent about checking fit. I love them and it's been worth it for me. Even got my roper SO ordering a 9.5" roper for his head horses. haha
I would contact Brian and talk to him for any concerns or questions, they are great to work with. :)
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 Star Padded Honey
Posts: 8890
Location: NW MT | TripleK - 2014-01-09 6:57 PM I would really like to hear opinions from some of the top saddle makers in America about the "gullet width" dilema. I wish we could get input from Howard Council, Billy Hogg, etc about this. I just cannot see how such a wide gullet is good for a horse. If you don't keep that saddle on the loin muscles down the back, it's going to bruise the ribs because of dropping down too low. I personally don't like the idea of having to shim a saddle to make it fit a horse.
As I stated earlier in this thread, Martin saddles are going by the BARE TREE size, not the finished product. So in reality, a 9" (for example) is not a finished 9". | |
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boon
Posts: 3
| Brian is great to work with, however I've learned quite a bit about what can happen when you pull a saddle back to get it off the shoulder blades, because I have a very broad horse with skinny withers but shoulder blades that come extremely far back. I agree that a saddle can not sit directly on the scapula. So when you pull most saddles back behind those shoulder blades, the saddle's narrowest point will be further back than intended and will end up pinching behind the wither somewhere. Ed Wright sets the saddle where its manufacturer intended, further forward, and uses his wool pad with built-in shims to give the saddle clearance over the shoulder blade. I like that idea, because of the aforementioned problem in moving a saddle back when most of today's makers design them to ride up on the wither. The Crown C does not pinch in the middle or behind the wither, which is awesome. However, it's so wide in the front that when you pull it back behind the shoulder blades, the front will tip down. The horse is happy, but the rider is tipped downhill and that's a bad way to ride approaching a turn. You would think that a shim like Sherry uses under the front of the saddle would elevate it enough for it to become level, but unfortunately, no matter how many layers of things I used to prop the front of that saddle up, as soon as I cinched up tight for a run, I was tipped downhill like no tomorrow. Look at the photographs of Kassie Mowry from the days she was winning everything circa Jud Little. Then look at photographs of her in the past two years riding the Crown C. She is leaning back approaching the turn! She has to lean back - and I did, too - because that saddle tips downhill because it's too wide in the front end and it is pitching her forward at the time she needs to be able to sit down for the turn. I've been round and round and I love Brian and the gang, and after having him custom-make me a saddle and then completely rebuilding it I finally gave up and sold it. I had gotten turned onto the Crown C after riding in Sherry's personal saddle, which felt amazing. Everything that was shipped from Martin, however, was nothing close to Sherry's own Crown C. Martin used to build Sherry's saddles higher in the front end for when she rode low-withered horses like the Jody O'Toole she had and perhaps Stingray. I don't know for sure if the saddle she rides on Stingray has a built-up front end, but to me that would be the only way the horse and rider could both be happy. It's been three years now and I still haven't found a saddle that's as nice and wide as the Crown C, unfortunately. I recently tried a Circle Y Lisa Lockhart and here's how it's different -- the bars are just as wide, happily, but at the front they must be narrower, giving the saddle a chance to sit higher in the front. It's the only saddle that didn't tip down in front, yet really broadened out toward the rear so it didn't pinch anywhere. I haven't used it long enough to know it's problem-free, however. Anyway, please, nobody buy a horse with narrow withers, an extremely broad back and scapula that reach back to the girth area. Ugh! | |
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Veteran
Posts: 234
| first off Kassie does not ride the Crown C, it is a Martin but has a way different seat that sits you way deep bc she rides colts. Sherrys saddle is designed for people that sit up on their tail bone and ride forwards. I love my crown C's. If you are experiencing them tipping down I would shim more. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| J2mankin. I wanted to comment on your post.
I have a Martin crown c 11 inch gullet, I shim with the two shims, I have two horses I ride in this saddle, and it does not dip down in the front. My 11 inch is a flat bar, and am wondering if this was your problem, the regular crown c saddles have a lot of rock in the bars, and I find you have to have a really high wither for these saddles to fit properly.
This is just my opinion | |
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 Big Gun
Posts: 2216
Location: Texas | I had Brian fit my horse and he said he needed a 9". I have had the saddle almost 1.5 years and he has not grown any in the wither shoulder area, still had to use 2 shims with it. When I had the saddle back behind the shoulder like Brian showed me it would make him sore in the loins, plus the saddle throws me forward something terrible running to the first barrel. If my horse wasn't so wide I would sell this saddle and get a different one, but there aren't any saddle makers in my area that believe the therory of needing a larger gullet, so I'm pretty much stuck with it. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Sherri Cervi explains the Martin Crown C, saddle fitting and shimming, the hows and why's. Good video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4iVhzeegyk
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 Veteran
Posts: 224
Location: Southern OK aka God's Country | I just bought an 8" Crown C after riding in a Martin Sherry Cervi for the last 2 years. I bought a 14.5" b/c that's what my other Martin is, but I wish I had gone up to a 15" b/c I felt like the way the seat rides I could use the extra .5". They are totally different.
When I first put the Crown C on, it kept sliding back and I thought it didn't fit. But after watching the video of Sherry explaining how they are supposed to fit and where they're supposed to ride, I was able to adjust it to where it's supposed to be and it stopped sliding back, because her shoulders were no longer working it back into place. It's different riding behind the shoulder, as I have always ridden on top of it. Now I go from one to the other when I switch horses. After a pad adjustment and a shim, it seems to be where it's supposed to and everything is working great. So, just be prepared to adjust what you need to if you go to a Crown C. Definitely ride one before you buy it, don't just throw it on your horse and call it good. | |
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Big Gun
Posts: 2216
Location: Texas | j2mankin - 2014-02-06 2:47 PM Brian is great to work with, however I've learned quite a bit about what can happen when you pull a saddle back to get it off the shoulder blades, because I have a very broad horse with skinny withers but shoulder blades that come extremely far back. I agree that a saddle can not sit directly on the scapula. So when you pull most saddles back behind those shoulder blades, the saddle's narrowest point will be further back than intended and will end up pinching behind the wither somewhere. Ed Wright sets the saddle where its manufacturer intended, further forward, and uses his wool pad with built-in shims to give the saddle clearance over the shoulder blade. I like that idea, because of the aforementioned problem in moving a saddle back when most of today's makers design them to ride up on the wither. The Crown C does not pinch in the middle or behind the wither, which is awesome. However, it's so wide in the front that when you pull it back behind the shoulder blades, the front will tip down. The horse is happy, but the rider is tipped downhill and that's a bad way to ride approaching a turn. You would think that a shim like Sherry uses under the front of the saddle would elevate it enough for it to become level, but unfortunately, no matter how many layers of things I used to prop the front of that saddle up, as soon as I cinched up tight for a run, I was tipped downhill like no tomorrow. Look at the photographs of Kassie Mowry from the days she was winning everything circa Jud Little. Then look at photographs of her in the past two years riding the Crown C. She is leaning back approaching the turn! She has to lean back - and I did, too - because that saddle tips downhill because it's too wide in the front end and it is pitching her forward at the time she needs to be able to sit down for the turn. I've been round and round and I love Brian and the gang, and after having him custom-make me a saddle and then completely rebuilding it I finally gave up and sold it. I had gotten turned onto the Crown C after riding in Sherry's personal saddle, which felt amazing. Everything that was shipped from Martin, however, was nothing close to Sherry's own Crown C. Martin used to build Sherry's saddles higher in the front end for when she rode low-withered horses like the Jody O'Toole she had and perhaps Stingray. I don't know for sure if the saddle she rides on Stingray has a built-up front end, but to me that would be the only way the horse and rider could both be happy. It's been three years now and I still haven't found a saddle that's as nice and wide as the Crown C, unfortunately. I recently tried a Circle Y Lisa Lockhart and here's how it's different -- the bars are just as wide, happily, but at the front they must be narrower, giving the saddle a chance to sit higher in the front. It's the only saddle that didn't tip down in front, yet really broadened out toward the rear so it didn't pinch anywhere. I haven't used it long enough to know it's problem-free, however. Anyway, please, nobody buy a horse with narrow withers, an extremely broad back and scapula that reach back to the girth area. Ugh!
That's good to know I'm not the only one that gets thrown forward, thought it was just me | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1092
Location: OK | I talked to Brian last night, apparently they have come up with a new saddle, the FX3 I believe. I thought I might try a crown c but after looking at the 3 saddles on their site, I won't know which seat I'll like until I sit in em, so I'm driving down there maybe.
I think this about the shim thing though.
Take a strip of sock and lay it over the arch of your foot. Lace your shoes up. I'm not saying it will cause damage, but to me, that would be so uncomfortable to feel that edge digging in. Do the shims have tapered edges?
On a horse with a dip and big shoulders, a saddle with a lot of flair will help allow the shoulders to move without pushing the saddle back every time the shoulder blade moves. If you go too wide or too flat, the saddle might just keep falling back in that hole behind the shoulders. I've had a horse like this, and I went through probably 5 or 6 saddles before finding one.
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | 3rdtimesacharm - 2014-02-07 2:10 PM j2mankin - 2014-02-06 2:47 PM Brian is great to work with, however I've learned quite a bit about what can happen when you pull a saddle back to get it off the shoulder blades, because I have a very broad horse with skinny withers but shoulder blades that come extremely far back. I agree that a saddle can not sit directly on the scapula. So when you pull most saddles back behind those shoulder blades, the saddle's narrowest point will be further back than intended and will end up pinching behind the wither somewhere. Ed Wright sets the saddle where its manufacturer intended, further forward, and uses his wool pad with built-in shims to give the saddle clearance over the shoulder blade. I like that idea, because of the aforementioned problem in moving a saddle back when most of today's makers design them to ride up on the wither. The Crown C does not pinch in the middle or behind the wither, which is awesome. However, it's so wide in the front that when you pull it back behind the shoulder blades, the front will tip down. The horse is happy, but the rider is tipped downhill and that's a bad way to ride approaching a turn. You would think that a shim like Sherry uses under the front of the saddle would elevate it enough for it to become level, but unfortunately, no matter how many layers of things I used to prop the front of that saddle up, as soon as I cinched up tight for a run, I was tipped downhill like no tomorrow. Look at the photographs of Kassie Mowry from the days she was winning everything circa Jud Little. Then look at photographs of her in the past two years riding the Crown C. She is leaning back approaching the turn! She has to lean back - and I did, too - because that saddle tips downhill because it's too wide in the front end and it is pitching her forward at the time she needs to be able to sit down for the turn. I've been round and round and I love Brian and the gang, and after having him custom-make me a saddle and then completely rebuilding it I finally gave up and sold it. I had gotten turned onto the Crown C after riding in Sherry's personal saddle, which felt amazing. Everything that was shipped from Martin, however, was nothing close to Sherry's own Crown C. Martin used to build Sherry's saddles higher in the front end for when she rode low-withered horses like the Jody O'Toole she had and perhaps Stingray. I don't know for sure if the saddle she rides on Stingray has a built-up front end, but to me that would be the only way the horse and rider could both be happy. It's been three years now and I still haven't found a saddle that's as nice and wide as the Crown C, unfortunately. I recently tried a Circle Y Lisa Lockhart and here's how it's different -- the bars are just as wide, happily, but at the front they must be narrower, giving the saddle a chance to sit higher in the front. It's the only saddle that didn't tip down in front, yet really broadened out toward the rear so it didn't pinch anywhere. I haven't used it long enough to know it's problem-free, however. Anyway, please, nobody buy a horse with narrow withers, an extremely broad back and scapula that reach back to the girth area. Ugh! That's good to know I'm not the only one that gets thrown forward, thought it was just me
Go ahead and make that three of us. I had saddles custom fitted, did the whole deal. Gave it an honest attempt, It did not work for the horses I ride. I went thru about 4 Martins. I've never been thrown forward in any other brand or had trouble getting my feet behind me. The beating my body took because it threw me forward was awful. I gave up on one mare that I never should have, should've chunked the **** saddle. I made the mistake of thinking that her style threw me forward and I had to learn to ride better. My horses immediately started clocking better when I got rid of the saddles and my back improved dramatically.
If a saddle fits, shims are not needed. The angle of the bars is critical, not just gullet width. | |
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Expert
Posts: 2122
Location: The Great Northwest | cheryl makofka - 2014-01-10 5:21 PM TripleK - 2014-01-09 7:57 PM I would really like to hear opinions from some of the top saddle makers in America about the "gullet width" dilema. I wish we could get input from Howard Council, Billy Hogg, etc about this. I just cannot see how such a wide gullet is good for a horse. If you don't keep that saddle on the loin muscles down the back, it's going to bruise the ribs because of dropping down too low. I personally don't like the idea of having to shim a saddle to make it fit a horse. The crown c still stays on the loin, that is why you need to shim the front. If you have noticed the majority of horses develop atrophy behind the wither as this is where most ill fitting saddles pinch. With the Martin philosophy you place the gullet in this area, the actual degree of bars is 100 where a normal saddle maker makes from 92-95 and call this quarter horse bars. The regular pozzi is 90, the regular Lisa Lockhart is 100, the regular Kelly kaminiski is 90. The theory behind the Martin on why the saddle should be placed behind the shoulder is horses were not designed to carry weight on their back, if you place a restricting object down on their shoulder and tie it in place as tight as you can (some people do ride this way ) the soft tissue between the shoulder. I can't remember if they did studies on this or not. By placing the saddle behind the shoulder, this was the lesser impact, and by having the big gullet, and good saddle fit you are not restricting movement, not decreasing blood circulation, therefore not causing muscle atrophy. Brian also said that he believes majority of horses will need to be shimmed in the front their entire life.
I have never been able to keep the saddle on the shoulders unless I used a breast collar. I have seen saddles so tight it pinches them behind the shoulders. I like the Martin concept of flared bars so the shoulders are not getting jabbed and helps with the tightness. Martin saddle bars have less angle to them to fit the quarterhorse better. The Double J flare the bars in front too. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | skye - 2014-02-07 3:14 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-01-10 5:21 PM TripleK - 2014-01-09 7:57 PM I would really like to hear opinions from some of the top saddle makers in America about the "gullet width" dilema. I wish we could get input from Howard Council, Billy Hogg, etc about this. I just cannot see how such a wide gullet is good for a horse. If you don't keep that saddle on the loin muscles down the back, it's going to bruise the ribs because of dropping down too low. I personally don't like the idea of having to shim a saddle to make it fit a horse. The crown c still stays on the loin, that is why you need to shim the front. If you have noticed the majority of horses develop atrophy behind the wither as this is where most ill fitting saddles pinch. With the Martin philosophy you place the gullet in this area, the actual degree of bars is 100 where a normal saddle maker makes from 92-95 and call this quarter horse bars. The regular pozzi is 90, the regular Lisa Lockhart is 100, the regular Kelly kaminiski is 90. The theory behind the Martin on why the saddle should be placed behind the shoulder is horses were not designed to carry weight on their back, if you place a restricting object down on their shoulder and tie it in place as tight as you can (some people do ride this way ) the soft tissue between the shoulder. I can't remember if they did studies on this or not. By placing the saddle behind the shoulder, this was the lesser impact, and by having the big gullet, and good saddle fit you are not restricting movement, not decreasing blood circulation, therefore not causing muscle atrophy. Brian also said that he believes majority of horses will need to be shimmed in the front their entire life.
The bars are not flared on the Martin. | |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | One other question. Other than Sherry and jean winter.....any other girls ride these at the nfr? It did look like Jean struggled with getting thrown forward in the turns. I know that's a tough gritty horse, but I would live to see if it was easier in a double j or Shiloh or coats. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| jojammer - 2014-02-07 2:46 PM
I talked to Brian last night, apparently they have come up with a new saddle, the FX3 I believe. I thought I might try a crown c but after looking at the 3 saddles on their site, I won't know which seat I'll like until I sit in em, so I'm driving down there maybe.
I think this about the shim thing though.
Take a strip of sock and lay it over the arch of your foot. Lace your shoes up. I'm not saying it will cause damage, but to me, that would be so uncomfortable to feel that edge digging in. Do the shims have tapered edges?
On a horse with a dip and big shoulders, a saddle with a lot of flair will help allow the shoulders to move without pushing the saddle back every time the shoulder blade moves. If you go too wide or too flat, the saddle might just keep falling back in that hole behind the shoulders. I've had a horse like this, and I went through probably 5 or 6 saddles before finding one.
My horses are all young and have never had I'll fitting saddles on so they don't have a dip.
A horse with an ill fitting saddle that is causing pressure in the other area. With the excess pressure it is cutting off blood circulation therefore killing muscle cells, eventually the horse will experience muscle atrophy, this is the dips behind the shoulder.
With a Martin, their bars are 100 degrees, they increase the gullet size to make the bars wider apart to fit the wide backed horses.
With the crown c you fit the saddle with the shims. You feel underneath the saddle and underneath the shims to ensure there are no pressure points. So I don't think your arch philosophy applies.
And yes the shims are tapered. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | I'm using my crown c for a colt saddle because that's all it fits. The more y'all talk about Martin saddle fitting, the more I want to sell mine because it sounds crazy.  | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1092
Location: OK | cheryl makofka - 2014-02-07 6:14 PM
jojammer - 2014-02-07 2:46 PM
I talked to Brian last night, apparently they have come up with a new saddle, the FX3 I believe. I thought I might try a crown c but after looking at the 3 saddles on their site, I won't know which seat I'll like until I sit in em, so I'm driving down there maybe.
I think this about the shim thing though.
Take a strip of sock and lay it over the arch of your foot. Lace your shoes up. I'm not saying it will cause damage, but to me, that would be so uncomfortable to feel that edge digging in. Do the shims have tapered edges?
On a horse with a dip and big shoulders, a saddle with a lot of flair will help allow the shoulders to move without pushing the saddle back every time the shoulder blade moves. If you go too wide or too flat, the saddle might just keep falling back in that hole behind the shoulders. I've had a horse like this, and I went through probably 5 or 6 saddles before finding one.
My horses are all young and have never had I'll fitting saddles on so they don't have a dip.
A horse with an ill fitting saddle that is causing pressure in the other area. With the excess pressure it is cutting off blood circulation therefore killing muscle cells, eventually the horse will experience muscle atrophy, this is the dips behind the shoulder.
With a Martin, their bars are 100 degrees, they increase the gullet size to make the bars wider apart to fit the wide backed horses.
With the crown c you fit the saddle with the shims. You feel underneath the saddle and underneath the shims to ensure there are no pressure points. So I don't think your arch philosophy applies.
And yes the shims are tapered.
It does on this horse. If you had a wide enough gullet for his big shoulders and didn't have the flair in front or the rock in the bars, there would be probably a 3-4 inch gap between his back and the saddle. My entire forearm would fit in there. I have no idea how many shims or what kind of pad could fill that. He had some atrophy, yes, but in this case, that's not what caused the shape of his entire back. Even with his back squared up and being fit, it just is what it is, curvy.
Now the horse I have now, he's pretty narrow, withers are medium to low. Back is very very square and flat across the top. So it's funny that he has a square back but narrow body because a lot of trees are either wide gullets with angled bars for more cow horse type backs, or they are narrow and have a lot of rock and twist for racier types. So far, I haven't found a fit. At first, what I've read about Martin was great. The more I read about it throwing the rider forward is scaring me off. | |
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