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The Advice Guru
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| amy laymon - 2014-03-19 7:11 PM
Every time I have been told to inject hocks there has always been another resin the hocks and stifles were sore! Injecting does help temporarily as a band aide and eventually ruins the joint and deteriorates it. As someone that has lost a mare because of a hock infection it is very risky sticking a needle in the joint. The mare I lost didn't need injected after I had two more top vets look at the x rays so proceed with caution. I could tell you ask the reasons they can get infection just don't have time now.
I have had infected joints, and I knew my horse was in trouble the next day. My vet did not do the injection, and was out of the country for 2 weeks. My horse suffered for 2 weeks, until my vet could see him, and with proper treatment my horse was saved, and he returned to be a competitive horse for years. He is now 22 and retired.
I remember your incident, I remember that there is more to your story then just the infected joint, as it was quite a length of time between injection and diagnosis.
Not all joints are ruined by injections, it depends what you put in. Trimethsinalone the studies have shown evidence of cartilage re growth. The higher molecular weight of the HA the longer it lasts, it also is more expensive. Hylartyl is about 100/dose but very good.
I encourage all people whose horses are experiencing pain to do your research prior to the vet trip.
The 7 min scrub is to mechanically remove all bacteria from the skin, the most current research is showing not to shave the area as the shaving can cause micro abrasions which can lead to infection. The alcohol is the final step before sterile technique.
If sterile technique is broken, please stop your vet and get him to re scrub, and sterilize. | |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
 
| I agree with Amy. There is usually a reason the hocks it stifles are sore. Feet are one reason. Make sure your farrier is shoeing your horse level and balanced. Sore hamstrings can also be confused with hock and stifle soreness. These are just two and there is more. | |
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Expert
Posts: 3147
| lexyy12 - 2014-03-19 11:19 AM
I'm going to take her to him and if I don't feel comfortable with what he does or wants to do or doesn't seem like he knows then I will tell him no. There is a woodland run vet that comes to the track around here that I might make an appointment with.
Unless he injects lots of joints on horses I would find another vet. If he scratches the cartilage with the needle he's created more damage than he's helping. If he doesn't get the drugs in the joint you've wasted your money. Whoever does inject your horse-find out exactly what they're using-amount and concentration, too. "Steroids" means nothing. Some will use some form of steroid, some form of Hyalouronic acid and an antibiotic. Know what they're putting in. Xrays at least the first time before injecting so you know what you're dealing with. | |
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 Arriving at the last minute!
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Location: Kansas | Some of the things I learned was if there is any infection in the body anywhere and you inject with a steroid then that weakens that spot and the infection attacks that area. The mare I had injected was fine when I took off to AZ and she just had like one little spot right where the injection was on one hock and it was so small I could barely see it. The vet told me to put DMSO on it and then it blew up. I guess when you put DMSO on something and it does this it means there is for sure infection in there. Another vet came along and stuck her with a needle in the joint again and told me no way was it infected it had been to long...like 2 or 3 weeks. So long story short it was 1 month from the initial injection to the time she was put down. In the beginning I had her on so many immune building and infection fighting herbs to fight sickness while on the road I truly believe that was helping her fight the initial infection but once I took her off that and put her on antibiotics from the vet that caused a big ol mess along with the DMSO too. Long story short it was enough to make me look at any other route I can!!
Recently I took a horse to the vet that had gotten sore in the back. The vet said I should inject the lower hocks. Instead I took the rear shoes off and used my laser on his back and lumbar etc. In 5 days he was like a new horse. Totally not sore and back to moving normal. He is a horse that works better without back shoes. There is so much to consider. I am just not convinced to inject a horse if they have a little spur somewhere. That means the calcium/phos/magnesium ratios are out of balance. So many time people are feeding wrong. They give oodles and gobs of alfalfa causing their horse to get bone over growth which is spurs on the hocks etc. Its many times man made!! I have a friend that helps me figure out the right ratios for a horse. In a year you can see bones smooth out and spurs go away. But the quick fix is injections. I truly believe most of these problems are preventable and fixable without the injections. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | there was alot of bad medical care imho going on with your filly..I am not sure id blame the hock injection 100%.. sad situation. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 494
| If you are getting injections done for sure DO NOT go to a local vet. Definitely haul to an equine facility. I had a hock get infected from a "jack of all trades" vet. A hock should be washed and disinfected for a MINIMUM of 7 minutes is what I have been told. Whenever I get injections done (when absolutely needed) I watch over the vet like a hawk. There is no room for error. In reality, injections in the long run are worse for the joint, but work for the time being. I would suggest to check into the way your shoer is shoeing your horse as well. I find that having them barefoot in the hind feet is easier on them. | |
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The Advice Guru
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| People need to educate themselves on their horse the normal vital signs.
People also need to educate themselves on what is given and the rationale why it is being given. There are many steroids, most vets want to inject depo, methyl, beta steroids as the horse will have faster relief but the long term health decreases.
People also need to educate themselves on what should be done prior to injection. A vet should never inject before doing X-rays as this is the only way to see degeneration and inflammation.
As I said before the 7 min scrub plus sterile technique reduces the risk of infection.
If a person suspects infection, take your horses temp, even if it is low grade, take your horse to a vet. To rule out infection the vet needs to do a culture, this includes all the cleaning steps and the vet to tap the joint to get synovial fluid and send it to the lab.
The vet can look at the fluid under a microscope, if they see WBC and protein, then the joint should be flushed with litres of saline antibiotic, then after the flush HA should be reinjected.
Also if your vet does everything correct, the odds of your horse getting a joint infection is lower then your horse reacting to the anesthetic
Also if you do inject try to get your horse n the adequen regime, I also use glucosamine injectable weekly and get a good oral supplement, this may be trial and error as each horse reacts differently. I only have young horses now, so as preventative I use tight joint plus.
If you want you can message me and I can try and help you through this
Edited by cheryl makofka 2014-03-20 9:02 AM
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Infections are NOT the norm, especially when administered by an Equine Specific vet.
You have been given good advice from Cheryl on scrubbing ect.
It is my opinion that if we are going to ask them to do unusual things- at a high level of performance then we owe it to them to keep them pain free and often that means tapping the joint.
I will bet anyone that 13 out of the top 15 at the NFR and 7 out of the top 10 at any given futurity- have been injected somewhere, sometime and we do not hear of them getting infected.
Think of singers with vocal chord problems- how many regular people do you know with vocal chord issues??? None because we dont over use our chords. Or baseball players- with arm issues- how many Joe Blows do you know with arm issues in general?
It is the same IMO with horses. And often they are born with boney issues-not all are man made but we certainly ask them to do things that are not normal and at a high rate of speed.
I think alternative therapies are great and some may work to help ease secondary issues but if my child is sick or injured - I take them to a doctor, period.
Dont be afraid but do pay attention. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| amy laymon - 2014-03-19 10:59 PM
Some of the things I learned was if there is any infection in the body anywhere and you inject with a steroid then that weakens that spot and the infection attacks that area. The mare I had injected was fine when I took off to AZ and she just had like one little spot right where the injection was on one hock and it was so small I could barely see it. The vet told me to put DMSO on it and then it blew up. I guess when you put DMSO on something and it does this it means there is for sure infection in there. Another vet came along and stuck her with a needle in the joint again and told me no way was it infected it had been to long...like 2 or 3 weeks. So long story short it was 1 month from the initial injection to the time she was put down. In the beginning I had her on so many immune building and infection fighting herbs to fight sickness while on the road I truly believe that was helping her fight the initial infection but once I took her off that and put her on antibiotics from the vet that caused a big ol mess along with the DMSO too. Long story short it was enough to make me look at any other route I can!!
Recently I took a horse to the vet that had gotten sore in the back. The vet said I should inject the lower hocks. Instead I took the rear shoes off and used my laser on his back and lumbar etc. In 5 days he was like a new horse. Totally not sore and back to moving normal. He is a horse that works better without back shoes. There is so much to consider. I am just not convinced to inject a horse if they have a little spur somewhere. That means the calcium/phos/magnesium ratios are out of balance. So many time people are feeding wrong. They give oodles and gobs of alfalfa causing their horse to get bone over growth which is spurs on the hocks etc. Its many times man made!! I have a friend that helps me figure out the right ratios for a horse. In a year you can see bones smooth out and spurs go away. But the quick fix is injections. I truly believe most of these problems are preventable and fixable without the injections.
Can you list your research article on bone spurs, as I have dealt with bone spurs, my horses don't get any alfalfa.
You say you can see the bone smooth out, are you xraying, or are you talking about bumps on the splint bone, as these are not bone spurs but damage done to the splint.
If horses are getting too much of one thing the body generally gets rid of the excess by excreting it through the kidneys and out in the urine.
Bone spurs can occur for many different reasons, any trauma to the area can cause a bone spur.
Cuts down to the bone
Punctures
Damaging the bone
Fractures
Malnutrition (have one horse whose hocks are shot, never been worked, never had any trauma, no alfalfa, never had shoes, and I have to fuse)
Prolonged inflammation
Yes sometimes horses will sometimes reabsorb bone spurs, but not the majority | |
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 Expert
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Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | Is it possible she could be doing this because all of her career she has been seen by the chiro once a month. But last summer he only saw her once due to my work schedule. Could she be doing that because she was used to that and she wasn't getting it? I'm going to try and find something else to help her before injecting. She's 9 this year.
Edited to add: her feet are the best they have ever looked! So I don't think that is an issue but I will talk with him about it as well
Edited by lexyy12 2014-03-20 10:27 AM
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The Advice Guru
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| lexyy12 - 2014-03-20 10:24 AM
Is it possible she could be doing this because all of her career she has been seen by the chiro once a month. But last summer he only saw her once due to my work schedule. Could she be doing that because she was used to that and she wasn't getting it? I'm going to try and find something else to help her before injecting. She's 9 this year.
Edited to add: her feet are the best they have ever looked! So I don't think that is an issue but I will talk with him about it as well
This is the way I look at things, if my horse is off they are telling me something.
My first stop is the vet, I get him to do his assessment, X-rays included ultrasound if he suggests it. I get my diagnosis, then I treat.
If a horse is sore, hocks in your situation, your horse compensates and because of compensation their back, pelvis, hips all go out. If you have been having chiro out monthly, your horse was telling you a long time ago she was hurting.
I suggest getting flexion tests, blocking, and X-rays completed then decide where to go from there. | |
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Blessed 
Location: Here | missroselee - 2014-03-19 10:29 AM Ask your vet a lot of questions, and if you are unsure about something don't hesitate to ask. The only stupid questions is the one not asked.
I was 100 percent against injections of all sorts....until the first time I had a horse done because nothing else was working. Now I understand there is in fact a time and place for it.
 This^^ | |
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 Ms. Poutability
Posts: 2362
Location: In my own world | TurnLane - 2014-03-20 9:26 AM Infections are NOT the norm, especially when administered by an Equine Specific vet.
You have been given good advice from Cheryl on scrubbing ect.
It is my opinion that if we are going to ask them to do unusual things- at a high level of performance then we owe it to them to keep them pain free and often that means tapping the joint.
I will bet anyone that 13 out of the top 15 at the NFR and 7 out of the top 10 at any given futurity- have been injected somewhere, sometime and we do not hear of them getting infected.
Think of singers with vocal chord problems- how many regular people do you know with vocal chord issues??? None because we dont over use our chords. Or baseball players- with arm issues- how many Joe Blows do you know with arm issues in general?
It is the same IMO with horses. And often they are born with boney issues-not all are man made but we certainly ask them to do things that are not normal and at a high rate of speed.
I think alternative therapies are great and some may work to help ease secondary issues but if my child is sick or injured - I take them to a doctor, period.
Dont be afraid but do pay attention.
you know my dad and I have this argument all the time. He does not understand why I do chiro, supplements, teeth, research saddle fit etc. He says horses survived for hundereds years without all of this and we didn't do any of this to your horses when you were younger.
And he is right, we didn't, only because I didn't know any better 20 yrs ago. Yes wild horses survived without all that, but we don't ride wild horses. Today's horses are "athletes" IMO and require these things because of what we ask them to do. Barrel racing is not natural and not something a wild horse would do!
I think for their happiness they need to be kept in as natural suroundings as possible, grazing in pasture etc, but sometimes it is not possible. | |
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 I"m Jealous!
Posts: 1737
Location: Benton City, WA | There is already a lot of good and some maybe not so good advice on this thread.
Here is the bottom line, IMO:
1. First and foremost, the question you need to answer is does YOUR horse have a physical reason that it needs injected? You really MUST take xrays and have the lameness correctly localized by an equine vet, before you even consider injecting a joint. Like any procedure, joint injections do have real risks.
2. IMHO you can abuse a horse's body with over injecting and under injecting both. I personally take a minimalistic approach to injections. I don't do them unless I have a diagnosed issue AND the horse is showing signs of pain.
You will not see me at the barrel race with my horses lined up to inject feet, hocks, stifles at once. I think that is ridiculous and dangerous. On the other hand, one of my mares had juvenile OCD in her hocks. At 6 years old, her hocks looked horrid on xrays- almost as though she had fractured her hock, and was already trying to fuse. Nothing would help this horse, except injecting the hocks. It would be cruel to ask her to perform without treating this issue. One of my other mares got a splinter and infection in her hock as a baby, and also has severe osteoarthritis as a result. Although these horses have serious issues, I have never needed to inject more than 3 times a year, and have almost never done it that often.
My other options would be to 1. not inject and make them run sore (no thanks, I'm sure this would ruin their attitudes and love of running barrels, not to mention poor performance) or 2. retire them at age 6/7/8? BTW, I will consider laser fusing these mares when it gets to that point, if needed. | |
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