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 Born not Made
Posts: 2930
   
Location: North Dakota | Three 4 Luck - 2014-07-07 12:55 PM Fixing soundness problems is like peeling onions. It's very common to fix one part, only to discover an issue somewhere else that didn't show up until the part that hurt worse was feeling better. Horses are awesome at compensating, but it makes it really hard on their humans.
Ugggggg, tell me about it. I fix one thing and then something else pops up. 
If he wasn't such a pleasant horse to be around, and such a versatile athlete (I can place in Western Pleasure locally, for crying out loud), I would have gotten rid of him a long time ago. But he's such a good horse that if I can just fix his body .......
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
 
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I watched the videos, and the front end lameness is not as obvious, this can be a few reasons, camera angle, soreness in different areas ie hocks, the more runs a horse has the more inflammation occurs therefore increased pain, and harder ground can show more lameness.
Also you said that you had just modified his feet, this could cause the pain, you also said you modified his feet due to pain, the pain may need to be addressed by antiinflammatories, injections, etc
In the video the second one, the only hint of front end soreness was his feet are not landing properly.
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 802
| r_beau - 2014-07-07 9:37 AM
I have recently put him back into a 2 degree wedge pad (about 2 to 3 weeks ago). We discovered a slight "off" to his front end last year that the wedges helped. I tried a regular shoe this year to see if it would do the trick, but it did not. He still feels slightly off to me, but it is better this week than it was last week, which was better than the week before. I'm really watching him closely, but he does seem to be improving now that I've got him back in the wedges again.
Vet's theory is that he is slightly pigeon-toed and his joint spaces are slightly crooked in his pasterns, which is putting slight uneven pressure to cause the soreness. Left is slightly worse than right. X-rays have not changed after a year's time (we redid them this year) so it doesn't appear to be progressing, which is good.
I am assuming you put wedges on for coffin bone dropping? In the rads did you see any changes in the pastern joint - osteophytes, enthesiophytes? That may be the front end issue, but it gets missed sometimes because we get carried away looking at P3. You mentioned that "nothing has changed since last year" can't tell if you are referring to the joint space or not. Even if nothing has changed since last year, if he is still sore, and there is calcification, that may be the issue.
ETA just saw your next post that you are not looking for comments on the front end issues, sorry, but in my experience if the issue is in the pastern the wedges won't make a difference if there is already bony change. I will leave this up in case anyone else is interested tho. Good luck with him
Edited by sweetjet 2014-07-07 3:17 PM
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Born not Made
Posts: 2930
Location: North Dakota | No biggie. It's a lameness thread now so have at it. 
Coffin bone has not dropped.
Last year when I brought him specifically for the front end lameness problem, we only had to nerve block once to "cure" him so we know it is heel pain. We did the wedges to relieve the heel pain. His left front was worse than his right front. My farrier also slightly displaces his left front shoe to the outside to help him land/load more evenly. Up until last year, he had always been barefoot. When we determined he had heel pain, I put on front shoes with a 2 degree wedge pad. (No hind shoes initially but added them later for traction.) We put the shoes on, I gave him a week off per the vet's orders with bute every day, and then went back to riding him. Fixed it 100%. This year I tried just doing regular shoes all the way around with no wedge pad. Figured I didn't know if regular shoes would work until we tried it. He went back to being "off" with regular shoes so I put the wedges back on about 3 weeks ago. He had 1 1/2 weeks of rest before they got put on, so I guess I wasn't entirely convinced they were doing the job they were supposed to do when I didn't feel that same immediate improvement that I did last year.
These are the x-rays from last year from his left front foot. I can get a copy of the most recent ones, but we did put them up side by side and they were identical. With these x-rays from last year, he was at about 7 or 8 weeks after a trim which is a long for him. I usually NEVER let him get past 6 weeks at the very longest (try to keep a schedule of every 5 weeks as best I can) but that's just how my schedule worked out at the time.
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 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | Three 4 Luck - 2014-07-07 12:55 PM Fixing soundness problems is like peeling onions. It's very common to fix one part, only to discover an issue somewhere else that didn't show up until the part that hurt worse was feeling better. Horses are awesome at compensating, but it makes it really hard on their humans.
Ain't that the truth!!!!!
OP - in the second video you posted here, the thing I see is that he doesn't leave the 2nd & 3rd barrels completely on the left lead. He drops that lead with his hind legs and doesn't drive his left hind leg up under him to power through the turn. My gray has done that in the past and we got him adjusted, then injected his sacroiliac joints, then did the lameness locator and found that his feet were sore, so we injected coffin joints on 3 of the 4 feet and I'm keeping him shod with equipack in the front feet. He's been holding his leads and moving correctly the last couple months so I'm cautiously thinking we got everything addressed finally. I've also been having his shoes reset earlier....we are going 4 1/2 or 5 weeks instead of 6-7 weeks and that seems to be keeping things set up better. The big thing to me that indicates he's feeling good is that if I am leading him and push him to turn 90 or 180 degrees in a tight pivot, he's not limping or giving on those front feet. That hasn't always been the case.
Hopefully you can get to the bottom of your horse's issues. I know all too well how badly it stinks to be searching for answers. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
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I am not an X-ray guru but is there a pastern fracture, I see abnormalities on both X-rays in the same spot. |
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Worlds Greatest Laugh
Location: North Dakota | Personally...if it were me I would get a second opinion on those xrays. I seen an anomoly too. |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2930
Location: North Dakota | Here's the x-rays from June of the left front. He was in a regular rim shoe at the time. I added the 2 degree wedge pad after that.
I'll get pictures of his feet tonight. Maybe even a video of how he moves (might be difficult since I am by myself).
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 I Am Always Right
Posts: 4264
Location: stray dump capital of the world | cheryl makofka - 2014-07-07 7:17 PM I am not an X-ray guru but is there a pastern fracture, I see abnormalities on both X-rays in the same spot. 
To the OP, you came on asking on how to improve your runs. I think the advice you are getting is in earnest and helpful. While you may not like the thread changing to a lameness thread, if that is what they see (I can't get your video to load) then it gives you somewhere to start.
Edited by sophiebelle 2014-07-08 2:53 PM
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | sophiebelle - 2014-07-08 2:51 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-07-07 7:17 PM I am not an X-ray guru but is there a pastern fracture, I see abnormalities on both X-rays in the same spot.
Edited by WYOTurn-n-Burn 2014-07-08 3:03 PM
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 Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
Location: Sperry, OK | I think I see some ever so slight rotation of the conffin bone. Could just be angles being off, or could be nothing to worry about.. but it looks like it to me. |
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 Special Somebody
Posts: 3951
Location: Finally horseback again.... | Let me see if this works.
I am by no means a radiologist but Ive looked at a lot of x rays.
The areas I pointed to, raise questions.
The joint appears to have some calcification that makes the appear not smooth.
The other areas are what I believe may be the areas of concern the previous poster saw.
 (x ray 3.jpg)
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 x ray 3.jpg (79KB - 185 downloads)
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Canchasr1 - 2014-07-08 4:16 PM
Let me see if this works.
I am by no means a radiologist but Ive looked at a lot of x rays.
The areas I pointed to, raise questions.
The joint appears to have some calcification that makes the appear not smooth.
The other areas are what I believe may be the areas of concern the previous poster saw.
The seen the ones on the pastern but not on the coffin joint, thanks for placing the arrows, I haven't even figured out how to upload pictures or videos lol |
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Special Somebody
Posts: 3951
Location: Finally horseback again.... | cheryl makofka - 2014-07-08 4:40 PM Canchasr1 - 2014-07-08 4:16 PM Let me see if this works.
I am by no means a radiologist but Ive looked at a lot of x rays.
The areas I pointed to, raise questions.
The joint appears to have some calcification that makes the appear not smooth.
The other areas are what I believe may be the areas of concern the previous poster saw. The seen the ones on the pastern but not on the coffin joint, thanks for placing the arrows, I haven't even figured out how to upload pictures or videos lol
You are welcome.
Did I get them in the right spots? |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Canchasr1 - 2014-07-08 4:45 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-07-08 4:40 PM Canchasr1 - 2014-07-08 4:16 PM Let me see if this works.
I am by no means a radiologist but Ive looked at a lot of x rays.
The areas I pointed to, raise questions.
The joint appears to have some calcification that makes the appear not smooth.
The other areas are what I believe may be the areas of concern the previous poster saw. The seen the ones on the pastern but not on the coffin joint, thanks for placing the arrows, I haven't even figured out how to upload pictures or videos lol
Did I get them in the right spots?
I also seen something on the side view in the same area, but yes you did
Thanks again |
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 Poor Cracker Girl
Posts: 12150
Location: Feeding mosquitos, FL | Don't mind me. Just replying so I'll get an email when a new post pops up. Very curious to see feet photos. |
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  Ms. Marine
Posts: 4626
Location: Texas | He looks very sore on his front end. It was more noticeable to me in your pole bending video from the same day. |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2930
Location: North Dakota | So if that IS indeed a fracture .... is it normal to have it look the same over a year later? It is still there in the new X-rays that we did. Is there anythiing else is could be?
And he has always been sore on BOTH front feet. We've never done x-rays on the right front foot, because the left is always the worse one. Could he has a fracture in the right? What could be causing lameness in BOTH front feet?
Let me give you a timeline. I purchased him in May of 2012. He was a very fat 6-year-old who essentially was green broke. Hadn't been ridden a whole lot or consistently. I rode him just about every day that summer. Being in North Dakota, he had the winter off. In January of 2013, he cut up the front side of his left hock. Was on stall rest for over a month. Thankfully, healed up fine. Went to a reining trainer in May of 2013 where he got worked pretty hard. When I brought him home is when I first noticed him being "off" in his front end. Wasn't really sure if it was there until my mom said something. So I took him to the vet in July 2013 and that's when we did the x-rays and found the heel pain in both front feet, worse in the left. I put him in shoes for the first time (he had been barefoot his entire life) with the wedge pad. Gave him a week off and bute. Started riding him and he felt 100%. Then in Sept 2013 he started crossfiring in his barrel turns. Took him back to the vet and we could literally feel his right stifle catching. It didn't lock completely, but it would catch every couple steps when he walked. I tried to ride him over the winter to attempt to keep him legged up, but it was a horrible icy winter. Started riding again in March and we injected the right stifle towards the end of the month. Noticed it helped a little but not completely. Brought him back in June and found the fusing hocks. Injected those and it has been a HUGE improvement for the better.
Whew.
Okay, I took some pictures tonight. I'm also working on uploading some video. Again, I had put regular rim shoes on him this year until 3 weeks ago when we added the 2 degree wedge pad.
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Born not Made
Posts: 2930
Location: North Dakota | Here's one video:
http://youtu.be/o44d7ieOmUc
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I Am Always Right
Posts: 4264
Location: stray dump capital of the world | Bumping up for the morning group. |
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Folks on-line