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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
 
Location: Oklahoma | ThreeCorners - 2014-10-28 9:04 PM
Herbie - 2014-10-28 11:49 AM Unfortunately the drug problem exceed the confines of the racetrack world. According to WPRA, of the horses that were tested at WPRA events in 2015, right at 20% tested positive with a Class 1 or Class 2 medication violation. When this was addressed there were several members (some prominent) that were very adamnatly against the WPRA drug testing their horses. One walked out, and three others were very outspoken about their stance on this subject. One former world champion and current NFR qualifer went so far as to say "i'll do what I want and just pay the fine" during the members meeting. This saddens me for our sport as well.Â
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Hmmmm. There is only one there that I can see doing that. Â
That's just really, really sad. I feel sorry for the people that idolize these types of people and I hope that it is because of lack of knowledge and don't share the "to win at all costs" attitude. | |
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 Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
   
Location: Broxton, Ga | Herbie - 2014-10-27 12:49 PM
Unfortunately the drug problem exceed the confines of the racetrack world. According to WPRA, of the horses that were tested at WPRA events in 2015, right at 20% tested positive with a Class 1 or Class 2 medication violation. When this was addressed there were several members (some prominent) that were very adamnatly against the WPRA drug testing their horses. One walked out, and three others were very outspoken about their stance on this subject. One former world champion and current NFR qualifer went so far as to say "i'll do what I want and just pay the fine" during the members meeting. This saddens me for our sport as well.Â
Â
You're spot on..... | |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | komet. - 2014-10-28 9:45 PM SC Wrangler - 2014-10-28 6:55 PM I believe that racing will only be cleaned up when ALL the connections and the horses face mandatory sanctions to include stiff fines and long suspensions. I also think that sanctions imposed in one state will need to be upheld in all other racing jurisdictions. Only when peoples pocketbooks, livelyhoods and breeding programs are jeopardized are they going to begin play by the rules that us little people have always respected. Do you wanna clean it up? I mean really clean?? Start tacking prison terms to all that other stuff.... For the Vets, trainers AND owners.
Works for me!! | |
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 Namesless in BHW
Posts: 10368
Location: At the race track with Ah Dee Ohs | SC Wrangler - 2014-10-29 10:27 AM komet. - 2014-10-28 9:45 PM SC Wrangler - 2014-10-28 6:55 PM I believe that racing will only be cleaned up when ALL the connections and the horses face mandatory sanctions to include stiff fines and long suspensions. I also think that sanctions imposed in one state will need to be upheld in all other racing jurisdictions. Only when peoples pocketbooks, livelyhoods and breeding programs are jeopardized are they going to begin play by the rules that us little people have always respected. Do you wanna clean it up? I mean really clean?? Start tacking prison terms to all that other stuff.... For the Vets, trainers AND owners.
Heck I would settle for hefty fines and suspensions. AQHA and Jockey Club priveledges revoked also. | |
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 Saint Stacey
| CJE - 2014-10-29 6:08 AM
Herbie - 2014-10-27 12:49 PM
Unfortunately the drug problem exceed the confines of the racetrack world. According to WPRA, of the horses that were tested at WPRA events in 2015, right at 20% tested positive with a Class 1 or Class 2 medication violation. When this was addressed there were several members (some prominent) that were very adamnatly against the WPRA drug testing their horses. One walked out, and three others were very outspoken about their stance on this subject. One former world champion and current NFR qualifer went so far as to say "i'll do what I want and just pay the fine" during the members meeting. This saddens me for our sport as well.Â
Â
You're spot on.....
 Yep. I just love how many people on this site are so quick to point fingers at the race industry. But then they turn around and justify it in the barrel industry by either claiming people love their horses too much to needle them and they couldn't possibly hold up to that kind of abuse... or they justify it by saying the horse needs "meds" because of "problems" so it's okay because they simply can't let them sit. | |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | SKM - 2014-10-29 10:39 AM CJE - 2014-10-29 6:08 AM Herbie - 2014-10-27 12:49 PM Unfortunately the drug problem exceed the confines of the racetrack world. According to WPRA, of the horses that were tested at WPRA events in 2015, right at 20% tested positive with a Class 1 or Class 2 medication violation. When this was addressed there were several members (some prominent) that were very adamnatly against the WPRA drug testing their horses. One walked out, and three others were very outspoken about their stance on this subject. One former world champion and current NFR qualifer went so far as to say "i'll do what I want and just pay the fine" during the members meeting. This saddens me for our sport as well.
You're spot on..... Yep. I just love how many people on this site are so quick to point fingers at the race industry. But then they turn around and justify it in the barrel industry by either claiming people love their horses too much to needle them and they couldn't possibly hold up to that kind of abuse... or they justify it by saying the horse needs "meds" because of "problems" so it's okay because they simply can't let them sit.
Granted, I haven't gone thru the wpra list with a fine toothed comb...but I think it definitely needs work. I do remember looking at the bute, lasix and banamine regulations and thinking it wasn't realistic. Flame me if you will, but some bleeders require medications that they're not going to allow or allow in the dosage needed. For those that say those horses shouldn't be run, then what do you suggest is done with them? Become pasture ornaments? Not everyone can afford to just keep an unusable horse around. I would want to know exactly which med they gave before throwing someone under the bus. | |
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Saint Stacey
| Â Just for the sake of argument, let's talk about lasix. Let's say a girl enters 90+ times in the year and most of those runs are on a horse that needs lasix... can a person honestly justify needling a horse that often? I personally couldn't. Every time you enter that vein with a needle you cause scar tissue to develop. It's sad and disgusting to see the jugular on a horse that's been needled like that its entire life. It gets thick and knotted looking. I guess it boils down to what you as a person can live with when you look in the mirror. I understand that some need help. But at what point is the line drawn? There is a fine line between helping a horse and a person simply being selfish and abusing the use of meds. I see a lot of people that step over to the selfish side way too often and think nothing of it.
Edited by SKM 2014-10-29 11:24 AM
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  Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | I'm certainly not throwing anyone under the bus and I would agree with you in that it can be improved upon. Lasix, bute, and banamine are not what i'm most concerned about, but those too are abused unfortunately. I think what bothers me most is the blatent disrespect for authority and the "i'll do whatever I want" stance. There is a problem out there and unfortunately those who abuse the drugs that are meant to be beneficial when used correctly ruin it for the rest of us who do care about the long term health of our horses and choose not to run them when they're sore, injured, etc. | |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
Location: In The Land of Cotton | MS2011 - 2014-10-29 11:48 AM SKM - 2014-10-29 10:39 AM CJE - 2014-10-29 6:08 AM Herbie - 2014-10-27 12:49 PM Unfortunately the drug problem exceed the confines of the racetrack world. According to WPRA, of the horses that were tested at WPRA events in 2015, right at 20% tested positive with a Class 1 or Class 2 medication violation. When this was addressed there were several members (some prominent) that were very adamnatly against the WPRA drug testing their horses. One walked out, and three others were very outspoken about their stance on this subject. One former world champion and current NFR qualifer went so far as to say "i'll do what I want and just pay the fine" during the members meeting. This saddens me for our sport as well.
You're spot on..... Yep. I just love how many people on this site are so quick to point fingers at the race industry. But then they turn around and justify it in the barrel industry by either claiming people love their horses too much to needle them and they couldn't possibly hold up to that kind of abuse... or they justify it by saying the horse needs "meds" because of "problems" so it's okay because they simply can't let them sit.
You know - I just thought of this and you happened to mention bleeders - so not a pick at you.
But, if a horse bleeds bad enough and needs lasix for every run - would be nicer to the animal to find it a new job? IDK - but I am beginning to think we (in a whole) are over looking at what might be best for the animal. Would it be just like running something on pain killers? Same effect, cover up a problem.......................... | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 700
Location: Driving, Grooming, or Saddling for a Kid! | Wait....I thought lasix could be given in the muscle? | |
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Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | MS2011 - 2014-10-28 11:48 AM SKM - 2014-10-29 10:39 AM CJE - 2014-10-29 6:08 AM Herbie - 2014-10-27 12:49 PM Unfortunately the drug problem exceed the confines of the racetrack world. According to WPRA, of the horses that were tested at WPRA events in 2015, right at 20% tested positive with a Class 1 or Class 2 medication violation. When this was addressed there were several members (some prominent) that were very adamnatly against the WPRA drug testing their horses. One walked out, and three others were very outspoken about their stance on this subject. One former world champion and current NFR qualifer went so far as to say "i'll do what I want and just pay the fine" during the members meeting. This saddens me for our sport as well.
You're spot on..... Yep. I just love how many people on this site are so quick to point fingers at the race industry. But then they turn around and justify it in the barrel industry by either claiming people love their horses too much to needle them and they couldn't possibly hold up to that kind of abuse... or they justify it by saying the horse needs "meds" because of "problems" so it's okay because they simply can't let them sit.
If the horse is a true bleeder.........I am fine with lasix.........but there sure seems to be a lot of bleeders this days.........just saying.......as well as soreness.........banamine, bute, dex etc......and also COPD......aka ventipulmin........ | |
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Saint Stacey
| Â Herbie you are absolutely right. The attitude is disgusting. A lot of girls thinking nothing of blocking an injury so they can keep running. There is a lot that goes on and many are clueless. | |
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Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | DunIt - 2014-10-28 12:31 PM Wait....I thought lasix could be given in the muscle?
It can.........just further out..........as in time wise...... | |
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Saint Stacey
| DunIt - 2014-10-29 10:31 AM
Wait....I thought lasix could be given in the muscle?Â
 Does that make it any better if you run 90+ times a year? | |
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Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | SKM - 2014-10-28 12:21 PM Just for the sake of argument, let's talk about lasix. Let's say a girl enters 90+ times in the year and most of those runs are on a horse that needs lasix... can a person honestly justify needling a horse that often? I personally couldn't. Every time you enter that vein with a needle you cause scar tissue to develop. It's sad and disgusting to see the jugular on a horse that's been needled like that its entire life. It gets thick and knotted looking. I guess it boils down to what you as a person can live with when you look in the mirror. I understand that some need help. But at what point is the line drawn? There is a fine line between helping a horse and a person simply being selfish and abusing the use of meds. I see a lot of people that step over to the selfish side way too often and think nothing of it.
My mare has truly bled once........we ran her some on lasix........she hates a needle and I hated it too.....thankful I have not ran her on lasix and she has not bleed..........I do watch her and hope not to have to return to using Lasix.......... | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 700
Location: Driving, Grooming, or Saddling for a Kid! | I was just asking because your stand was what it did to the vein. You didnt say anything about what the drug did to the horse. So yeah if you go by the statment of what it does to the vein, then yes in the muscle is better. | |
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 Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
Location: Sperry, OK | SKM - 2014-10-29 11:38 AM DunIt - 2014-10-29 10:31 AM Wait....I thought lasix could be given in the muscle? Does that make it any better if you run 90+ times a year?
SKM.. not being ugly, seriously just curious. I know your daughter is on the WPRA trail, do you (or her) not give the horses she hauls anything?
In my opinion, if we are going to get this sticky on giving bute, banamine, lasix to horses that are running and working hard for us, then where on the selfish scale does that put joint supplements (injectable or oral), other oral supplements (for bleeding, or wind aid), theraplates, magnetic blankets, etc., to aid in their abilities/perfomance? Horses hauling up and down the road get body sore..even if they don't need anything for joint pain, or injury pain, they get muscle sore from the general workout of running at times. It would be like a human being in great shape, works out everyday at the gym with no side effects, but then runs a marathon and feels it for the next 3 days, and we don't allow them any ibuprophen because its selfish. Same for lasix, some horses just bleed, but if it can be managed with lasix, so it doesn't scar the lungs to cause suffering or injury that will later effect them, why not. Lasix can be given IM and PO as well, not just IV.
I know there are LOTS of drugs out there people use to get better results, from anabolic steroids, to mixed up concoctions.. and I DO think that is wrong, but to offer a couple of things that just aid in the general overall feeling good of the animal, I think we, as an association (which ever one you want to talk about) should be able to come to an understanding on what drugs can be used with withdrawl time and what drugs just can't be used period. And I think we should be able to do this without looking down our noses and thinking someone else is selfish and shouldn't do it to their horse, while we are behind the scenes possibly doing something to get the same results, just with a different method. | |
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Saint Stacey
| ACEINTHEHOLE - 2014-10-29 11:04 AM
SKM - 2014-10-29 11:38 AM DunIt - 2014-10-29 10:31 AM Wait....I thought lasix could be given in the muscle?  Does that make it any better if you run 90+ times a year?
In my opinion, if we are going to get this sticky on giving bute, banamine, lasix to horses that are running and working hard for us, then where on the selfish scale does that put joint supplements (injectable or oral), other oral supplements (for bleeding, or wind aid), theraplates, magnetic blankets, etc., to aid in their abilities/perfomance? Â Horses hauling up and down the road get body sore..even if they don't need anything for joint pain, or injury pain, they get muscle sore from the general workout of running at times. Â Â It would be like a human being in great shape, works out everyday at the gym with no side effects, but then runs a marathon and feels it for the next 3 days, and we don't allow them any ibuprophen because its selfish. Â Same for lasix, some horses just bleed, but if it can be managed with lasix, so it doesn't scar the lungs to cause suffering or injury that will later effect them, why not. Â Lasix can be given IM and PO as well, not just IV. Â
I know there are LOTS of drugs out there people use to get better results, from anabolic steroids, to mixed up concoctions.. and I DO think that is wrong, but to offer a couple of things that just aid in the general overall feeling good of the animal, I think we, as an association (which ever one you want to talk about) should be able to come to an understanding on what drugs can be used with withdrawl time and what drugs just can't be used period. Â And I think we should be able to do this without looking down our noses and thinking someone else is selfish and shouldn't do it to their horse, while we are behind the scenes possibly doing something to get the same results, just with a different method.
 We might give oral bute on occasion but it isn't very often. We use the PHT products a lot and Soft Rides. As for supplements, we use THE Muscle Mass with ulcer and joint. If we have a choice, we prefer to make a large electric pen at the rodeos and we put a bag of shavings out. Vegas always lays down in them. I do have all sorts of drugs. But I rarely use them. I am not big on needling one and only needle when absolutely necessary. I think you can accomplish more with the correct training program, feed program, shoeing, chiro care, the horses happiness and managing the way the muscles feel physically than simply resorting to meds to fix things. And giving time off when needed. Right now Vegas is on a 2 month rest before Denver. She needs it. We just really listen to her and watch her like a hawk fie the least little sign that something is off. We have an excellent support system in place. | |
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Saint Stacey
| Â Guess I didn't answer everything. I do feel meds have a place. But most are abused anymore and very few people actually know how to use them properly. I'm all for alternative help that doesn't mask issues. Most meds are now used to mask a problem, not to fix it. I have no problem with magnets, lasers, massage, etc. I think oral supplements can go either direction. They can help or they can harm depending on how they are used and mixed. Most people seem to want a quick fix. I don't believe it works that way. I'm a hands on type of person. Literally. I am always feeling muscles and watching the way of travel. If one of our horses short steps an 8th of an inch, I will notice. If I don't like what a vet says, I get a second opinion. If something doesn't work, I change it. | |
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Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
Location: Sperry, OK | SKM - 2014-10-29 12:49 PM Guess I didn't answer everything. I do feel meds have a place. But most are abused anymore and very few people actually know how to use them properly. I'm all for alternative help that doesn't mask issues. Most meds are now used to mask a problem, not to fix it. I have no problem with magnets, lasers, massage, etc. I think oral supplements can go either direction. They can help or they can harm depending on how they are used and mixed. Most people seem to want a quick fix. I don't believe it works that way. I'm a hands on type of person. Literally. I am always feeling muscles and watching the way of travel. If one of our horses short steps an 8th of an inch, I will notice. If I don't like what a vet says, I get a second opinion. If something doesn't work, I change it.
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