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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
  
Location: Bastrop, Texas | horsepoor1 - 2014-01-22 7:56 PM i sure would like to know why my comment piffed two people off? most of my post was about my baby in the nicu, huh?
It's nothing about you, per se'. You can't take those dislikes personally, especially on an issue like abortion. In debates like this, the more you present a cogent, clear opinion and state your reasons why, the more you get "dislikes".....however, those who "dislike" you are probably incapable of presenting a sensible counterpoint....so they take a more meek, anonymous approach....hit "dislike".
Like I said, public opinion seems to be changing on this issue, and that makes pro abortionists a little spastic. The good news is that there are signs that abortion will quite possibly become less commonplace, once people are educated and are allowed to consider alternatives where there may be some lasting deep rewards for making a sacrifice that enables another human being to live. | |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| I think part of the reason that pro choice folks end up getting spastic is because so many people resort to pulling the religion card. Many pro choicers are not deeply religious, as that's against all teachings from really any kind of Christian church. It's hard to argue with faith, and it can be infuriating to be told, "Because you'll go to hell.", without some type of good solid moral argument using modern ideas and tools.
Hotbear, you're one of the only people I know that is truly down to earth in your argument against abortion. I am so proud of you and respect you for doing your wife and daughter so proudly in their lives. I know that many abortions are done because the female doesn't know how she can continue without support of the father, and the father truly is MIA. Kudos to you and your past, you did the right thing. Kudos to your wife, because she chose to lean on you and have faith in you, and many of us wouldn't trust a man as far as we could throw him when it comes to something so important.
This is such a terribly private topic that has been used as a public witchburning topic for centuries, not just in modern culture. I think it is terribly sad that in our world there are not more hoops to jump through to actually obtain an abortion, such as counseling and offers of help and support. I think that with a better support network and education force to help give scared women options, you'd see less dirty deeds.
I just get so angry at both sides for being so very obtuse and not trying to make room for situational issues. Abortion is incredibly personal, and must truly be terrifying, painful, and demeaning. It's a hard thing, and should be dealt with within the private sector. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | casualdust07 - 2014-01-22 7:35 PM The older I get the more pro life I become. When I was in high school, I remember being made felt that if you were pro life you were backward or behind the times, and that in order to pro women's rights you should be pro choice. I remember the thought process of many girls in school that there wasn't much to worry about because you could just "get it taken care of"…Where I went to college, oh dear it was the same way…at least in the Biology department where I had most of my friends. At the college I went to, they had a display case of fetuses throughout all stages of pregnancy, showing the different stages of development. I guess for curiosity's sake one day I asked my friend and his girlfriend, when we were looking at the display, when they thought life began. They both were convinced up and down that the fetus was not alive until it was born to term, and that it was only a parasite off the mother because if you left it to it's own, it would die. I was speechless.. I guess in my mind I was expecting them to say "when they have a heart beat" or something. With the logic they had, we are all parasite for the first several years of life or more! Anyway, the older I get, the more I lean toward being pro life. A friend of mine told me, people think you aren't pro women's rights if you are against abortions, but really you are for the rights of those who don't have a voice of their own. I personally believe life begins at conception. I'm taking embryology right now and it's amazing how fast cells start dividing and organs start forming. That heart is forming before a lot of people know they are pregnant. So I am looking at it on a scientific and emotional standpoint… I feel there is a place for abortions given circumstances of health, rape, incest, etc… but I hate how some people take advantage of it. I also wouldn't like the government telling me I couldn't do something. I am conflicted.
I think a lot of people are 'conflicted' on this issue...part of it must be the entire 'when does life begin?'. A heartbeat you say? How about that 12 year old girl who is being kept alive even though she's brain dead? Or the lady who is pregnant...same thing? They are not 'alive'...even though modern technology is keeping their hearts beating.
Look up the word 'conceive'. it's an idea, a possibility...not an absolute.
If we want to delve into the 'God has a plan & knows everything before we do...' concept then why would He set a woman up this way knowing she would abort before she knew it? Wouldn't that make him partly responsible?
There are no easy answers & I truly believe that we are just on a journey...one that will hopefully make us more aware, appreciative and responsible...to & for our 'possibilities'...how we 'conceive' ourselves. Morally. Honestly. Humanely.
Murder? Are we more powerful than we think? Are we in control of lives besides our own? Are we God? Can we destroy what He creates? I don't think so, myself. Therefore, I must say it is not a life until it takes the Breath of Life...the soul who has chosen that body, that journey, then enters the body.
I sincerely hope that this 'issue' becomes a 'non-issue' at some point...and I think it will, but, not through legislation...through having the choice...and choosing decency...from the beginning of the possibilities. | |
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 Got to have my Pepsi
Posts: 6252
Location: Baden, PA | Like you said Scott, the extremely small majority of abortions are because of medical reasons. The vast majority of them are nothing more than a matter of convience. It's nothing more than an easy way out of responsibility for that vast majority. Hate to say it but it's true. The way I see it is like this. We now live in a country where there is a HUGE line of folks that have been waiting for a baby to adopt, yet we are aborting them left and right. Whats wrong with this picture?
Edited by VonDigger 2014-01-22 9:37 PM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | We are killing children and even the pro lifers know this. You don't have to look any farther than in most states if you harm an unborn baby that the mother wants you will face legal charges. We perform life saving surgeries on unborns while aborting others. We are killing babies and everyone knows it. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | VonDigger - 2014-01-22 8:31 PM Like you said Scott, the extremely small majority of abortions are because of medical reasons. The vast majority of them are nothing more than a matter of convience. It's nothing more than an easy way out of responsibility for that vast majority. Hate to say it but it's true. The way I see it is like this. We now live in a country where there is a HUGE line of folks that have been waiting for a baby to adopt, yet we are aborting them left and right. Whats wrong with this picture?
What is wrong with this picture is that NOBODY OWES a baby to anyone. Period. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Ever since the inception of abortion , there has been debate over what constitutes "life", the definition of life, when life begins, and even when it ends. The debate continues and it continues to be modified. People don't decide whether or not to have an abortion based on the prevailing definition of the day. They do it either because something is wrong with the baby (or perhaps the mom), rape, incest, or because it's more expedient and convenient. Far and away, it's because it's an easy solution, more convenient, etc... - but not because of some definition. I like to look at the big picture and the undeniable truths as I see them, painful to some though they may be. Tens of millions of babies have been exterminated for no good reason and if things were allowed to proceed naturally, they would be able to experience the joys of living that the rest of us have been blessed with. That just can't be denied. It hits a nerve with many, but those who are offended have a hard time coming up with a legitimate counter point. We humans tend to be awfully self centered and self serving at times. I have my own personal experiences and anecdotes too. One is my beautiful oldest daughter who was nearly scraped out and flushed down the drain. Another is a set of beautiful twins who I have recently had the sheer joy of seeing on FB. Their mother was pregnant out of wedlock and approached me about how/where to have an abortion. After an hour or two with me in my office, she changed her mind and has these beautiful kids to show for it. She recently found me on FB and asked to be "friends" so she could show me pictures. If I hadn't felt the way I did about abortion, those babies would not be alive. Not only that, but she and the father were later married, so that was a bonus. It's hard to go wrong when you are on the side of "life" and those examples are proof. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | CrossDRanch - 2014-01-22 8:39 PM We are killing children and even the pro lifers know this. You don't have to look any farther than in most states if you harm an unborn baby that the mother wants you will face legal charges. We perform life saving surgeries on unborns while aborting others. We are killing babies and everyone knows it.
I disgree completely...we are not 'killing babies'...we're just not 'following through' with an idea. A possibility of a life.
We must stop the emotional bs.
We must get back on track politically, this issue is nothing more than a diversion that will further ruin our once great nation.
Let God sort it out...if there is a God this doesn't matter much, if there isn't...it means even less. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 9:00 PM Ever since the inception of abortion , there has been debate over what constitutes "life", the definition of life, when life begins, and even when it ends. The debate continues and it continues to be modified. People don't decide whether or not to have an abortion based on the prevailing definition of the day. They do it either because something is wrong with the baby (or perhaps the mom), rape, incest, or because it's more expedient and convenient. Far and away, it's because it's an easy solution, more convenient, etc... - but not because of some definition. I like to look at the big picture and the undeniable truths as I see them, painful to some though they may be. Tens of millions of babies have been exterminated for no good reason and if things were allowed to proceed naturally, they would be able to experience the joys of living that the rest of us have been blessed with. That just can't be denied. It hits a nerve with many, but those who are offended have a hard time coming up with a legitimate counter point. We humans tend to be awfully self centered and self serving at times. I have my own personal experiences and anecdotes too. One is my beautiful oldest daughter who was nearly scraped out and flushed down the drain. Another is a set of beautiful twins who I have recently had the sheer joy of seeing on FB. Their mother was pregnant out of wedlock and approached me about how/where to have an abortion. After an hour or two with me in my office, she changed her mind and has these beautiful kids to show for it. She recently found me on FB and asked to be "friends" so she could show me pictures. If I hadn't felt the way I did about abortion, those babies would not be alive. Not only that, but she and the father were later married, so that was a bonus. It's hard to go wrong when you are on the side of "life" and those examples are proof.
Abortion was obviously not ever a real option in these examples. We are not God.
I just wish we could forgoe this discussion and encourage the only men & women out there who could save our country & this world to drop it, too. Otherwise...we're done for...all of us living breathing humans who survived the womb to be be born into this emotional mess...let's save the survivors. The rest will work out... | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | musikmaker - 2014-01-22 10:11 PM HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 9:00 PM Ever since the inception of abortion , there has been debate over what constitutes "life", the definition of life, when life begins, and even when it ends. The debate continues and it continues to be modified. People don't decide whether or not to have an abortion based on the prevailing definition of the day. They do it either because something is wrong with the baby (or perhaps the mom), rape, incest, or because it's more expedient and convenient. Far and away, it's because it's an easy solution, more convenient, etc... - but not because of some definition. I like to look at the big picture and the undeniable truths as I see them, painful to some though they may be. Tens of millions of babies have been exterminated for no good reason and if things were allowed to proceed naturally, they would be able to experience the joys of living that the rest of us have been blessed with. That just can't be denied. It hits a nerve with many, but those who are offended have a hard time coming up with a legitimate counter point. We humans tend to be awfully self centered and self serving at times. I have my own personal experiences and anecdotes too. One is my beautiful oldest daughter who was nearly scraped out and flushed down the drain. Another is a set of beautiful twins who I have recently had the sheer joy of seeing on FB. Their mother was pregnant out of wedlock and approached me about how/where to have an abortion. After an hour or two with me in my office, she changed her mind and has these beautiful kids to show for it. She recently found me on FB and asked to be "friends" so she could show me pictures. If I hadn't felt the way I did about abortion, those babies would not be alive. Not only that, but she and the father were later married, so that was a bonus. It's hard to go wrong when you are on the side of "life" and those examples are proof. Abortion was obviously not ever a real option in these examples. We are not God.
I just wish we could forgoe this discussion and encourage the only men & women out there who could save our country & this world to drop it, too. Otherwise...we're done for...all of us living breathing humans who survived the womb to be be born into this emotional mess...let's save the survivors. The rest will work out...
How do you figure? I'm not following you. Of course it's an option. It's always an option. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Suppose you have a premie born at 22 weeks gestation and it weighs 700 grams. Suppose that baby is immediately placed on a respirator and an IV started. Suppose someone comes along and shuts off the ventilator and the baby dies. Is that murder? | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | musikmaker - 2014-01-22 9:29 PM
casualdust07 - 2014-01-22 7:35 PM The older I get the more pro life I become. When I was in high school, I remember being made felt that if you were pro life you were backward or behind the times, and that in order to pro women's rights you should be pro choice. I remember the thought process of many girls in school that there wasn't much to worry about because you could just "get it taken care of"…Where I went to college, oh dear it was the same way…at least in the Biology department where I had most of my friends. At the college I went to, they had a display case of fetuses throughout all stages of pregnancy, showing the different stages of development. I guess for curiosity's sake one day I asked my friend and his girlfriend, when we were looking at the display, when they thought life began. They both were convinced up and down that the fetus was not alive until it was born to term, and that it was only a parasite off the mother because if you left it to it's own, it would die. I was speechless.. I guess in my mind I was expecting them to say "when they have a heart beat" or something. With the logic they had, we are all parasite for the first several years of life or more! Anyway, the older I get, the more I lean toward being pro life. A friend of mine told me, people think you aren't pro women's rights if you are against abortions, but really you are for the rights of those who don't have a voice of their own. I personally believe life begins at conception. I'm taking embryology right now and it's amazing how fast cells start dividing and organs start forming. That heart is forming before a lot of people know they are pregnant. So I am looking at it on a scientific and emotional standpoint… I feel there is a place for abortions given circumstances of health, rape, incest, etc… but I hate how some people take advantage of it. I also wouldn't like the government telling me I couldn't do something. I am conflicted.
I think a lot of people are 'conflicted' on this issue...part of it must be the entire 'when does life begin?'. A heartbeat you say? How about that 12 year old girl who is being kept alive even though she's brain dead? Or the lady who is pregnant...same thing? They are not 'alive'...even though modern technology is keeping their hearts beating.
Look up the word 'conceive'. it's an idea, a possibility...not an absolute.
If we want to delve into the 'God has a plan & knows everything before we do...' concept then why would He set a woman up this way knowing she would abort before she knew it? Wouldn't that make him partly responsible?
There are no easy answers & I truly believe that we are just on a journey...one that will hopefully make us more aware, appreciative and responsible...to & for our 'possibilities'...how we 'conceive' ourselves. Morally. Honestly. Humanely.
Murder? Are we more powerful than we think? Are we in control of lives besides our own? Are we God? Can we destroy what He creates? I don't think so, myself. Therefore, I must say it is not a life until it takes the Breath of Life...the soul who has chosen that body, that journey, then enters the body.
I sincerely hope that this 'issue' becomes a 'non-issue' at some point...and I think it will, but, not through legislation...through having the choice...and choosing decency...from the beginning of the possibilities.
I have to disagree there. People have late term fetal demises- the fetus dies in utero and depending on the stage of pregnancy they have to deliver it. In order for something to die, it was once living. They kick and have hiccups and roll around- how is that not life? | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | musikmaker - 2014-01-22 10:03 PM CrossDRanch - 2014-01-22 8:39 PM We are killing children and even the pro lifers know this. You don't have to look any farther than in most states if you harm an unborn baby that the mother wants you will face legal charges. We perform life saving surgeries on unborns while aborting others. We are killing babies and everyone knows it. I disgree completely...we are not 'killing babies'...we're just not 'following through' with an idea. A possibility of a life.
We must stop the emotional bs.
We must get back on track politically, this issue is nothing more than a diversion that will further ruin our once great nation.
Let God sort it out...if there is a God this doesn't matter much, if there isn't...it means even less.
The God that I believe in says it matters a great deal. It's called the Ten Commandments. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | musikmaker - 2014-01-22 10:03 PM
CrossDRanch - 2014-01-22 8:39 PM We are killing children and even the pro lifers know this. You don't have to look any farther than in most states if you harm an unborn baby that the mother wants you will face legal charges. We perform life saving surgeries on unborns while aborting others. We are killing babies and everyone knows it.
I disgree completely...we are not 'killing babies'...we're just not 'following through' with an idea. A possibility of a life.
We must stop the emotional bs.
We must get back on track politically, this issue is nothing more than a diversion that will further ruin our once great nation.
Let God sort it out...if there is a God this doesn't matter much, if there isn't...it means even less.
No emotional mess.... You can not charge someone with two murders when a pregnant woman is killed, but then say abortion is not murder. One or the other is simply a lie. You can not have it both ways. | |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 10:00 PM
Ever since the inception of abortion , there has been debate over what constitutes "life", the definition of life, when life begins, and even when it ends. The debate continues and it continues to be modified. People don't decide whether or not to have an abortion based on the prevailing definition of the day. They do it either because something is wrong with the baby (or perhaps the mom), rape, incest, or because it's more expedient and convenient. Far and away, it's because it's an easy solution, more convenient, etc... - but not because of some definition. I like to look at the big picture and the undeniable truths as I see them, painful to some though they may be. Tens of millions of babies have been exterminated for no good reason and if things were allowed to proceed naturally, they would be able to experience the joys of living that the rest of us have been blessed with. That just can't be denied. It hits a nerve with many, but those who are offended have a hard time coming up with a legitimate counter point. We humans tend to be awfully self centered and self serving at times. I have my own personal experiences and anecdotes too. One is my beautiful oldest daughter who was nearly scraped out and flushed down the drain. Another is a set of beautiful twins who I have recently had the sheer joy of seeing on FB. Their mother was pregnant out of wedlock and approached me about how/where to have an abortion. After an hour or two with me in my office, she changed her mind and has these beautiful kids to show for it. She recently found me on FB and asked to be "friends" so she could show me pictures. If I hadn't felt the way I did about abortion, those babies would not be alive. Not only that, but she and the father were later married, so that was a bonus. It's hard to go wrong when you are on the side of "life" and those examples are proof.
I agree with you on all of this. I guess I get caught up in "the definition" because It's been told to me as a justification that they aren't killing anything because "its not alive yet." But in reality I wonder if they carry something deep down, like if they really do struggle with it and are trying to justify it that way.
And I agree as well, when you think of it they all are denied the joys of life because they don't get to that point. And some people say, well they would have been born into horrible circumstances. But who's to say they wouldn't have persevered? Someone else dictated that and denied them the chance. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Personally, I don't consider abortion a political issue, but it is to most, and always has been. I started this thread because I felt Obama used the issue for political purposes. For me personally it's something that hits home.....it's based on my faith, my own idea of what constitutes life, and my rewarding experiences. I agree with musikmaker in that it is not something the GOP ought to be focused on, but that doesn't mean I can't be involved in the discussions and debates and attempt to win hearts and minds, so maybe more babies will live and that I might have something to do with that.
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 9:15 PM musikmaker - 2014-01-22 10:11 PM HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 9:00 PM Ever since the inception of abortion , there has been debate over what constitutes "life", the definition of life, when life begins, and even when it ends. The debate continues and it continues to be modified. People don't decide whether or not to have an abortion based on the prevailing definition of the day. They do it either because something is wrong with the baby (or perhaps the mom), rape, incest, or because it's more expedient and convenient. Far and away, it's because it's an easy solution, more convenient, etc... - but not because of some definition. I like to look at the big picture and the undeniable truths as I see them, painful to some though they may be. Tens of millions of babies have been exterminated for no good reason and if things were allowed to proceed naturally, they would be able to experience the joys of living that the rest of us have been blessed with. That just can't be denied. It hits a nerve with many, but those who are offended have a hard time coming up with a legitimate counter point. We humans tend to be awfully self centered and self serving at times. I have my own personal experiences and anecdotes too. One is my beautiful oldest daughter who was nearly scraped out and flushed down the drain. Another is a set of beautiful twins who I have recently had the sheer joy of seeing on FB. Their mother was pregnant out of wedlock and approached me about how/where to have an abortion. After an hour or two with me in my office, she changed her mind and has these beautiful kids to show for it. She recently found me on FB and asked to be "friends" so she could show me pictures. If I hadn't felt the way I did about abortion, those babies would not be alive. Not only that, but she and the father were later married, so that was a bonus. It's hard to go wrong when you are on the side of "life" and those examples are proof. Abortion was obviously not ever a real option in these examples. We are not God.
I just wish we could forgoe this discussion and encourage the only men & women out there who could save our country & this world to drop it, too. Otherwise...we're done for...all of us living breathing humans who survived the womb to be be born into this emotional mess...let's save the survivors. The rest will work out...
I'm trying to say that...it's important that we all feel we make choices, however, some things really are meant to be. Both ways. All is good! | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 9:39 PM Personally, I don't consider abortion a political issue, but it is to most, and always has been. I started this thread because I felt Obama used the issue for political purposes. For me personally it's something that hits home.....it's based on my faith, my own idea of what constitutes life, and my rewarding experiences. I agree with musikmaker in that it is not something the GOP ought to be focused on, but that doesn't mean I can't be involved in the discussions and debates and attempt to win hearts and minds, so maybe more babies will live and that I might have something to do with that.
I agree with you...I think it's an issue that will sort itself out eventually...I just really worry that the very men & women who could save our world are too caught up in this, they're losing so many votes because they're too focused on this, they need to drop it as a political tool, too, & embrace the human condition of failures that can be forgiven...otherwise? We're in trouble. They need to stop taking the bait...just this one issue could turn it all around! AND....WE are the ones who could encourage that!
Seriously...no politician stands on his/her own platform...we build it for them. This one won't hold up. It's too personal.
Now would be a great time to insist that they deal with matters that affect our freedoms, liberty & borders only.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | musikmaker - 2014-01-22 10:55 PM HotbearLVR - 2014-01-22 9:39 PM Personally, I don't consider abortion a political issue, but it is to most, and always has been. I started this thread because I felt Obama used the issue for political purposes. For me personally it's something that hits home.....it's based on my faith, my own idea of what constitutes life, and my rewarding experiences. I agree with musikmaker in that it is not something the GOP ought to be focused on, but that doesn't mean I can't be involved in the discussions and debates and attempt to win hearts and minds, so maybe more babies will live and that I might have something to do with that. I agree with you...I think it's an issue that will sort itself out eventually...I just really worry that the very men & women who could save our world are too caught up in this, they're losing so many votes because they're too focused on this, they need to drop it as a political tool, too, & embrace the human condition of failures that can be forgiven...otherwise? We're in trouble. They need to stop taking the bait...just this one issue could turn it all around! AND....WE are the ones who could encourage that!
Seriously...no politician stands on his/her own platform...we build it for them. This one won't hold up. It's too personal.
Now would be a great time to insist that they deal with matters that affect our freedoms, liberty & borders only.
Individual citizens who care about this issue can and should focus on this. After all it is that very freedom you cite that enables us to do just that. I don't have an "on-off mode" where I can only focus on one thing. We all have several things we care about. I don't need a politician to pick up the mantle for me on everything. I don't think many polticians sound very compelling or convincing on this matter anyway. They just keep repeating the same battle cry, but it too often rings hollow. It's the individual citizens who engage in discussions just like this one who can and will make the difference. I think we can and must focus on many things, some of which are more appropriate for political discourse, while others are more suited to what we are doing here right now. I don't consider the topic to be taboo. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 246
Location: OK | I personally can see both sides of the argument. Only speaking from my personal views, abortion is wrong on so many levels. Using it as birth control is beyond comprehension.
There's a "but" in there though. I have been present in a couple of cases where the mother, while not at risk herself, the baby had something so wrong it would never survive both times the pregnancy had to be terminated. NOT at the request of the mother, they wanted the baby and were heartbroken. WHO are we going to put in charge of deciding who gets to have the procedure and who doesn't? Even if the cases are rare, when it might be YOU or your daughter or sister, it could seem barbaric that you would have to jump through a bunch of hoops.
Also, if we hold to the "life begins at conception" then what birth control methods are going to be taken off the market? Will they try to take away the morning after pill (which is NOT the abortion pill) especially for victims of rape? (Isn't it a whole lot easier for women to take that pill if they've been raped and reduce their risk of even getting pregnant than for them to have to make an awful decision a few weeks later?)
It's certainly not something I would want on my shoulders to decide for someone else
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