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  Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
   
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | rodeowithjoker - 2014-03-03 12:43 PM missroselee - 2014-03-03 11:28 AM I agree he doesn't look like he's firing behing or out of his barrels. I've not seen enough of his runs, but I do know he's a nice horse from what I have seen and what has been talked about on here.
I know you know way more about your horse then anyone, and your very knowledgable, so I'm going to toss this out there and dont' be offended, but any chance at all he could be bleeding? I only ask becuase my good horse was winning in the 1D every time, not first, but always in the top four for a paycheck. Then one day, a few weeks after winning 2D checks out of 600 all weekend long, he ran in the 3D. Never symptoms of anything. No blood in his nose. But he refused to drink and took over an hour to catch his breath. Took him to the vet, cut his neck open, drained fluid containing blood from his longs and had it all tested to find out he had bled really bad. He's back to running 1d now. Not offended at all. He has bled a couple times in the past (Oct 2011 & July 2012) but my vet says he's not a true bleeder and that both times were caused by environmental stuff. I've since stopped giving him hay or grain in the trailer and I avoid nasty ammonia smelling barns like the plague since those were the two things we could point to as causes. Haven't had any problems since then.
After the run I'm not happy with, he cooled out quickly, drank a whole bucket of water and just basically seemed to feel really good. This does remind me that I need to order Flair strips since I'm out and will be wanting to use them on him and Joker this weekend.
My vet says that not wanting to drink can be a very strong indicator of a bleeder. I've gotten so OCD about tracking exactly how often my horse drinks, how much after each run, and down to the minute how fast his breating recovers.
Sounds like bleeding certainly isn't the issue. | |
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 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | runnin_turquoise - 2014-03-03 11:28 AM I couldn't see the 3rd barrel at all but what I did see is he didn't really fire going to the first, coming out of the first you had to pull him over a little bit one or two strides out of your turn, this cost you a tenth or more. Also, coming out of your second you held onto his face and he couldn't take right off, he bobbled for a couple other tenths.
Our third barrel was really smooth for once in there. LOL. That third is right on the wall and with the white board to the left of where we run, it's super tricky on a lefty. I guess I hadn't noticed me hanging onto him leaving the 2nd - we had been drifting away really bad going to third (dang white board has gotten us several times there) so I was really concentrating on finding my spot at 3rd, probably a little too focused on that as we left 2nd. | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | missroselee - 2014-03-03 11:45 AM rodeowithjoker - 2014-03-03 12:43 PM missroselee - 2014-03-03 11:28 AM I agree he doesn't look like he's firing behing or out of his barrels. I've not seen enough of his runs, but I do know he's a nice horse from what I have seen and what has been talked about on here.
I know you know way more about your horse then anyone, and your very knowledgable, so I'm going to toss this out there and dont' be offended, but any chance at all he could be bleeding? I only ask becuase my good horse was winning in the 1D every time, not first, but always in the top four for a paycheck. Then one day, a few weeks after winning 2D checks out of 600 all weekend long, he ran in the 3D. Never symptoms of anything. No blood in his nose. But he refused to drink and took over an hour to catch his breath. Took him to the vet, cut his neck open, drained fluid containing blood from his longs and had it all tested to find out he had bled really bad. He's back to running 1d now. Not offended at all. He has bled a couple times in the past (Oct 2011 & July 2012) but my vet says he's not a true bleeder and that both times were caused by environmental stuff. I've since stopped giving him hay or grain in the trailer and I avoid nasty ammonia smelling barns like the plague since those were the two things we could point to as causes. Haven't had any problems since then.
After the run I'm not happy with, he cooled out quickly, drank a whole bucket of water and just basically seemed to feel really good. This does remind me that I need to order Flair strips since I'm out and will be wanting to use them on him and Joker this weekend.
Sounds like bleeding certainly isn't the issue.
Hmmm I hadn't heard that not wanting to drink could indicate bleeding. Since my older gelding has some breathing issues, (so far hasn't bled out) I will be watching his water intake closely now. because I want to run the old man Sunday, I'm going to pull him and Chance off the round bale at Mom & Dads and take them to my brother & sister-in-law's pasture on the other side of town to eat grass if there is any and square bales of hay for a few days. That should help Joker's breathing and who knows about Chance. It can't hurt. | |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | I didn't read the whole post, but it looks like he didn't fire until he was headed home. He was kind if delaying on the backside as well. I would chalk it up to it being winter and him being sort of out of shape. I'm sure you've been legging him up but I can't imagine he's in his best shape with it being winter still. That's what I see. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| You asked on how you can improve your times, to me I see that all his barrels can be tightened up, as on first it looked like he went by half a stride he also didn't look like he rated on his first at all.
On the second run you posted makes me wonder if his hocks are sore as when he is facing the third barrel he is cross firing for one or two strides. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1087
Location: Midland, MI | rodeowithjoker - 2014-03-03 12:45 PM runnin_turquoise - 2014-03-03 11:28 AM I couldn't see the 3rd barrel at all but what I did see is he didn't really fire going to the first, coming out of the first you had to pull him over a little bit one or two strides out of your turn, this cost you a tenth or more. Also, coming out of your second you held onto his face and he couldn't take right off, he bobbled for a couple other tenths. Our third barrel was really smooth for once in there. LOL. That third is right on the wall and with the white board to the left of where we run, it's super tricky on a lefty. I guess I hadn't noticed me hanging onto him leaving the 2nd - we had been drifting away really bad going to third (dang white board has gotten us several times there) so I was really concentrating on finding my spot at 3rd, probably a little too focused on that as we left 2nd.
Coming out of the second you can see his head fling up, his nose tipped in still probably because you still have ahold of your inside rein and he bobs his head a couple times then gets to take off. Coming out of your turns you need to lean forward and put your hand up as quick as you can so he can leave. Keep outside leg pressure on him if he drifts out, or switch 2 handed as soon as you can to "guide" him out of your turn, which will make for a much smoother transition and won't cost you time because he will be in continuous movement. | |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2932
Location: North Dakota | Referring to the Jan 12th run -->
Overall, NICE!! 
Now, as far as nit-picky things... For the first and second barrel, turn him (on the backside) a split second sooner. He's going past a bit. Ground = Time
For the 3rd barrel, head STRAIGHT for your axis point and your pocket. You actually kind of veered toward the 3rd barrel, and then ended up running straight for a bit, before reacing your pocket. Again, Ground = Time. I am posting this picture to show what I mean. You should be on a straight line from the 2nd barrel to 3rd barrel. Instead, you are on a straight line from home to the 3rd barrel. That costs an extra step or two to cover that extra ground.
I'd do some slow work and get him respecting your inside leg better so that you don't have to use your reins so much to hold him off turning the 3rd barrel too soon, which he still did a bit which caused you to leave the barrel slightly wide. Again, ground = time.
Find a way to tighten your turns up and I'd suspect you'll speed up your run.
Of course, you know your horse best and how he runs best, but those are some possible suggestions.
Edited by r_beau 2014-03-03 1:19 PM
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 Morale Booster!!
Posts: 1459
| Just my thoughts, but it looks to me like you are cutting your pocket off on both the 1st and 2nd and that is why he is going by a stride so he doesnt hit it. I couldnt see the thirds well enough to comment on that. Make more of a rounded turn rather then a roll back. Easier on their hocks too. | |
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 IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| I thought it looked like he went deep on the first and second barrel....not bad but enough to cost some time. | |
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Pig-Bear Dog Lover
| He is not running at all leaving the first... maybe some breezing is in order? | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | Thanks for the suggestions & comments.
He got breezed for the first time in a long time last week (and I lived through the bucking that followed - feel good bucks not nasty ones), and I can easily put my regular spurs back on (usually run with English blunt end spurs, but forgot to put them back on my boots before the last run and had to run w/no spurs) to get a little more shape. I agree that I cut our pocket off going to 1st in the last run.
The rodeo we're going to Saturday is in one of the pens where he's always a ball of fire. Seems like at Lawrence I always have to try and rev him up more than at other pens. Lone Wolf is a little bigger and a lot more open feeling so hopefully the ground is good enough for him to lay down a RUN this time. | |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | Melanie, this is just my opinion, and I've been watching you and Chance a long time. I personally think he's sore in the back end somewhere....he's dropping the inside leg on the turns and he's hanging up behind. Almost sure signs of soreness. IMO, since it looks like he's WANTING to bow out of the turns instead of finishing tightly (but you grab him and make him finish), I'm going to guess stifles or SI....his hocks may be sore, too, but it doesn't really look like that to me. I'd get him to a good lameness vet and have him checked. These older, finished horses are hard to spot soreness in because they're so used to doing their job that they just go in there and work anyway, until they just can't any more, and I know you don't want him to get there. Look at his hocks from the side and if there's fluid pockets in the little depression on the hock, he needs his hocks injected, but I'd put more money on stifles or SI. JMO | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | dianeguinn - 2014-03-03 6:23 PM Melanie, this is just my opinion, and I've been watching you and Chance a long time. I personally think he's sore in the back end somewhere....he's dropping the inside leg on the turns and he's hanging up behind. Almost sure signs of soreness. IMO, since it looks like he's WANTING to bow out of the turns instead of finishing tightly (but you grab him and make him finish), I'm going to guess stifles or SI....his hocks may be sore, too, but it doesn't really look like that to me. I'd get him to a good lameness vet and have him checked. These older, finished horses are hard to spot soreness in because they're so used to doing their job that they just go in there and work anyway, until they just can't any more, and I know you don't want him to get there. Look at his hocks from the side and if there's fluid pockets in the little depression on the hock, he needs his hocks injected, but I'd put more money on stifles or SI. JMO
OK we've checked hocks before (and haven't found squat wrong with them), but not stifles or SI specifically. I definitely don't want to ruin him or lose him for any extended length of time because he's the one I trust the most. I'll see what I can get set up for Thursday or Friday this week and get a good game plan in place for the weekend, even if it means running Cliff instead. (I have been on the fence about who to run for a month since Cliff first outran Chance. LOL).
Thank you for watching his videos. | |
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| polorunner - 2014-03-03 11:26 AM
The video is a little hard to see, but from what I could tell there was hesitation leaving the first and the second barrel. It looked as if his head came up each time and he wasnt stretching out to run. That will cost you some time. I couldnt tell if that happened on the 3rd.
I know nothing but this is what I thought too. Not snappy on his first and second barrels. Looked to me like he may not have liked the ground or it didn't agree with him..hesitation coming out of his second barrel I bet with all these, you lost quite a bit of time.
Edited to say..do they still do Tanner Timing? You can really see where time is lost compared to the lead horse. You third was much snappier from what I could see.
Edited by newracer 2014-03-03 7:18 PM
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| rodeowithjoker - 2014-03-03 6:36 PM
dianeguinn - 2014-03-03 6:23 PM Melanie, this is just my opinion, and I've been watching you and Chance a long time. I personally think he's sore in the back end somewhere....he's dropping the inside leg on the turns and he's hanging up behind. Almost sure signs of soreness. IMO, since it looks like he's WANTING to bow out of the turns instead of finishing tightly (but you grab him and make him finish), I'm going to guess stifles or SI....his hocks may be sore, too, but it doesn't really look like that to me. I'd get him to a good lameness vet and have him checked. These older, finished horses are hard to spot soreness in because they're so used to doing their job that they just go in there and work anyway, until they just can't any more, and I know you don't want him to get there. Look at his hocks from the side and if there's fluid pockets in the little depression on the hock, he needs his hocks injected, but I'd put more money on stifles or SI. JMO
OK we've checked hocks before (and haven't found squat wrong with them), but not stifles or SI specifically. I definitely don't want to ruin him or lose him for any extended length of time because he's the one I trust the most. I'll see what I can get set up for Thursday or Friday this week and get a good game plan in place for the weekend, even if it means running Cliff instead. (I have been on the fence about who to run for a month since Cliff first outran Chance. LOL).
Thank you for watching his videos.
I agree with this too. My mare pops her head up leaving the 2nd. She's down to OSU right now, they didn't find anything in her hind end but did find arthritis in her lower cervical spine which most vets don't check for neck issues. | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | newracer - 2014-03-03 7:16 PM polorunner - 2014-03-03 11:26 AM The video is a little hard to see, but from what I could tell there was hesitation leaving the first and the second barrel. It looked as if his head came up each time and he wasnt stretching out to run. That will cost you some time. I couldnt tell if that happened on the 3rd. I know nothing but this is what I thought too. Not snappy on his first and second barrels. Looked to me like he may not have liked the ground or it didn't agree with him..hesitation coming out of his second barrel I bet with all these, you lost quite a bit of time. Edited to say..do they still do Tanner Timing? You can really see where time is lost compared to the lead horse. You third was much snappier from what I could see.
I don't think the ground has been as deep there this year as the horses are used to. It used to be the really deep, soft, moist barrel racer ground and this year it has been drier and a little shifty in spots. I've noticed a lot of horses not snapping that right side barrel the last couple shows, seems like most have had to take an extra step or two to get ahold and turn.
Tanner timing is still around as far as I know, but nowhere around me does it. I think last year at Lincoln in the little pen they were offering it but I missed my first barrel so bad on Chance that I didn't bother paying for the report - I KNEW where we lost our time so I saved my money and just pouted about it for a few hours. lol.
I agree that my 3rd was a lot better in February. That's what was so frustrating when that run was so much slower. I thought I'd fixed my issue from the last run and was expecting to hear 15.4 or 5 not a 9. (Plus my boyfriend beat me and that always drives me nuts on this horse. He is allowed to outrun my Joker but not Chance. LOL)
About my reins being too short - That is hilarious because everyone around here always tells me mine are too long! I am the queen of long reins and I definitely can lengthen Chance's before we run again. | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I noticed he didn't engage around the second barrel. he could have planted that inside foot and came back around but he took extra steps and then he hung when you had to make him finish.
I agree with Diane… get him checked out. Horses that do their job and suddenly stop working quite the way they used to- sign something is sore. It is so hard to find lameness issues, and even harder to get them over the mental stuff that comes with it. | |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| I agree with Diane. When horses you know well quit clocking, something's up. He may need a break, vetting, something. BUT consider this...1/10 th of a second on a standard pattern is 3 feet. When you shrink the pattern down, each 10th equals more feet, allowing less time for error of even a few feet. It looks like that pen is easy to come in too straight to first he ran by a stride and had to compensate. Fix that, then make sure you're completely finishing first, which I didn't see you do in the video. You let him out too soon. Relax your pelvis in the turn so he knows to finish and not try to leave. This will set you up perfectly for second. I didn't see anything wrong with third, tight and quick. If he's running great in other pens, quit hauling to this one if it keeps kicking your butt and you can't seem to get first right no matter what you do. Other than that, vet or time off or maybe both. A couple of weeks might turn him around. | |
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| dianeguinn - 2014-03-03 6:23 PM
Melanie, this is just my opinion, and I've been watching you and Chance a long time. I personally think he's sore in the back end somewhere....he's dropping the inside leg on the turns and he's hanging up behind. Almost sure signs of soreness. IMO, since it looks like he's WANTING to bow out of the turns instead of finishing tightly (but you grab him and make him finish), I'm going to guess stifles or SI....his hocks may be sore, too, but it doesn't really look like that to me. I'd get him to a good lameness vet and have him checked. These older, finished horses are hard to spot soreness in because they're so used to doing their job that they just go in there and work anyway, until they just can't any more, and I know you don't want him to get there. Look at his hocks from the side and if there's fluid pockets in the little depression on the hock, he needs his hocks injected, but I'd put more money on stifles or SI. JMO
I agree with Diane. He is taking more strides around the barrel and when he is pushing off to leave, he is lifting his head and hesitating. Appears to do that with the first 2 at least, not sure about the 3rd. My first reaction is that he is sore.
Good luck. | |
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Good Ole Boys just Fine with Me
Posts: 2869
Location: SE Missouri | I agree with Diane also. Like someone else mentioned he got past the first and maybe it was just my view but what if you gave a little more room going into the barrel so it would have to go past to keep from hitting? That would set you up better for the second. Just my two cents :) | |
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