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 BHW Resident Surgeon
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Location: Bastrop, Texas | I guess I was just thinking that it sounds like the horse is sore all over by the OP's original post. I may be guessing here, but I bet there are a lot of highly respected top level competitors who might take a different approach than you, Dianne. Again, I am GUESSING. If I had a horse who was a top tier/1D horse who was sore in several different places, I would consider multiple things that could be done at the same time......some time off, chiro, massage, vets, injections (if indicated), and reconditioning. You can't tell me that this isn't something that a number of to competitors would do. It all depends on how sore the horse seems to be, where he is sore, and how it is effecting his performance. Yes, rodeo horses have to run through pain.....I get that. I assume this is more than the usual amount of pain. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| HotbearLVR - 2014-03-26 10:43 AM
I guess I was just thinking that it sounds like the horse is sore all over by the OP's original post. Â I may be guessing here, but I bet there are a lot of highly respected top level competitors who might take a different approach than you, Dianne. Â Again, I am GUESSING. Â If I had a horse who was a top tier/1D horse who was sore in several different places, I would consider multiple things that could be done at the same time......some time off, chiro, massage, vets, injections (if indicated), and reconditioning. Â You can't tell me that this isn't something that a number of to competitors would do. Â It all depends on how sore the horse seems to be, where he is sore, and how it is effecting his performance. Â Yes, rodeo horses have to run through pain.....I get that. Â I assume this is more than the usual amount of pain. Â
I agree with you, if one of mine has had a major injury I try and get chiro done as soon as the horse recovered, then start legging them up.
I also have an anal vet who tells me how much down time the horse needs before I can start legging up, then it is 2-3 months of conditioning.
It sucks but my horses have come back to competitive sound.
When I have done injections, I have always been told to give minimum 3 days rest prior to any hauling or riding | |
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 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | I plan on having the chiro look at him again after we inject. If he's at my vet clinic once a week, I should be able to get Chance and probably Cliff too just to be safe, over there again before he runs. From what I understand, they think the problems in his neck & shoulders were caused by compensating for the soreness in his hind end, so if I fix the SI problem he shouldn't have to keep being adjusted elsewhere.
I won't be riding him for several days after he gets injected, and at this point he hasn't been ridden since last Thursday. If he needs another week off, no big deal. Doc already told me I will need to do a lot of work to strengthen his back & abdominal muscles - backing up hills, etc., anything to get him to round his back.
Edited by rodeowithjoker 2014-03-26 12:25 PM
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 "Drank the Kool Aid"
Posts: 5496
Location: Iowa, LA | Ms Diane is a wealth of knowledge! So glad we have her on the board to share her experience! | |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| In my experience, horses with spinal/pelvic pain are going to be out all over and may later exhibit some front feet pain from compensating so hard. I usually go with previcox to help them get through until your injections and conditioning program has time to get them back on track. :)
Glad you're getting somewhere. | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | classicpotatochip - 2014-03-26 5:18 PM In my experience, horses with spinal/pelvic pain are going to be out all over and may later exhibit some front feet pain from compensating so hard. I usually go with previcox to help them get through until your injections and conditioning program has time to get them back on track. :) Glad you're getting somewhere.
That makes sense. His front feet are what we've ID'd as sore previously. His reset around March 1st, we added Equipack to his front feet and that seemed to help, plus he's getting isoxsuprine and he was on bute for several days. I have a PHT blanket supposed to be coming in the mail tomorrow so I can start putting that on him as well. I'm hoping when I call in the morning, Doc has a plan to get his injections done tomorrow so he'll have his time off over the weekend and I can go back to riding him on Wednesday. (I work crazy hours Mondays & Tuesdays so my horses are always off those days). | |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | ACEINTHEHOLE - 2014-03-26 10:19 AM
dianeguinn - 2014-03-26 9:55 AM ACEINTHEHOLE - 2014-03-26 8:47 AM When they inject the SI joints... whatever you do DO NOT let them if they don't use an Ultrasound to guide the needles. Â The difference in the correct spot for the inject and what could kill your horse is literally millimeters! Â And to do it correctly, they should use 4 needles: Â 2 6" ones and 2 8" ones, just fyi. I've had multiple horses done before, and my vet uses one long needle and doesn't use an ultrasound. In fact, where mine is injecting couldn't be seen by an ultrasound, I don't think....none of mine have died, and all of them have run a LOT better after the injection, so I figure it worked....4 needles is a lot of times to inject...JMO I think there may be different schools of thought on the "correct" way of doing it because my vet is an equine specialist and is VERY well respected all over the world, so I trust that he's doing what my horse needs, and he only uses 1 needle.
Sorry, and have been gone all day and just saw this. Yes, he only does whichever side feels sore. He doesn't like to do both at the same time. I'd say his needle is probably 10", but as a woman, I might not know how long that is. lol | |
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Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | HotbearLVR - 2014-03-26 10:43 AM
I guess I was just thinking that it sounds like the horse is sore all over by the OP's original post. Â I may be guessing here, but I bet there are a lot of highly respected top level competitors who might take a different approach than you, Dianne. Â Again, I am GUESSING. Â If I had a horse who was a top tier/1D horse who was sore in several different places, I would consider multiple things that could be done at the same time......some time off, chiro, massage, vets, injections (if indicated), and reconditioning. Â You can't tell me that this isn't something that a number of to competitors would do. Â It all depends on how sore the horse seems to be, where he is sore, and how it is effecting his performance. Â Yes, rodeo horses have to run through pain.....I get that. Â I assume this is more than the usual amount of pain. Â
I never said he couldn't use SOME time off, and she already said she was having him massaged, etc. which is what I do with mine, as well....but you don't see the top rodeo girls giving their horses months off unless the horses have a MAJOR injury, like a torn suspensory. I know, I traveled with them for awhile. They can't afford to get off their #1 horse for very long unless they have several of equal caliber...and there's a very select few that have that. That's why the American was such a boon for those girls....that way they didn't have to travel thousands of miles and use up their good horses, but yet they were running for a huge chunk of money. A sore SI is kinda like tweaking your back. You can still do most of what you normally do, but it hurts. I don't consider it a major injury, but it will darn sure make them quit clocking, and I see a lot of horses running with what I suspect to be a sore SI. I commend Melanie for knowing that her horse wasn't right and keeping after it until she found the problem. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I completely understand what you are saying, Dianne.  I don't have your experience hauling to rodeos.  I'm just thinking on my own without the advice of anyone else, but here's how I look at it.  If I have a very nice 1D/Pro rodeo horse who is sore the way Chance was, and certainly if it was effecting his performance, I would have to decide depending on how important it is to win money on him.  If he was my only horse, and if  my income depended on him, or if I was trying in earnest to make the NFR, then I would do as you describe.  If, however, I wasn't depending on the income and just trying to stay competitive in jackpots and relatively local rodeos, I would probably give the horse time off, treat him, recondition him, and get him back out there in a month or two, whatever.  This is all based on my impression that the horse was sore all over.  Injections can be wonderful, but a lot of them only mask ongoing destruction. Â
For me, I guess it boils down to loving my horse more than I love winning a jackpot. Â I realize I am probably in the minority. Â Let's face it, very few people earn a living running barrels. Â
Edited by HotbearLVR 2014-03-26 10:34 PM
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Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Yes but Doc, the word on the streets is that SI inflammation doesn't leave on it's own? I can attest to this, after turning a gelding out for a year, then he came back just as sore, plus I'd lost a year of his life. I injected him, he was back in 30 days getting his job done.
I just feel like inflammation and joint pain can't be good for anyone. I know there's breakdown (potential) from injecting, BUT, isn't that less than the joint is inflicting on itself before injecting? I'm all for time off for muscles, suspensories, etc, but the joints? I'm not sure what is the right answer, but I do inject and keep trucking. I really do love my creatures too, it's not about the money, it's about keeping them pain free during their life with me. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Has this horse ever had diagnostic work done to determine what is causing him to be so foot sore, or to find out why he's out in the various areas and sore in the SI? Like xrays, u/s, blocks, etc
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | classicpotatochip - 2014-03-27 7:00 AM Yes but Doc, the word on the streets is that SI inflammation doesn't leave on it's own? I can attest to this, after turning a gelding out for a year, then he came back just as sore, plus I'd lost a year of his life. I injected him, he was back in 30 days getting his job done. I just feel like inflammation and joint pain can't be good for anyone. I know there's breakdown (potential) from injecting, BUT, isn't that less than the joint is inflicting on itself before injecting? I'm all for time off for muscles, suspensories, etc, but the joints? I'm not sure what is the right answer, but I do inject and keep trucking. I really do love my creatures too, it's not about the money, it's about keeping them pain free during their life with me.
I'm not necessarily opposed to injecting, I'm just trying to understand or figure out the best approach that would give the best chances for longevity while staying competitive over the long haul. My oldest horse is 19 and he was a very competitive rodeo horse until I bought him over 7 years ago. His previous owner was careful and did all the good maintenence things, but if I had to say one reason he stayed sound all those years was good farrier work. Everything done with him was very thoughtful. I don't buy this notion that if you "baby" a rodeo horse they fall apart. Proper diagnostics, as Alison was asking about, combined with some corrective action aimed at the root cause, and a period of conditioning seems most logical to me, in terms of the best chances of long term success and comfort.
In this scenario, we aren't talking about something that's been going on for a week or two. | |
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Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| HotbearLVR - 2014-03-27 8:40 AM
classicpotatochip - 2014-03-27 7:00 AM Yes but Doc, the word on the streets is that SI inflammation doesn't leave on it's own? I can attest to this, after turning a gelding out for a year, then he came back just as sore, plus I'd lost a year of his life. I injected him, he was back in 30 days getting his job done. I just feel like inflammation and joint pain can't be good for anyone. I know there's breakdown (potential) from injecting, BUT, isn't that less than the joint is inflicting on itself before injecting? I'm all for time off for muscles, suspensories, etc, but the joints? I'm not sure what is the right answer, but I do inject and keep trucking. I really do love my creatures too, it's not about the money, it's about keeping them pain free during their life with me.
I'm not necessarily opposed to injecting, I'm just trying to understand or figure out the best approach that would give the best chances for longevity while staying competitive over the long haul. Â My oldest horse is 19 and he was a very competitive rodeo horse until I bought him over 7 years ago. Â His previous owner was careful and did all the good maintenence things, but if I had to say one reason he stayed sound all those years was good farrier work. Â Everything done with him was very thoughtful. Â I don't buy this notion that if you "baby" a rodeo horse they fall apart. Â Proper diagnostics, as Alison was asking about, combined with some corrective action aimed at the root cause, and a period of conditioning seems most logical to me, in terms of the best chances of long term success and comfort.
In this scenario, we aren't talking about something that's been going on for a week or two. Â
Okay yes I see what you mean. I'm big on diagnostics too. A&M practically starts skipping when I turn up with a horse! I think she's been working with her vet to try to figure it out, and it can be a long hard road getting diagnostics right when using just one or two vets.
I really don't know about long term, I think it has to do with the horse. For example:
I have two mares that are the same age. Neither was started too early (4 or 5) on the barrel pattern or pushed under saddle as youngsters, or raced, or run on ratty ground, or even used very hard in their lifetime. The red mare has crappy hocks requiring injections due to bone change, the second has the prettiest cleanest hock x rays I've ever seen.
Some horses are like some people. They just have pain issues. I just try to keep them comfortable and happy. I try to make sure I don't waste money injecting things that shouldn't be. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | On the other hand, Megan, something Dianne said really made sense to me as well when she talked about people who "tweak" their backs. She's right about that. One of the most common causes of misery and time off work in people is low back pain and neck pain. Now, sometimes that can be serious with nerve impingement etc., but usually whatever the cause, the condition is self-limited and it goes away by itself no matter what you do. If I see someone with low back pain in the office, they often act like it's the end of the world and nothing short IV morphine will offer them any relief. You sit down and explain to them that this will go away. You give them high doses of NSAIDS for a limited period of time (3-5 days), you show them a couple good stretching exercises that will help a lot in terms of providing relief and minimizing recurrence, and, most importantly you tell them to maintain normal activity as much as possible. "Bed rest" won't make it go away faster. Years ago....many years, in fact.....the standard was bed rest and traction. We learned that doesn't work and it probably is harmful. In fact, muscle relaxants are not very helpful either.
In this case, with this horse, we are talking about something that's been going on for quite some time. That's why I think we need a thoughtful plan of attack.
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | Thank you Diane. It has been very frustrating knowing something had to be up but being unable to get anyone to agree with me or even listen to me. I have been told I was nuts so many times it's not funny and my parents bugged me to vet release from a rodeo or run Chance even when the vet said his feet hurt. 
Chance is the horse I trust the most, so while Clifford is clocking in the 1D fairly regular now, I want Chance back for the big shows. Bonus Race Finals has $51,190 added and Chance excels in that pen. After his bonus run on April 14th, he is not running anywhere the rest of the month. I want him back for State NBHA (where he has won $2600 the last two years) May 9-11. In the meantime, Clifford is going to pick up the slack, though he's also going to get a little time off between Bonus Race and State NBHA. If I get the itch to run, I'll take Streak to some small stuff instead and just have fun. Chance has only run 5 times in 2014 (Jan 11, Jan 12, Jan. 26, Feb. 23 and March 15) so he's been getting plenty of rest and time off while I tried to figure out the problem.
Hotbearlvr - I don't know this for sure because Dad didn't bring the "notes" sheet home from the vet (probably because I told him to just have them bill it) but it sounds like his soreness was in the neck & shoulders, plus the SI. His feet should be feeling much better with the Equipack from a few weeks ago. I'm not so sure I'd call that 'sore all over' and even so, I think we have gotten things addressed other than the SI injection. I'm currently waiting on my vet to call me back with a plan of action for that.
barrelracer131 - We went to the vet about March 6th and did blocks to try and find the source of the pain in his front feet (which I now believe was the SI joint NOT his feet). We didn't really get any answers there which is why I've kept fishing for the real source of the pain. At any rate, I believe we're on the right path now which is a huge relief. | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | HotbearLVR - 2014-03-27 10:06 AM On the other hand, Megan, something Dianne said really made sense to me as well when she talked about people who "tweak" their backs. She's right about that. One of the most common causes of misery and time off work in people is low back pain and neck pain. Now, sometimes that can be serious with nerve impingement etc., but usually whatever the cause, the condition is self-limited and it goes away by itself no matter what you do. If I see someone with low back pain in the office, they often act like it's the end of the world and nothing short IV morphine will offer them any relief. You sit down and explain to them that this will go away. You give them high doses of NSAIDS for a limited period of time (3-5 days), you show them a couple good stretching exercises that will help a lot in terms of providing relief and minimizing recurrence, and, most importantly you tell them to maintain normal activity as much as possible. "Bed rest" won't make it go away faster. Years ago....many years, in fact.....the standard was bed rest and traction. We learned that doesn't work and it probably is harmful. In fact, muscle relaxants are not very helpful either.
In this case, with this horse, we are talking about something that's been going on for quite some time. That's why I think we need a thoughtful plan of attack.
Ok I had a really long reply typed out, accidentally closed the wrong window in my browser and lost the last part of what I was adding. I think Chance's SI issue started with his fall at a muddy rodeo last September. I don't think my vet has dealt with many SI cases and that's probably why he didn't spot it when I took Chance in a week later.
Chance got 2 grams of bute a day for 5 days right after the vet visit March 6th, and the vet told me Tuesday I'll have to do some specific exercises with him to strengthen certain muscles. I think he mentioned lots of backing, backing up hills, anything to round the back. So we really do have a plan, and he is staying turned out in his normal pen where he chases the other 4 horses around, bucks, kicks and generally acts like a fool most of the time. I'd call that "normal activity" for him. lol. | |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | Here's the fall last September that I believe started this whole saga - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G11Cx_6XjQ&feature=youtu.be | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | I'm glad you seem to be on the right track
If I were in your shoes though, I would probably get a second opinion and pull some films. I prefer to find a definative diagnosis when possible before injecting (since the blocks were inconclusive). In my experience, the "where" of the pain is just as important as the "why".
I was having issues with my horse and took him to the university just because I knew I would actually come home with a diagnosis confirmed by xray, u/s, whatever. It took away a lot of the guesswork and it really gave me a firm treatment plan for the long term, instead of wasting money on more guesswork from my local vet. It was not a slight against my local guy, but he just did not have the diagnostic equipment to get to the root of the problem. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Horses are so good at compensating and gritting through pain, that it's often like peeling an onion to get them totally sound. Unless you find something that NEEDS rest to heal, you're better off to keep using them, even if it's limited, until you get to the root of the problem and then re-evaluate. So often you fix one thing and something else shows up--it was there all along, just not apparent. If they're out in the pasture, you're not going to know until you put them back to work and then you have lost more time. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Three 4 Luck - 2014-03-27 11:14 AM Horses are so good at compensating and gritting through pain, that it's often like peeling an onion to get them totally sound. Unless you find something that NEEDS rest to heal, you're better off to keep using them, even if it's limited, until you get to the root of the problem and then re-evaluate. So often you fix one thing and something else shows up--it was there all along, just not apparent. If they're out in the pasture, you're not going to know until you put them back to work and then you have lost more time.
Lost more time? Time for what? Honestly, I am just trying to understand and reconcile this in my mind. It's not like you are losing money.....in fact, chances are you are probably saving money overall.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to have a discussion and learn. So far, I'm not convinced that a period of down time, with conditioning, like the things that were suggested to Megan is not lost time. Actually, it sounds like she has a pretty good plan. I don't have the answer as to how much down time is a good idea, but it seems to me that a sensible thing would be to err on more time off, rather than pushing things ahead a few weeks. It would be a shame to spend all that time and effort with the vet, plus meds, chiro/massage, conditioning......only to have it all go to waste because of hauling too soon. Then again, maybe I'm too conservative with something like this.
In that run where Megan and Chance fell, he doesn't look right even before the fall. His head is high. He's posturing and his back is hollowed out and he's taking his face away. I wonder if he didn't have something wrong before this fall. Also, it seems to me I have seen other videos where he is firing a lot better and just running better overall....as far as I can recall, at least.
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