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Queen Bean of Ponyland
Posts: 24954
    
Location: WYOMING | moeman17 - 2014-04-19 12:25 AM what do you expect them to know after 60 day of training?
IMO the first 60/90 days is so important, stays with them for life. Its my goal to have a 60 day 2 yr old very comfortable and confident in what I am asking them to do. I dont need fancy or quick or big stops I want smooth, confident reactions. I want wtc straight lines and circles with the nose slightly tipped in. If I ask for break I dont want past verticle and I dont need it for long... its the ease of response I am looking for at this point. I want a melty smooth stop and easy transitions up and down in gaits. I want a smooth easy back but just need a few steps at this point. I want them to begin to move off my indirect rein and leg pressure but again... its the confident response I want. After your trainer builds their confidence in the first 60 its easier to proceed on that foundation.
Edited by geronabean 2014-04-20 8:14 AM
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 357
Location: Florida | Itsme - 2014-04-20 1:25 AM
HorseMommyFiveO - 2014-04-19 10:13 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-04-19 6:46 PM
Runnin < C > - 2014-04-19 6:15 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-04-19 2:53 PM Are you happy with the job? Very much so!
Below are the reasons why I don't like the colt on the video.
The horse is not taught to give to the bit, the person is using a German martingale. When the person pulls back on the reins, the head is still going up, and the nose would go out except the martingale will not allow it.
The trainer is using a caveson so the horse never learns how to accept and hold the bit, I noticed when the person gets on the horses face, the head goes up and the horse tries to open the mouth to evade the pressure.
The trainer is also quite heavy handed, I like my colts finger touch control without any training devices.
To me this is bullying the horse into training, there is no escape from the German martingale, and no escape from the caveson.
I'd agree. And add that the colt is visibly nervous and scared through the ride. I only watched the first five minutes, but I'd be pretty ****ed if that was my colt. He looks like a nice horse, but this heavy handed, incorrect start looks like it's made him abrasive and nervous.
How many 1D horses have you guys trained?
The lady that helps us uses a martingale tp start her colts and she has been winning futurities since the mid 90s on home bred and trained horses then the horses go onto long careers in the opens, one of her 21 year old horses just ran in the 1D at the Bonus Race Finals. Also most of her finished horses run in a hack and she doesnt use spurs or whips, so I guess I dont get the martingale hate.
So if youre trainin 1D caliber horses I might take some of what you say into consideration...
Why should it matter if they train 1D horses? A broke horse doesn't necessarily mean a fast horse. But a truly nice broke horse does mean a safer horse. | |
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  More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. |
Your girls are a hoot. You should be a proud mama! | |
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 Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | della - 2014-04-21 12:58 AM Itsme - 2014-04-19 11:25 PM HorseMommyFiveO - 2014-04-19 10:13 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-04-19 6:46 PM Runnin < C > - 2014-04-19 6:15 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-04-19 2:53 PM Are you happy with the job? Very much so! Below are the reasons why I don't like the colt on the video. The horse is not taught to give to the bit, the person is using a German martingale. When the person pulls back on the reins, the head is still going up, and the nose would go out except the martingale will not allow it. The trainer is using a caveson so the horse never learns how to accept and hold the bit, I noticed when the person gets on the horses face, the head goes up and the horse tries to open the mouth to evade the pressure. The trainer is also quite heavy handed, I like my colts finger touch control without any training devices. To me this is bullying the horse into training, there is no escape from the German martingale, and no escape from the caveson. I'd agree. And add that the colt is visibly nervous and scared through the ride. I only watched the first five minutes, but I'd be pretty ****ed if that was my colt. He looks like a nice horse, but this heavy handed, incorrect start looks like it's made him abrasive and nervous. .. What does being a 1D trainer have to do with being a talanted colt starter?
If you want a good horse for life, you need a good foundation on them. Barrels is just a pattern, a series of manuvers the horse should know to properly execute the pattern. Smart horse owners/trainers know that the first rides on a young horse are going to stay with them for life. You want to build confidence and softness into your youngster. If they are bullied into doing manuvers (counter arcs, stops, etc.) then chances are you will be dealing with a horse that has built in fear for life. They never get over it. Another trainer might make them better, but it is a hole that is always there.
Your comments show an extreme lack of knowledge of basic horse training. The job of a colt starter is to make whatever horse he/she is riding work to the best of their capablility. You cannot make every horse a 1D horse - they don't all have the speed to be a 1D horse. But a good trainer can break a 4D horse and turn it into a nice, useful horse. Maybe barrels isn't its thing. Maybe it will be a mounted shooting horse, or a champion trail horse. Doesn't matter. If it has the foundation, the horse will be suited for a useful life in some discipline.
Edited by Hollywood's Fan 2014-04-20 9:24 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| Hollywood's Fan - 2014-04-20 9:15 AM
della - 2014-04-21 12:58 AM Itsme - 2014-04-19 11:25 PM HorseMommyFiveO - 2014-04-19 10:13 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-04-19 6:46 PM Runnin < C > - 2014-04-19 6:15 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-04-19 2:53 PM Are you happy with the job? Very much so! Below are the reasons why I don't like the colt on the video. The horse is not taught to give to the bit, the person is using a German martingale. When the person pulls back on the reins, the head is still going up, and the nose would go out except the martingale will not allow it. The trainer is using a caveson so the horse never learns how to accept and hold the bit, I noticed when the person gets on the horses face, the head goes up and the horse tries to open the mouth to evade the pressure. The trainer is also quite heavy handed, I like my colts finger touch control without any training devices. To me this is bullying the horse into training, there is no escape from the German martingale, and no escape from the caveson. I'd agree. And add that the colt is visibly nervous and scared through the ride. I only watched the first five minutes, but I'd be pretty ****ed if that was my colt. He looks like a nice horse, but this heavy handed, incorrect start looks like it's made him abrasive and nervous. .. What does being a 1D trainer have to do with being a talanted colt starter?
Â
If you want a good horse for life, you need a good foundation on them. Barrels is just a pattern, a series of manuvers the horse should know to properly execute the pattern. Smart horse owners/trainers know that the first rides on a young horse are going to stay with them for life. You want to build confidence and softness into your youngster.  If they are bullied into doing manuvers (counter arcs, stops, etc.) then chances are you will be dealing with a horse that has built in fear for life. They never get over it. Another trainer might make them better, but it is a hole that is always there. Â
Your comments show an extreme lack of knowledge of basic horse training. The job of a colt starter is to make whatever horse he/she is riding work to the best of their capablility. You cannot make every horse a 1D horse - they don't all have the speed to be a 1D horse. But a good trainer can break a 4D horse and turn it into a nice, useful horse. Maybe barrels isn't its thing. Maybe it will be a mounted shooting horse, or a champion trail horse. Doesn't matter. If it has the foundation, the horse will be suited for a useful life in some discipline.Â
Your reading comprehension is lacking...And yes I put faith into someone that breeds her own, starts her own, futurities her own and then keeps those horses winning into their early 20s.
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Itsme - 2014-04-20 10:03 AM
Hollywood's Fan - 2014-04-20 9:15 AM
della - 2014-04-21 12:58 AM Itsme - 2014-04-19 11:25 PM HorseMommyFiveO - 2014-04-19 10:13 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-04-19 6:46 PM Runnin < C > - 2014-04-19 6:15 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-04-19 2:53 PM Are you happy with the job? Very much so! Below are the reasons why I don't like the colt on the video. The horse is not taught to give to the bit, the person is using a German martingale. When the person pulls back on the reins, the head is still going up, and the nose would go out except the martingale will not allow it. The trainer is using a caveson so the horse never learns how to accept and hold the bit, I noticed when the person gets on the horses face, the head goes up and the horse tries to open the mouth to evade the pressure. The trainer is also quite heavy handed, I like my colts finger touch control without any training devices. To me this is bullying the horse into training, there is no escape from the German martingale, and no escape from the caveson. I'd agree. And add that the colt is visibly nervous and scared through the ride. I only watched the first five minutes, but I'd be pretty ****ed if that was my colt. He looks like a nice horse, but this heavy handed, incorrect start looks like it's made him abrasive and nervous. .. What does being a 1D trainer have to do with being a talanted colt starter?
Â
If you want a good horse for life, you need a good foundation on them. Barrels is just a pattern, a series of manuvers the horse should know to properly execute the pattern. Smart horse owners/trainers know that the first rides on a young horse are going to stay with them for life. You want to build confidence and softness into your youngster.  If they are bullied into doing manuvers (counter arcs, stops, etc.) then chances are you will be dealing with a horse that has built in fear for life. They never get over it. Another trainer might make them better, but it is a hole that is always there. Â
Your comments show an extreme lack of knowledge of basic horse training. The job of a colt starter is to make whatever horse he/she is riding work to the best of their capablility. You cannot make every horse a 1D horse - they don't all have the speed to be a 1D horse. But a good trainer can break a 4D horse and turn it into a nice, useful horse. Maybe barrels isn't its thing. Maybe it will be a mounted shooting horse, or a champion trail horse. Doesn't matter. If it has the foundation, the horse will be suited for a useful life in some discipline.Â
Your reading comprehension is lacking...And yes I put faith into someone that breeds her own, starts her own, futurities her own and then keeps those horses winning into their early 20s.
I do not have a hate for German martingales, they have a purpose in certain situations, but not first starting a colt. Personally a trainer that doesn't have to use the training aids German martingale, caveson, I find train a more well rounded horse with no holes in training then someone who uses training aids.
Each person to their own, I personally wouldn't let a trainer use those aids on my colts, I would be looking for a different trainer.
I have trained a few 1d horses, this doesn't make me the all knowing, but I am particular on how I like my horses trained before starting barrels.
Please tell me your name and this trainers name, for the sake of education purposes.
Also I know you have made comments about canadian horses, I am inviting you up for the summer to come run at our jackpots, futurities. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1034
| Good grief. No one needs to have a resume full of 1D horses to see the problem with (or identify) a bad foundation. Yes, I have been fortunate enough to have stumbled across some good ones to start and run. But even before that, I made darn sure each horse in my care had the foundation to move on to another discipline if need be, and was just plain pleasant to ride and be around.
I would hope if I posted a video of my 2 year old, if there were big problems, no one would pat me on the hiney and say good job. (Which I can't figure out how to do pics or videos from iPad or Mac... Different thread.) | |
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 Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | On the video of he buckskin colt....I think ya'll are too harsh or maybe haven't seen the worst of the worst. Sure it could be better and is card RO. Perfect, but she didn't ask for critiques or opinions. She didn't evens say "here is what 60 days should look like".
She just shared a video is all. I've definitely seen worse.
To the OP.....every single horse is different. I've been on my four year old over a year and he's barely broke.....but then he had a year off because of a broken face. I don't have an arena at home to ride in so what full time trainers can do in sixty days takes me sometimes ninety or more.
I agree at the bare minimum, after sixty days with a full time professional trainer, a horse should be solid enough to jump on and go. Bend, flex, break poll, leads, reverse, arcing etc. but if it's a rank horse that could change | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | geronabean - 2014-04-20 7:48 AM moeman17 - 2014-04-19 12:25 AM what do you expect them to know after 60 day of training? IMO the first 60/90 days is so important, stays with them for life. Its my goal to have a 60 day 2 yr old very comfortable and confident in what I am asking them to do. I dont need fancy or quick or big stops I want smooth, confident reactions. I want wtc straight lines and circles with the nose slightly tipped in. If I ask for break I dont want past verticle and I dont need it for long... its the ease of response I am looking for at this point. I want a melty smooth stop and easy transitions up and down in gaits. I want a smooth easy back but just need a few steps at this point. I want them to begin to move off my indirect rein and leg pressure but again... its the confident response I want. After your trainer builds their confidence in the first 60 its easier to proceed on that foundation.
I like the way this sounds. If I didn't know anything about Julie and if she was a perfect stranger, this would win my vote. Not that I know Geronabean personally, but I've read her posts and watched her videos and read her critiques for about 7 years now and I'm always impressed. If I had to use one word to describe her, "patience" would come to mind. A laundry list of desired maneuvers is nice, and I know she can list them as well, but her temperment as a trainer is obvious, and I think that is the one most important quality. In my opinion being a "barrel racer" would be nice, but certainly not as important as many other qualities. If I lived in Florida, I would feel perfectly comfortable sending a colt to her, sight unseen. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| cheryl makofka - 2014-04-20 10:42 AM
Itsme - 2014-04-20 10:03 AM
Hollywood's Fan - 2014-04-20 9:15 AM
della - 2014-04-21 12:58 AM Itsme - 2014-04-19 11:25 PM HorseMommyFiveO - 2014-04-19 10:13 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-04-19 6:46 PM Runnin < C > - 2014-04-19 6:15 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-04-19 2:53 PM Are you happy with the job? Very much so! Below are the reasons why I don't like the colt on the video. The horse is not taught to give to the bit, the person is using a German martingale. When the person pulls back on the reins, the head is still going up, and the nose would go out except the martingale will not allow it. The trainer is using a caveson so the horse never learns how to accept and hold the bit, I noticed when the person gets on the horses face, the head goes up and the horse tries to open the mouth to evade the pressure. The trainer is also quite heavy handed, I like my colts finger touch control without any training devices. To me this is bullying the horse into training, there is no escape from the German martingale, and no escape from the caveson. I'd agree. And add that the colt is visibly nervous and scared through the ride. I only watched the first five minutes, but I'd be pretty ****ed if that was my colt. He looks like a nice horse, but this heavy handed, incorrect start looks like it's made him abrasive and nervous. .. What does being a 1D trainer have to do with being a talanted colt starter?
Â
If you want a good horse for life, you need a good foundation on them. Barrels is just a pattern, a series of manuvers the horse should know to properly execute the pattern. Smart horse owners/trainers know that the first rides on a young horse are going to stay with them for life. You want to build confidence and softness into your youngster.  If they are bullied into doing manuvers (counter arcs, stops, etc.) then chances are you will be dealing with a horse that has built in fear for life. They never get over it. Another trainer might make them better, but it is a hole that is always there. Â
Your comments show an extreme lack of knowledge of basic horse training. The job of a colt starter is to make whatever horse he/she is riding work to the best of their capablility. You cannot make every horse a 1D horse - they don't all have the speed to be a 1D horse. But a good trainer can break a 4D horse and turn it into a nice, useful horse. Maybe barrels isn't its thing. Maybe it will be a mounted shooting horse, or a champion trail horse. Doesn't matter. If it has the foundation, the horse will be suited for a useful life in some discipline.Â
Your reading comprehension is lacking...And yes I put faith into someone that breeds her own, starts her own, futurities her own and then keeps those horses winning into their early 20s.
I do not have a hate for German martingales, they have a purpose in certain situations, but not first starting a colt. Personally a trainer that doesn't have to use the training aids German martingale, caveson, I find train a more well rounded horse with no holes in training then someone who uses training aids.
Each person to their own, I personally wouldn't let a trainer use those aids on my colts, I would be looking for a different trainer.
I have trained a few 1d horses, this doesn't make me the all knowing, but I am particular on how I like my horses trained before starting barrels.
Please tell me your name and this trainers name, for the sake of education purposes.
Also I know you have made comments about canadian horses, I am inviting you up for the summer to come run at our jackpots, futurities.
Well a person that raised a futurity winning stud and multiple futurity winning mares that then went on to produce futurity winning colts out of them disagrees with you. But hey, you have patterned a 1d horse or two. Im sorry but actions speak louder than internet drivel...
As for her name Im sure she doesnt want her name thrown around the internet, especially by me, Ill just let her keep working hard collecting your money. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Itsme, the person you describe sounds like an exceptional trainer. I think a lot of people have seen too many 4-5 yr olds have a great futurity career, and then fizzle out, for a variety of reasons, chief among them the training methods combined with pushing them too hard, too young. Of course there are exceptions, but my impression is that most horses that do well in futurities simply don't hold up over the long haul. Most people here are interested in that horse that will last well into their teens, at least, and remain very competitive at a high level. If the trainer you describe has a record of producing a lot of futurity winners that hold up over the long haul, then who can argue with success? I don't consider what others are saying to be "drivel", though. A lot of it makes sense to me. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1414
| geronabean - 2014-04-20 8:48 AM moeman17 - 2014-04-19 12:25 AM what do you expect them to know after 60 day of training? IMO the first 60/90 days is so important, stays with them for life. Its my goal to have a 60 day 2 yr old very comfortable and confident in what I am asking them to do. I dont need fancy or quick or big stops I want smooth, confident reactions. I want wtc straight lines and circles with the nose slightly tipped in. If I ask for break I dont want past verticle and I dont need it for long... its the ease of response I am looking for at this point. I want a melty smooth stop and easy transitions up and down in gaits. I want a smooth easy back but just need a few steps at this point. I want them to begin to move off my indirect rein and leg pressure but again... its the confident response I want. After your trainer builds their confidence in the first 60 its easier to proceed on that foundation.
Wanted to add - just because you're colt isn't doing "XYZ" after 60 days doesn't mean it's a bad horse OR a bad trainer. I have a palomino mare at my colt starter right now. She has about 50 days on her and she's no wherr close to coming home yet. My trainer has gone through the exact same steps with her as the other colts but she's a way different horse. She has tons more spit fire to her and is chock full of athletic ability and grit. She isn't "easy" but she's so full of talent I'll gladly spend the extra money for another 30-60 days. Sometimes the extra grit and toughness makes it more challenging but that's usually what separates the good ones from the great ones.
Edited by roanrider 2014-04-20 3:23 PM
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 Wishing I were a Wildcat
Location: 'Hawk Country | I couldn't ride for many of you. I don't want my 2 yo ridden that hard, the first 60 days, to be able to do what many of you are saying. I've been accused of being in grandma mode, but I don't put that much pressure on my babies. Mine would most closely resemble geronabean's description. With probably still a little less emphasis on head position.
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Chelsea didnt put up her video to get beat up she was just posting for the OP. The op was just asking a question and she was just showing what her young horse is doing. I dont agree with some trainers ways myself, but this is not suppost to be about bashing someone that was trying to answer a question.  | |
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 Mature beyond Years
Posts: 10780
Location: North of the 49th Parallel | Southtxponygirl - 2014-04-20 2:05 PM Chelsea didnt put up her video to get beat up she was just posting for the OP. The op was just asking a question and she was just showing what her young horse is doing. I dont agree with some trainers ways myself, but this is not suppost to be about bashing someone that was trying to answer a question.
While I do agree with you, but if you put a video on here you are going to get the good, bad and ugly. And that video does show what I, personally, don't want in a colt with 60 days on it. | |
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I'll Be Your Huckleberry
Posts: 1488
Location: Arizona | Hollywood's Fan - 2014-04-20 9:15 AM
della - 2014-04-21 12:58 AM Itsme - 2014-04-19 11:25 PM HorseMommyFiveO - 2014-04-19 10:13 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-04-19 6:46 PM Runnin < C > - 2014-04-19 6:15 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-04-19 2:53 PM Are you happy with the job? Very much so! Below are the reasons why I don't like the colt on the video. The horse is not taught to give to the bit, the person is using a German martingale. When the person pulls back on the reins, the head is still going up, and the nose would go out except the martingale will not allow it. The trainer is using a caveson so the horse never learns how to accept and hold the bit, I noticed when the person gets on the horses face, the head goes up and the horse tries to open the mouth to evade the pressure. The trainer is also quite heavy handed, I like my colts finger touch control without any training devices. To me this is bullying the horse into training, there is no escape from the German martingale, and no escape from the caveson. I'd agree. And add that the colt is visibly nervous and scared through the ride. I only watched the first five minutes, but I'd be pretty ****ed if that was my colt. He looks like a nice horse, but this heavy handed, incorrect start looks like it's made him abrasive and nervous. .. What does being a 1D trainer have to do with being a talanted colt starter?
Â
If you want a good horse for life, you need a good foundation on them. Barrels is just a pattern, a series of manuvers the horse should know to properly execute the pattern. Smart horse owners/trainers know that the first rides on a young horse are going to stay with them for life. You want to build confidence and softness into your youngster.  If they are bullied into doing manuvers (counter arcs, stops, etc.) then chances are you will be dealing with a horse that has built in fear for life. They never get over it. Another trainer might make them better, but it is a hole that is always there. Â
Your comments show an extreme lack of knowledge of basic horse training. The job of a colt starter is to make whatever horse he/she is riding work to the best of their capablility. You cannot make every horse a 1D horse - they don't all have the speed to be a 1D horse. But a good trainer can break a 4D horse and turn it into a nice, useful horse. Maybe barrels isn't its thing. Maybe it will be a mounted shooting horse, or a champion trail horse. Doesn't matter. If it has the foundation, the horse will be suited for a useful life in some discipline.Â
A-M-E-N!! 
I'm not going to comment on the video as this is not what this thread is about. However, my husband used to start colts/ train for a living. He only does outside horses occasionally now and only for people who we know personally.
I would say a lot depends on the horse. My husband has worked with horses that only had a few rides after 60 days (granted a lot of these were problem horses that needed EXTENSIVE ground work due to dangerous behavioral issues). Others, are going really well at 60 days.Both leads, good soft stop, correct back up, leg yielding, and start on side passing, pivots, spins etc. He usually doesn't move them up to a curb until after 90 days and does not use any type of training device until after the first 60 days when he is fine tuning headset, etc. once they have a very good grasp on the basics if necessary. Anyway, that's my two cents and what I would expect from a normal, physically able, and willing horse. | |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | bccanchaser16 - 2014-04-20 4:42 PM Southtxponygirl - 2014-04-20 2:05 PM Chelsea didnt put up her video to get beat up she was just posting for the OP. The op was just asking a question and she was just showing what her young horse is doing. I dont agree with some trainers ways myself, but this is not suppost to be about bashing someone that was trying to answer a question. While I do agree with you, but if you put a video on here you are going to get the good, bad and ugly. And that video does show what I, personally, don't want in a colt with 60 days on it.
Very true, and I understand what you are saying  | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Totally agree with you ozcancrasher
Edited by GLP 2014-04-20 5:27 PM
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas | Wow! I am totally surprised that everyone is expecting so much after just 60 days... So much depends on what level the horse is at when you drop him off at the trainer. Personally, I start my own and they are pretty much broke before I ever climb on. I can get a lot done in 60 days of riding, but like I said, they are well started before that first ride.
My horses don't even see a barrel pattern their first year of riding. I might walk or trot them around a barrel occasionally, but never have them going through the pattern that soon after starting them. But to each their own I guess.
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Queen Bean of Ponyland
Posts: 24954
Location: WYOMING |  Thank you Hotbearlvr for the very kind words! | |
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