|
|
  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
    
Location: Florida.. | while your getting the front looked at Id xray the hocks .. he looks like hes the type that will run his heart out for you even in pain . Id not second guess and let him run anymore until you got to the bottom of it. if he was mine hed be done for the season until i got him 100% |
|
| |
|
 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | Bibliafarm - 2014-04-21 10:27 PM
while your getting the front looked at Id xray the hocks .. he looks like hes the type that will run his heart out for you even in pain . Id not second guess and let him run anymore until you got to the bottom of it. if he was mine hed be done for the season until i got him 100%
He will! I've been going back through all our old videos and trying to see when we have fallen, and so far I've seen a fall from June 23, 2012, one from Aug. 24, 2012, and then Sept. 21, 2013. Pretty sure we went to the vet after each of those - he has a file at the nearest vet clinic that probably weighs 50 pounds with all the times we've been there in the last 3 years - but he really has not been himself since the last one. I don't know if there was stuff wrong before that, maybe it was the straw that broke the camel's back. If/when he comes back, he's only running at the good ground rodeos. Clifford can tackle the shallower junk, maybe on shallower ground he will be able to slide past the barrels instead of hitting them! lol.
He's not running until we get stuff fixed. I thought we had him feeling great when we went to Lincoln last weekend and he worked terrible up there. Of course state NBHA fees were due the day we left for Lincoln, so now I either have to get Joker feeling great for a pen he doesn't like, or get Streak prepared. UGH. I really like pre-entries that are a week in advance, not 4 weeks. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3514
| Make sure your vet lunges him both ways at a trot. Not just in a straight line. A circle will show if there is pain in ankles,feet . Then have him flex test him. |
|
| |
|
 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-21 10:40 PM Bibliafarm - 2014-04-21 10:27 PM
while your getting the front looked at Id xray the hocks .. he looks like hes the type that will run his heart out for you even in pain . Id not second guess and let him run anymore until you got to the bottom of it. if he was mine hed be done for the season until i got him 100% He will! I've been going back through all our old videos and trying to see when we have fallen, and so far I've seen a fall from June 23, 2012, one from Aug. 24, 2012, and then Sept. 21, 2013. Pretty sure we went to the vet after each of those - he has a file at the nearest vet clinic that probably weighs 50 pounds with all the times we've been there in the last 3 years - but he really has not been himself since the last one. I don't know if there was stuff wrong before that, maybe it was the straw that broke the camel's back. If/when he comes back, he's only running at the good ground rodeos. Clifford can tackle the shallower junk, maybe on shallower ground he will be able to slide past the barrels instead of hitting them! lol.
He's not running until we get stuff fixed. I thought we had him feeling great when we went to Lincoln last weekend and he worked terrible up there. Of course state NBHA fees were due the day we left for Lincoln, so now I either have to get Joker feeling great for a pen he doesn't like, or get Streak prepared. UGH. I really like pre-entries that are a week in advance, not 4 weeks.
I think a big part of the problem is that he hasn't had enough time off after you've pin pointed a problem. It sounds like you were asking yourself the question, "Is he still sore?" and then you go ahead and run him anyway, so now you are back at square one. I thought he looked sore before you had that fall, actually. I think right now you are just taking shots in the dark trying to figure out what's wrong, and then even if you have it nailed down, you aren't giving him enough time off after he's injected. I assume you still had to keep him legged up after he was injected, and you ran him 10 days later. Your idea of taking him to a new vet sounds like a good one. I'd just wipe the slate clean and start from square one with a good vet who has a good reputation for evaluating and treating lameness. If the vet finds something and treats it and says he needs say 2-3 months off, err on the long side and give him 3 months off.
I have another question: Is Joker your "old reliable" rodeo horse? Has he been sound? |
|
| |
|
 Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | You want brutal honesty? You knowingly admit through your posts that this horse has continued to be sore and has you stumped. So why are you still running him and hoping for the best?
If you are serious about getting this figured out, you need to back off until you do. Running him over and over while not knowing for sure why he is hurting is not only a waste of your time and money, but detrimental and unfair to your horse.
Just my opinion, but you need to get off of him, cut him some slack, and get it figured out since it's very obvious he is still a very sore horse. Don't hesitate to get a different vet and different opinions. |
|
| |
|
Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | I would be taking him to a university or hospital where they have the ability to utilize diagnostic imaging to confirm what is at the root of the soreness from a pathology standpoint.
I don't think going back to your local vet would be prudent at this point in time |
|
| |
|
Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | BTW to answer the OP:
I do think he looks sore... he swaps leads with the hind and looks like he is sort stepping while traveling to the first barrel, and then hopping around the barrels, too.
His front looks sore also. Looks like that is why he steps out on the third and goes a little wide. Could be from compensating for his hind end soreness but could also be another issue.
Hope you get him figured out! He looks like he's really trying but in pain.... does not look like he's cheating you at all. |
|
| |
|
Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | Joker is my old reliable but I can't put a lot of runs on him because he's 21 now. He just can't handle an intense schedule and it seems like 3 runs in a weekend is too much for him. I have until next Monday to draw Chance out of state NBHA if I don't think Streak will be ready so at least there's that "silver lining."
Chance hasn't run hardly at all this year - 8 runs total. When I'm being told by more than one vet that he's OK to run, I don't feel like I've been stupid for running a few times with what I knew at the time. Now it looks like I was stupid to even try and run him at all this year or last. But hindsight is always 20/20.
I was told by the vet who did Chance's injections that 12 days after injections was about perfect timing to run him, otherwise I wouldn't have taken him to Lincoln at all. Heck the chiropractor/vet who initially found the SI soreness said I could run him four days later. But I didn't. I subbed Joker in at that weekend's races and gave Chance complete rest until 5 days after his SI injections. He had no forced exercise between March 15th and April 6th. NONE. I didn't ride him or even pony him with the others.
If you all thought he was sore last summer, why the heck was that never mentioned when I posted videos from August trying to figure out why we weren't placing at rodeos? Why is everyone attacking me now when they had the opportunity to mention all the things they think have been wrong for a year a long time ago? I guess I'm just frustrated by the whole situation. I don't want to run a sore horse but I'm not a lameness expert so I can't tell when the lameness isn't obvious just riding at home or by watching a video of him running. Believe me, I watch his videos 700 times but I apparently just don't have the eye for stuff like others do. |
|
| |
|
 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | I dont think she asked for BRUTAL honesty? Maybe a little advice but I agree in part with HBL and MissR- and some of the others. I know many who keep running and hoping, she is not the only one who does this:)
Also- it is not feesable for most to do an MRI if they dont have insurance, a rich husband, a trust fund or a high paying job but that would be a great tool to use- believe me- I wish I could use an MRI as part of a prepurchase exam after having 5 done over the years.
I say go to a vet with a Lameness Locator- there are three in NE Okla and it would be worth the money (which isnt huge $$) and you may be able to determine if the front is primary or secondary as well as the hocks ect. |
|
| |
|
Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | rodeowithjoker - 2014-04-22 9:25 AM Joker is my old reliable but I can't put a lot of runs on him because he's 21 now. He just can't handle an intense schedule and it seems like 3 runs in a weekend is too much for him. I have until next Monday to draw Chance out of state NBHA if I don't think Streak will be ready so at least there's that "silver lining."
Chance hasn't run hardly at all this year - 8 runs total. When I'm being told by more than one vet that he's OK to run, I don't feel like I've been stupid for running a few times with what I knew at the time. Now it looks like I was stupid to even try and run him at all this year or last. But hindsight is always 20/20.
I was told by the vet who did Chance's injections that 12 days after injections was about perfect timing to run him, otherwise I wouldn't have taken him to Lincoln at all. Heck the chiropractor/vet who initially found the SI soreness said I could run him four days later. But I didn't. I subbed Joker in at that weekend's races and gave Chance complete rest until 5 days after his SI injections. He had no forced exercise between March 15th and April 6th. NONE. I didn't ride him or even pony him with the others.
If you all thought he was sore last summer, why the heck was that never mentioned when I posted videos from August trying to figure out why we weren't placing at rodeos? Why is everyone attacking me now when they had the opportunity to mention all the things they think have been wrong for a year a long time ago? I guess I'm just frustrated by the whole situation. I don't want to run a sore horse but I'm not a lameness expert so I can't tell when the lameness isn't obvious just riding at home or by watching a video of him running. Believe me, I watch his videos 700 times but I apparently just don't have the eye for stuff like others do.
First of all, don't come on here attacking the board members for not point out LAST SUMMER that your horse was sore. It is not our job to tell you, and we are not vets. Also, many of us, myself included, have not even kept up with your posts so know nothing about your situation. I for one don't spend much time on here except for early morning or late night when I have a few minutes. I work three jobs and train my own horses, and haul down the road every weekend.
I do have a few questions for you, how old are you? I think you sound very young, I would guess 18-25. I could be wrong. The reason I ask is because you are so worried about the here and now. You have your whole life ahead of you to run barrels. You had better figure out real quick that there is a time and a place to back off, take a break, and stop worrying about making the next race at all costs. If one horse is too old, one is too young, and one is too sore, then stay home.
My current open horse is running solid 1D. He would have been 6th out of 220 last saturday had I not kicked over the third barrel. He was in the top 5 in the 1D on two other runs, and won the 2D against some very very tough horses a few weeks ago. He has every right to be running the BBR finals but I have learned the hard way when to say no and bide my time and patience. I just had surgery in March and I knew it was not going to be fair to point him to the BBR finals with everything going on, even though he's running better then ever.
Take a deep breath, quit worrying about making the next race, and figure out your horse before it's too late. |
|
| |
|
 Living within my means
Posts: 5128
Location: Randolph, Utah | I would get a second opinion from a different vet than you have been going to.
Sometimes it's worth hauling a few hours to get a 2nd opinion from a good equine vet.
And I would turn him out until you can get into a vet and get some answers. |
|
| |
|
Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | TurnLane - 2014-04-22 9:29 AM I dont think she asked for BRUTAL honesty? Maybe a little advice but I agree in part with HBL and MissR- and some of the others. I know many who keep running and hoping, she is not the only one who does this:)
Also- it is not feesable for most to do an MRI if they dont have insurance, a rich husband, a trust fund or a high paying job but that would be a great tool to use- believe me- I wish I could use an MRI as part of a prepurchase exam after having 5 done over the years.
I say go to a vet with a Lameness Locator- there are three in NE Okla and it would be worth the money (which isnt huge $$) and you may be able to determine if the front is primary or secondary as well as the hocks ect.
I agree, but I use the term brutal honesty to prepare the OP for what I'm about to say because I don't feel like it would come across as pleasant.
And trust me, I feel you on the MRI. I can't afford one. My best mare was never lame, but was hitting barrel really bad for a long time. We kept doing xrays and I only ran her a handful of times over the course of two years after certain treatments to see if they worked. Which they never did. I took her for a third set of xrays last August and you could finally see a very very slight change on one navicular bone. The best diagnosis tool would have been an MRI. I think they START at 2500. Now if she was my only horse I would have found a way to pay it to have any shot at keeping her going. But fortunately for me I have other horses to run. So I opted out of the MRI because the treatment plan would have been the same no matter what. She is now retired to a broodmare. Sound thankfully :)
I just feel like the OP is young and I don't want to see her learn the hard way to learn to take a deep breath and skip a few races for the sake of her horses. I know what it's like to want every single race. Been there, done that. But I've also learned the hard way to back off and that it pays more in the end to do so |
|
| |
|
Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | dianeguinn - 2014-04-21 5:28 PM He's still sore. On the first barrel, he's striding really short with his back feet....more up and down instead of forward....almost stabbing them...and then runs across the pen with both back feet together instead of using them separately to push...in fact, he's not wanting to use his back end much at all...I'd guess now maybe hocks need injected or stifles blistered or maybe both. And maybe get a new vet. 
I think I may have advised DG to try the Lameness Locator and it helped her from what she said with a horse that had hard to detect primary issues? And maybe a friend of hers as well. They went to Dr Propp in Pryor. And again- it is not too costly as a starting point. |
|
| |
|
Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | Also to the OP, are you happy and secure with your farrier and the work he is doing? I wouldn't know since I don't know you but sometimes poor shoeing/bad angles can account for soreness as well. |
|
| |
|
Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | TurnLane - 2014-04-22 9:41 AM dianeguinn - 2014-04-21 5:28 PM He's still sore. On the first barrel, he's striding really short with his back feet....more up and down instead of forward....almost stabbing them...and then runs across the pen with both back feet together instead of using them separately to push...in fact, he's not wanting to use his back end much at all...I'd guess now maybe hocks need injected or stifles blistered or maybe both. And maybe get a new vet.
I had a friend who used the lameness locater at Oak Ridge to pinpoint an issue with her 1D mare. Her vet bill was less than mine that day, and I only xrayed both front feet and ultrasounded a hock (ligament issue). So it's not as expensive as it sounds. More time consuming than anything depending on how hard it is to detect where they are sore. |
|
| |
|
Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Ok, I don't mean to sound rude about your vet, and this might not be the situation, but it happened to me so I am wary of it.
I almost wonder if your vet is stringing you along a bit.
Happened to me, so that is why I say this (colic, not lameness, but sort of similar sitch). My horse coliced month after month in a short period of time. My local vet kept coming out, charging me a mint, and treating the symptoms, but never mentioned to me that he needed diagnostics or that I needed to find the cause... he would sure take my money though. LOL... so eventually I did research on my own and took him to the university. I thought it would be cost prohibitive, but it wasn't. In the end it likely save my horse's life.
Anyway, some vets are all to happy to tell you what you want to hear so you keep coming back and don't seek answers elsewhere- thereby ensuring they get more of your money in the future. Not saying your vet is doing this to you, but it's possible- it happened to me! Also side note, I don't think I've seen your videos before the thread you posted the last time, so Idk if he was sore in the past. |
|
| |
|
Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | I wish we could find a support group that is kind and helpful rather than all knowing and rude----- I wonder where that place would be?  |
|
| |
|
 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| barrelracr131 - 2014-04-22 8:00 AM
I would be taking him to a university or hospital where they have the ability to utilize diagnostic imaging to confirm what is at the root of the soreness from a pathology standpoint.
I don't think going back to your local vet would be prudent at this point in time
^^^^^This.
I'd be on my way to Oklahoma or College Station to A&M. Sometimes, one or two vets just won't cut it. I want the whole team that TEACHES the vets. I've had three now that I've dumped out at A&M and said, "Keep them until you figure it out." Sometimes it's six hours, one time it was three days, but I had an answer and a treatment plan, either way, they found the problem, and each time it had been totally overlooked locally. Not every teaching facility is equal, either. My big brown gelding was one that CSU totally bombed, and A&M nailed the problem in two hours.
I plan on keeping this habit. $600 in diesel and $1500 in vet bills is often a lot cheaper then hauling and trying to henpeck a sore horse one injection at a time. That's my thought, having been here and done that. |
|
| |
|
Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | TurnLane - 2014-04-22 9:48 AM I wish we could find a support group that is kind and helpful rather than all knowing and rude----- I wonder where that place would be?
I may sound rude, but if I wasn't trying to be helpful I wouldn't be posting at all. Some times it is hard to sugar coat things when it comes to sore horses. Yes there are some very very rude things on this board. But I think sometimes my posts get mistaken as rude when they are more aggressive then anything.
If I didn't give a hoot, I wouldn't bother posting. |
|
| |
|
 Forever Young
Posts: 6768
Location: relocated to Texas | Melanie -
You really should consult your vet concerning this instead of asking for opinions here. I am sorry, but NO ONE can diagnose lameness from watching a video of a run. You can guess at what might be wrong, but you cannot diagnose it. Take him back to the vet who did the injections, or if you don't think you want to rely on his opinion, find another one and get a proper diagnosis. That would be my suggestion to you. Don't run this horse until you know he is sound, the horse's long term health is more important than missing a rodeo or two. |
|
| |
Folks on-line