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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
   
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR |
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 Expert
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Location: home for the winter...what a dumb idea | I am confused.... According to what I read in the links you provided and others the land was still open to horses and back packers. So why not just enjoy the land that way? I am sure you and you friends would never damage or hurt the land but please don't think others would not. ATV tare the land up make access to treasure hunters easier. There are lots of people who will take things from those Indian ruins and not look back or worry about some sickness they will sell them for $$ and go back for more. |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Rodeo_cowgirl - 2014-05-11 9:17 PM I am confused.... According to what I read in the links you provided and others the land was still open to horses and back packers. So why not just enjoy the land that way? I am sure you and you friends would never damage or hurt the land but please don't think others would not. ATV tare the land up make access to treasure hunters easier. There are lots of people who will take things from those Indian ruins and not look back or worry about some sickness they will sell them for $$ and go back for more.
Because the locals want it open to atv's for easy access for everyone, including those not able to walk or ride horses. We have been fighting for 'multiple use'...and this is an old road, one that was used often...how does an outside entity close a road next to a small town? What business is it of theirs?
Locks only keep honest people out...I know some people hate atv's...oh well, others hate horses, open spaces, cities...etc...
When the fed enforces the law concerning marijuana...then maybe I'll believe they can enforce other laws, however, remember that this road closure wasn't lawfully closed...it was a blm supervisor who had college students go around and put up closed signs at his own discretion.
We can't all be held hostage over artifacts...it's like the entire kindergarten class losing recess because one little kid was a jerk!
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1182
Location: Do I hear Banjos? | We are having similar issues here in Arkansas in the Ouachita National Forest. For many many years there were trails all throughout this area. Combinations of old logging roads and other trails. Folks could hike, ride horses, and yes...ATV's. The users kept the trails open and passable and clean. Hunters used them to gain better access to areas to deer hunt etc. All was happy in the land. Sure there are always jerks that leave trash etc. But those were BY FAR the minority and living out here the folks that we saw dumping trash were folks driving out in cars from the city to dump stuff. We sure have picked up a lot of trash. But we do it to help keep things nice.
Then suddenly the Forest Service (the feds)...decided that we wouldn't be allowed to riude ATV's on the roads or trails any more. Just a few small strips of road that made no sense and made it essentially impossible. And some roads were even closed to vehicles for certain months of the year. Only open in the winter...when it's most likely to be wet/muddy and get torn up...which makes NO sense.
There are NO ancient ruins...no special flora or fauna cited as the reason. The did it because they can. To preserve the forest. Ok...then WHY do they allow the lumber companys to come clear cut out here??? To re-plant only pines and destroy the natural ecosystem? Money...that's why.
Now those of us that do ride horses can't even use the trails very much. There aren't enough folks riding and using the trails and so they get overgrown. Trees fall and we can't carry chainsaws very well on horseback. We are gradually losing the trails. Which...I guess was their intent all along.
Makes me so frustrated. |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Good for you guys! But... now you are probably on the FBI target list. |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Whiteboy - 2014-05-12 8:26 AM Good for you guys! But... now you are probably on the FBI target list.
Naw...surely not. Lol...thing is, I didn't see anyone do anything illegal, immoral, destructive or rude!
I really have a question about federal laws if anyone can answer:
How is it that it's against federal law to use marijuana, yet, 2 states have legalized it?
All this talk of federal law trumping state law...do we just pick & choose?
Trail girl...good luck, the power base is changing in America.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 629
Location: Roping pen | No idea in your area, but here, the county maintains a record book of legal county roads. If this road is in this book, only way to close it, is by act of the county commission.
This book is in the recorders/land office in the local court house.
Counties get federal funding for the miles of county roads it has. We have roads here that haven't "been a road" for 100 years, but still on the books as a legal road so we can get more federal money. By law, these roads are open for the public's use. Might have to open a lot of gates to use them, but they are legal access.
As far as the ATV deal, we have had the same issue here. A few ruining it for all by driving off of the trail.
Edited by Spin Doctor 2014-05-12 10:55 AM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | If you end up in jail, I may be there with ya.... I got a letter in the mail and a flyer on my door from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TX version of the EPA) wanting to come onto my property and collect soil samples. Said they were coming whether I signed the consent form or not. This is because of a wood treatment plant a couple miles down the road that closed in '85.... |
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 Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | CrossDRanch - 2014-05-12 11:04 AM If you end up in jail, I may be there with ya.... I got a letter in the mail and a flyer on my door from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TX version of the EPA) wanting to come onto my property and collect soil samples. Said they were coming whether I signed the consent form or not. This is because of a wood treatment plant a couple miles down the road that closed in '85....
Trespassing comes to mind. Which is illegal. Also, I would inform the County Sherriff and see what He/She has to say in regards to Private Property. |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Spin Doctor - 2014-05-12 9:53 AM No idea in your area, but here, the county maintains a record book of legal county roads. If this road is in this book, only way to close it, is by act of the county commission. This book is in the recorders/land office in the local court house. Counties get federal funding for the miles of county roads it has. We have roads here that haven't "been a road" for 100 years, but still on the books as a legal road so we can get more federal money. By law, these roads are open for the public's use. Might have to open a lot of gates to use them, but they are legal access. As far as the ATV deal, we have had the same issue here. A few ruining it for all by driving off of the trail.
Never heard of that here. The county keeps records, thing is, a blm supervisor decided on his own to close this road (discrecionary closure), they do a lot of that here, so it's not a 'law' it was a temporary closure so they could 'investigate' it. For 7 years! The 2 men who fixed the road in 2006 were charged a $35k fine apiece (!), what they did was move some small rocks a build a bridge out of metal so the atv's could go over the creek instead of through it, it was supposed to be an improvement. They did not build a new road as some think.
Who was in office in 2006? The enviros weren't getting heard as much. The real problem is that each administration appoints whoever they want to further an agenda...a political agenda, not a public or constitutional agenda...it's nothing more than salt in a wound with each 'change', back to the drawing board...justification for pitting us against each other & lining pockets. It's sickening.
We the people are the losers here. All of us.
The USGS & GLO were once answerable to Congress, they were both created to handle the purchase of land by the U.S. gov't...the GLO eventually became the BLM (1946) and was moved under the Dept. of Interior which is not answerable to Congress or the people. Once a state was formed then the 'territorial land within' became part of the state...it was no longer a territory! THIS is what people can't process...we have no territorial land any longer. All jurisdiction & authority lies with the county & state. We've been intimidated & lied to.
It's no different than a policeman asking to search your vehicle...he can do this if you allow it, you can also say "No". We're simply...finally...saying "No".
Nobody broke any laws.
Bundy's are in a similar situation as far as requesting a final determination on jurisdiction. Believe me, they planned for this for many years as it's not been possible for the people to get this info out there & in the proper courts...of course, we all know now how the media led them to slaughter with the 'racist' comment that was taken out of context...the damage was done, but, many of us still support the original complaint against the fed. Even if they were racist (they arent) that wouldn't strip them of their Constitutional Rights...or would it?
Don't forget the 1st Amendment Zone that the fed created in Nevada...as if it's still territorial land. What happens out here will have a huge impact on the rest of the world....what we lose everyone loses...
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | foundation horse - 2014-05-12 10:18 AM CrossDRanch - 2014-05-12 11:04 AM If you end up in jail, I may be there with ya.... I got a letter in the mail and a flyer on my door from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TX version of the EPA) wanting to come onto my property and collect soil samples. Said they were coming whether I signed the consent form or not. This is because of a wood treatment plant a couple miles down the road that closed in '85.... Trespassing comes to mind. Which is illegal. Also, I would inform the County Sherriff and see what He/She has to say in regards to Private Property.
I'm with FH. |
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Grammar Expert
| So, what did the protest get you?
I understand where you are coming from - I grew up in California riding my horses and dirt bikes on trails and in the riverbed, etc., and it was awesome. And then hundreds of other people did the same thing I did and ruined it because an area can only support so much "recreation."
I've been reading Storm over Rangelands and it's almost changing my mind - and I say almost - because everything changes, everything. Including the "public" lands, which activists are basically in charge of right now. I think your time and energy would have been better spent taking your ATVs to the State Capitol and asking your representatives for their time. If I'm not mistaken, Utah is already taking the BLM to court over federal land - no? So, back them up, go to them, support them, but just breaking the law for any reason is just what the Occupiers did in many cities and I recall many of you on here up in arms about those nasty, filthy law breakers...............??
I would love to see more lands open. Where were we when they shut them down in the first place? Have we been as active as the activists? I doubt it, since most of us work for a living.
Your comment about people taking relics from ancient sites and selling them and supporting their family doing so is like a quaint little story from the 30s but the facts are that people aren't the same as they were in the 30s, they will tear stuff up to get to it, tear it up to get it out of the ground and then sell it to make a profit, not feed six children. Life is different.
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Grammar Expert
| I also don't know any trail that will be open to ATVs AND Horses and frankly I wouldn't want to come around a corner and meet an ATV going to fast and freaking out my horse or if I were on the ATV I wouldn't want to do that to someone else. ATVs are very destructive, I don't even like riding them on my own property very often. |
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Grammar Expert
| CrossDRanch - 2014-05-12 10:04 AM If you end up in jail, I may be there with ya.... I got a letter in the mail and a flyer on my door from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TX version of the EPA) wanting to come onto my property and collect soil samples. Said they were coming whether I signed the consent form or not. This is because of a wood treatment plant a couple miles down the road that closed in '85....
They are likely trying to determine damage to soil via chemicals and whatever was used at the wood treatment plant and how far the damage has spread. I would think you would WANT them there to test it and let you know.
Or do you think it's more sinister than that? |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | smiley - 2014-05-12 11:56 AM So, what did the protest get you?
I understand where you are coming from - I grew up in California riding my horses and dirt bikes on trails and in the riverbed, etc., and it was awesome. And then hundreds of other people did the same thing I did and ruined it because an area can only support so much "recreation."
I've been reading Storm over Rangelands and it's almost changing my mind - and I say almost - because everything changes, everything. Including the "public" lands, which activists are basically in charge of right now. I think your time and energy would have been better spent taking your ATVs to the State Capitol and asking your representatives for their time. If I'm not mistaken, Utah is already taking the BLM to court over federal land - no? So, back them up, go to them, support them, but just breaking the law for any reason is just what the Occupiers did in many cities and I recall many of you on here up in arms about those nasty, filthy law breakers...............??
I would love to see more lands open. Where were we when they shut them down in the first place? Have we been as active as the activists? I doubt it, since most of us work for a living.
Your comment about people taking relics from ancient sites and selling them and supporting their family doing so is like a quaint little story from the 30s but the facts are that people aren't the same as they were in the 30s, they will tear stuff up to get to it, tear it up to get it out of the ground and then sell it to make a profit, not feed six children. Life is different.
For the first time in my life people are reading the Constitution, they're studying our history, trying to understand the role of our gov't in our lives...this is what these protests are 'getting us'. The schools sure aren't teaching it.
It's a sad day in Amerika when we find we've become a real time "Survivor!" show with 'alliances' and such. Here's an info piece from a friend that explains the local mind set & what we've been up against:
http://thepetroglyph.com/blm-director-juan-palma-is-biased-incompetent-and-negligent/
This has been going on for 7 years....the blm won't move forward.
Please know that we no longer have 'territorial lands'...this muscle flexing by the fed is just fear tactics, they have no jurisdiction, otherwise I'm pretty sure they would have shown a strong presence in that canyon, writing tickets, arresting us, wearing uniforms, badges & guns.
Here's an article from yesterday...that's me & my folks on the mule, hubby on a 4-wheeler behind us...funny. The comments are interesting, too...more & more of us are sick & tired of the gov't declaring war on the people.
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=29864364&nid=148
Edited by musikmaker 2014-05-13 9:07 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | smiley - 2014-05-12 1:01 PM
CrossDRanch - 2014-05-12 10:04 AM If you end up in jail, I may be there with ya.... I got a letter in the mail and a flyer on my door from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TX version of the EPA) wanting to come onto my property and collect soil samples. Said they were coming whether I signed the consent form or not. This is because of a wood treatment plant a couple miles down the road that closed in '85....
They are likely trying to determine damage to soil via chemicals and whatever was used at the wood treatment plant and how far the damage has spread. I would think you would WANT them there to test it and let you know.
Or do you think it's more sinister than that?
That would be great if they came in test our soil and water and cleaned up the mess. But it never seems to work that way.... Always seems that property gets fenced off, or I am told I have to pay for the clean up, etc. Meanwhile, the govt agency is in charge of our water supply, and my tap water looks like I scooped it out of the pond. |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Any charges yet?!
Edited by Whiteboy 2014-05-13 10:59 AM
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | CrossDRanch - 2014-05-13 9:31 AM smiley - 2014-05-12 1:01 PM CrossDRanch - 2014-05-12 10:04 AM If you end up in jail, I may be there with ya.... I got a letter in the mail and a flyer on my door from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality (TX version of the EPA) wanting to come onto my property and collect soil samples. Said they were coming whether I signed the consent form or not. This is because of a wood treatment plant a couple miles down the road that closed in '85.... They are likely trying to determine damage to soil via chemicals and whatever was used at the wood treatment plant and how far the damage has spread. I would think you would WANT them there to test it and let you know.
Or do you think it's more sinister than that? That would be great if they came in test our soil and water and cleaned up the mess. But it never seems to work that way.... Always seems that property gets fenced off, or I am told I have to pay for the clean up, etc. Meanwhile, the govt agency is in charge of our water supply, and my tap water looks like I scooped it out of the pond.
Why am I not surprised in regards to the TCEQ's Behavior. This State Environmental Agency does not have the best of reputations. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 101
Location: would like to be where it does not snow | The BLM and the so called government of the once United States is on a power control mission most certainly in the Western part of the country. |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Whiteboy - 2014-05-13 9:58 AM Any charges yet?!
Not yet...they're sure threatening to...on the news. If they were a real law enforcement agency they would have done it there. It's just posturing. Idk...I think I'll choose to sit any fine out in jail. I hope everyone does...that is IF they can prove jurisdiction, which, I don't believe they can.
I've read quite a few of the news articles & they differ so much...change, add drama and lies daily....it looks by most comments that people are seeing that, too.
We have a county master plan that must be taken into consideration when it comes to land management...so it might be a costly & drawn out thing, but, we'll win in the long run...in the meantime, I believe we should continue 'hunting' vs being 'hunted'...any takers??? Lol...grap your guts on the way out the door!
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