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 I am Woman hear me Roar
Posts: 3395
   
Location: Choctaw, Oklahoma | ECJR! Even if she has old injuries there could be scar tissue causing pain. I had a mare that had been ran into the dirt by previous owners. I traded her and the new owner discovered old stifle injuries. ECJR changed everything for the mare. She is now clocking 1D times. In pens where they ran her often, she will give a fit at the alley but she is sound. Keep at it and give her more time! Keep her nice and calm. Sometimes they tell you when they are ready. Her confidence in you will grow and she'll let you know  | |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
 
Location: Oklahoma | JRust - 2015-01-01 4:35 PM
ECJR! Even if she has old injuries there could be scar tissue causing pain. I had a mare that had been ran into the dirt by previous owners. I traded her and the new owner discovered old stifle injuries. ECJR changed everything for the mare. She is now clocking 1D times. In pens where they ran her often, she will give a fit at the alley but she is sound. Keep at it and give her more time! Keep her nice and calm. Sometimes they tell you when they are ready. Her confidence in you will grow and she'll let you know
What the heck is ECJR? | |
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I am Woman hear me Roar
Posts: 3395
Location: Choctaw, Oklahoma | http://www.equidite.com/ecjr/
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 926
| canchaser24 - 2015-01-01 9:50 AM
I say switch directions. If she's a righty make her a lefty. If she's a lefty make her a righty. Start completely over and changer her brain. Maybe her mind is focused on the pain and it's not there. Change directions and see if that helps. Along with continuing the rehab through the pain ??
This was my thought. As for the slow work, who knows how much she was slow worked before, but most likely she associates pain with running. So when she goes to the alley she thinks pain before she even goes.
If she's been in pain for a while 2 months may not be long enough. Maybe for the pain, but not for the mental stuff. Personally, I think every 'bad horse' or 'alley issue' is a result of pain.
Try to switch her, so you can maybe at least get her around a barrel a time or 2 and let her see it doesn't work. Might even bute her before you go just to make sure there are not even any hint of an ache.
Good Luck!
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  Sock eating dog owner
Posts: 4557
Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | Have you checked her feet? Perhaps her shoes are too small.Like people some times we need play time. | |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | Dreamingofcans - 2015-01-01 2:43 AM
WrapSnap - 2015-01-01 2:07 AM It can be done. I have one now that went through the ringer. I spent a year putting that sucker back together. Came back around to being a solid 2D horse at the major shows. Of course, then he slipped at the first barrel at a show earlier this year and injured himself. Now, that year of trusting that setting down and turning does not equal pain is all out the window. Thankfully, I know how nice this one can be and as long as the owners are willing, I'm slowly but surely trying to get him right yet again.
Oh my gosh I need to hear more stories like this! Y'all keep em coming! I believe this horse can make a recovery and be a pretty jam up horse, but I keep having these doubts.Â
WrapSnap, how did you rehab that horse on the pattern? Just lots of slow work or taking them off the pattern for a while? Â
After addressing the horse's physically needs, I had to start addressing the psychological needs. As with many things, I can only assume what was done with the horse to try and fix the issues that were being had on pattern. This particular horse was running up the fence. About 2/3 of the way to the first barrel, he would get very chargey. This is common. They learn to try and run off, rather than have to set down behind and hurt themselves more. Most people go to setting them in the ground harder at this point, to instill rate. I would think that was the case with my horse. I spent a lot of time walking to that point, stopping and camping out. In the beginning, the only way that I could stand in that spot and have him relax (i.e. not lunge, jump through the air, rear, etc...) was to stop him and then turn him around, so that he was facing away from the barrel.
Once he got to the point that he would walk to the first barrel and stand quietly, I started working very large circles around the first barrel. Big enough that he wasn't thinking "turn", but small enough that the barrel's existence wasn't completely irrelevant. I began at the walk. My focus was just to walk a nice, correct circle. If at any point he got hot, or nervous, I would move him away from the barrel a step, or two while maintaining the circle. When we could walk the circle in a calm fashion, I proceeded to the trot and began again. Once I could lope those circles, I started walking him through the pattern. Again, we walked to the spot that used to cause tension, stopped and settled and then would proceed forward. I worked up to where I could lope to that spot and do the same.
When I started hauling him again. I just exhibitioned him the first few times. Everything that I did was about keeping him calm. As I began to enter him, I would go out and ease him through at a high lope to the first, then let him have just one more gear through the rest of the pattern. Even when he wanted and seemed ready to go a bit harder, I stuck to that plan for a few more runs. At the NBHA World in 2013, I got a bit ahead of myself, allowed him to go to the first too hard and really rattled him. I came back in the 2nd Go and eased him up there. It didn't matter that it was such a big show. It was the move that I had to make in order to keep making progress. By February of this year, he was running in the 1D at smaller jackpots and was solidly in the 2D at 500 plus horse barrel races. I still spend a lot of time on this horse doing all of the things that I did to rehab him. For him, if he gets hot in the alley, I'm going to sit down and make him ease through. If I don't have his mind settled when I leave the alley, I have no chance of turning a decent first barrel. It's a super long process and it seems as though you're never totally beyond having to manage it, but it can be done. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 974
Location: USA | WrapSnap - 2015-01-01 8:58 PM Dreamingofcans - 2015-01-01 2:43 AM WrapSnap - 2015-01-01 2:07 AM It can be done. I have one now that went through the ringer. I spent a year putting that sucker back together. Came back around to being a solid 2D horse at the major shows. Of course, then he slipped at the first barrel at a show earlier this year and injured himself. Now, that year of trusting that setting down and turning does not equal pain is all out the window. Thankfully, I know how nice this one can be and as long as the owners are willing, I'm slowly but surely trying to get him right yet again. Oh my gosh I need to hear more stories like this! Y'all keep em coming! I believe this horse can make a recovery and be a pretty jam up horse, but I keep having these doubts.
WrapSnap, how did you rehab that horse on the pattern? Just lots of slow work or taking them off the pattern for a while? After addressing the horse's physically needs, I had to start addressing the psychological needs. As with many things, I can only assume what was done with the horse to try and fix the issues that were being had on pattern. This particular horse was running up the fence. About 2/3 of the way to the first barrel, he would get very chargey. This is common. They learn to try and run off, rather than have to set down behind and hurt themselves more. Most people go to setting them in the ground harder at this point, to instill rate. I would think that was the case with my horse. I spent a lot of time walking to that point, stopping and camping out. In the beginning, the only way that I could stand in that spot and have him relax (i.e. not lunge, jump through the air, rear, etc... ) was to stop him and then turn him around, so that he was facing away from the barrel. Once he got to the point that he would walk to the first barrel and stand quietly, I started working very large circles around the first barrel. Big enough that he wasn't thinking "turn", but small enough that the barrel's existence wasn't completely irrelevant. I began at the walk. My focus was just to walk a nice, correct circle. If at any point he got hot, or nervous, I would move him away from the barrel a step, or two while maintaining the circle. When we could walk the circle in a calm fashion, I proceeded to the trot and began again. Once I could lope those circles, I started walking him through the pattern. Again, we walked to the spot that used to cause tension, stopped and settled and then would proceed forward. I worked up to where I could lope to that spot and do the same. When I started hauling him again. I just exhibitioned him the first few times. Everything that I did was about keeping him calm. As I began to enter him, I would go out and ease him through at a high lope to the first, then let him have just one more gear through the rest of the pattern. Even when he wanted and seemed ready to go a bit harder, I stuck to that plan for a few more runs. At the NBHA World in 2013, I got a bit ahead of myself, allowed him to go to the first too hard and really rattled him. I came back in the 2nd Go and eased him up there. It didn't matter that it was such a big show. It was the move that I had to make in order to keep making progress. By February of this year, he was running in the 1D at smaller jackpots and was solidly in the 2D at 500 plus horse barrel races. I still spend a lot of time on this horse doing all of the things that I did to rehab him. For him, if he gets hot in the alley, I'm going to sit down and make him ease through. If I don't have his mind settled when I leave the alley, I have no chance of turning a decent first barrel. It's a super long process and it seems as though you're never totally beyond having to manage it, but it can be done.
The alley is a problem. She gets a little crazy and does these little "pop-ups" (it's not a really rearing, not sure what to call it). She wants to charge in and it takes everything to get her to slow lope, but it's not even that. She doesn't want me in her face, but I can't totally give her her head bc she'll take off to the barrel and then not turn it. At first she wouldn't even rate down for the turn. We worked on that in our previous slow work and she was starting to rate down. I don't know how to get her to chill in the alley. She gets all in her head and anxious and I can't break her out of it. I've tried vita-calm and it was a little better, but not by much. I was planning on starting her on some herbs to help her focus and stay relaxed, andalso a mare mix type formula. I just don't know what to do. I don't know how to break these habits. Like I said, she's been off for a few months - I figured I'd just let her act like a horse for a while. I've been doing some round pen join up work with her and her demeanor has seemed to change a little. She runs up to me in the pasture now and actually looks happy to see me. Before, she just looked angry all the time. I was going to get acupuncture and chiro again, but I wanted to have a gameplan on the training aspect lined up also. I'm just completely at a loss. All my trainer friends say sell, but I just can't give up on her yet. | |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | Dreamingofcans - 2015-01-01 9:56 PM
WrapSnap - 2015-01-01 8:58 PM Dreamingofcans - 2015-01-01 2:43 AM WrapSnap - 2015-01-01 2:07 AM It can be done. I have one now that went through the ringer. I spent a year putting that sucker back together. Came back around to being a solid 2D horse at the major shows. Of course, then he slipped at the first barrel at a show earlier this year and injured himself. Now, that year of trusting that setting down and turning does not equal pain is all out the window. Thankfully, I know how nice this one can be and as long as the owners are willing, I'm slowly but surely trying to get him right yet again. Oh my gosh I need to hear more stories like this! Y'all keep em coming! I believe this horse can make a recovery and be a pretty jam up horse, but I keep having these doubts.Â
WrapSnap, how did you rehab that horse on the pattern? Just lots of slow work or taking them off the pattern for a while? Â After addressing the horse's physically needs, I had to start addressing the psychological needs. As with many things, I can only assume what was done with the horse to try and fix the issues that were being had on pattern. This particular horse was running up the fence. About 2/3 of the way to the first barrel, he would get very chargey. This is common. They learn to try and run off, rather than have to set down behind and hurt themselves more. Most people go to setting them in the ground harder at this point, to instill rate. I would think that was the case with my horse. I spent a lot of time walking to that point, stopping and camping out. In the beginning, the only way that I could stand in that spot and have him relax (i.e. not lunge, jump through the air, rear, etc... ) was to stop him and then turn him around, so that he was facing away from the barrel. Once he got to the point that he would walk to the first barrel and stand quietly, I started working very large circles around the first barrel. Big enough that he wasn't thinking "turn", but small enough that the barrel's existence wasn't completely irrelevant. I began at the walk. My focus was just to walk a nice, correct circle. If at any point he got hot, or nervous, I would move him away from the barrel a step, or two while maintaining the circle. When we could walk the circle in a calm fashion, I proceeded to the trot and began again. Once I could lope those circles, I started walking him through the pattern. Again, we walked to the spot that used to cause tension, stopped and settled and then would proceed forward. I worked up to where I could lope to that spot and do the same. When I started hauling him again. I just exhibitioned him the first few times. Everything that I did was about keeping him calm. As I began to enter him, I would go out and ease him through at a high lope to the first, then let him have just one more gear through the rest of the pattern. Even when he wanted and seemed ready to go a bit harder, I stuck to that plan for a few more runs. At the NBHA World in 2013, I got a bit ahead of myself, allowed him to go to the first too hard and really rattled him. I came back in the 2nd Go and eased him up there. It didn't matter that it was such a big show. It was the move that I had to make in order to keep making progress. By February of this year, he was running in the 1D at smaller jackpots and was solidly in the 2D at 500 plus horse barrel races. I still spend a lot of time on this horse doing all of the things that I did to rehab him. For him, if he gets hot in the alley, I'm going to sit down and make him ease through. If I don't have his mind settled when I leave the alley, I have no chance of turning a decent first barrel. It's a super long process and it seems as though you're never totally beyond having to manage it, but it can be done.
Mine doesn't want me in his face either. I just have to keep ahold of him and deal. When he's quiet, he walks in, tips his nose right ever so slightly and lopes off. When it's bad, he would lunge and plunge up the alley, trying to rip the reins out of my hands. With one like this, I may go and just score the alley. Actually with him, I used to go during open arena and just walk in and out of the alley, then stand in the alley. In all honesty, it sounds to me like the mare may well have ulcers. My big, anxious guy has been treated and is currently ulcer free, but because of how nervous he gets when at a show, I give him a dose of Oxy Ulcer every day while on the road. I typically administer it about 2 hours before I should be running and it makes a huge difference in his behavior at the alley.
Before he got injured back in July, this is about where he had come to. This is three consecutive days of 2D runs at the Panty Raid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH92uSbFB6c&list=PLybFZ30vsPtz5pmRkX...
Edited by WrapSnap 2015-01-01 10:31 PM
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 Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
Location: Opelousas, LA | Don't give up! I have one that was so blown up that he would completely wash out and get the worst runny poop just tied to the trailer at a show. You could pretty much forget even riding him around much less going down the alley. I did most of my pattern work at home and when I hauled him I would just ride around and maybe pony another horse off of him. I have had him a year and a half and just made the first decent run about a month ago. Now that he is fixed I have to get in better shape to stay with him, lol.
When you are trying to bring one back that has been blown up I think treating ulcers is a must no matter if they show symptoms or not. Mine was pretty obvious when he was hauled but at home you would never know. Good luck with yours and never forget, baby steps ARE progress. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 974
Location: USA | Should I start her on an ulcer preventative or do the omeprazole or what? Can ulcers heal on their own if the horse is removed from the stressful situation and they get grass round the clock? She's also been on aloe vera juice for about 6 weeks now. I've also had her on some chinese herbs for body soreness for about that long too. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 974
Location: USA | WrapSnap - 2015-01-01 10:03 PM Dreamingofcans - 2015-01-01 9:56 PM WrapSnap - 2015-01-01 8:58 PM Dreamingofcans - 2015-01-01 2:43 AM WrapSnap - 2015-01-01 2:07 AM It can be done. I have one now that went through the ringer. I spent a year putting that sucker back together. Came back around to being a solid 2D horse at the major shows. Of course, then he slipped at the first barrel at a show earlier this year and injured himself. Now, that year of trusting that setting down and turning does not equal pain is all out the window. Thankfully, I know how nice this one can be and as long as the owners are willing, I'm slowly but surely trying to get him right yet again. Oh my gosh I need to hear more stories like this! Y'all keep em coming! I believe this horse can make a recovery and be a pretty jam up horse, but I keep having these doubts.
WrapSnap, how did you rehab that horse on the pattern? Just lots of slow work or taking them off the pattern for a while? After addressing the horse's physically needs, I had to start addressing the psychological needs. As with many things, I can only assume what was done with the horse to try and fix the issues that were being had on pattern. This particular horse was running up the fence. About 2/3 of the way to the first barrel, he would get very chargey. This is common. They learn to try and run off, rather than have to set down behind and hurt themselves more. Most people go to setting them in the ground harder at this point, to instill rate. I would think that was the case with my horse. I spent a lot of time walking to that point, stopping and camping out. In the beginning, the only way that I could stand in that spot and have him relax (i.e. not lunge, jump through the air, rear, etc... ) was to stop him and then turn him around, so that he was facing away from the barrel. Once he got to the point that he would walk to the first barrel and stand quietly, I started working very large circles around the first barrel. Big enough that he wasn't thinking "turn", but small enough that the barrel's existence wasn't completely irrelevant. I began at the walk. My focus was just to walk a nice, correct circle. If at any point he got hot, or nervous, I would move him away from the barrel a step, or two while maintaining the circle. When we could walk the circle in a calm fashion, I proceeded to the trot and began again. Once I could lope those circles, I started walking him through the pattern. Again, we walked to the spot that used to cause tension, stopped and settled and then would proceed forward. I worked up to where I could lope to that spot and do the same. When I started hauling him again. I just exhibitioned him the first few times. Everything that I did was about keeping him calm. As I began to enter him, I would go out and ease him through at a high lope to the first, then let him have just one more gear through the rest of the pattern. Even when he wanted and seemed ready to go a bit harder, I stuck to that plan for a few more runs. At the NBHA World in 2013, I got a bit ahead of myself, allowed him to go to the first too hard and really rattled him. I came back in the 2nd Go and eased him up there. It didn't matter that it was such a big show. It was the move that I had to make in order to keep making progress. By February of this year, he was running in the 1D at smaller jackpots and was solidly in the 2D at 500 plus horse barrel races. I still spend a lot of time on this horse doing all of the things that I did to rehab him. For him, if he gets hot in the alley, I'm going to sit down and make him ease through. If I don't have his mind settled when I leave the alley, I have no chance of turning a decent first barrel. It's a super long process and it seems as though you're never totally beyond having to manage it, but it can be done. Mine doesn't want me in his face either. I just have to keep ahold of him and deal. When he's quiet, he walks in, tips his nose right ever so slightly and lopes off. When it's bad, he would lunge and plunge up the alley, trying to rip the reins out of my hands. With one like this, I may go and just score the alley. Actually with him, I used to go during open arena and just walk in and out of the alley, then stand in the alley. In all honesty, it sounds to me like the mare may well have ulcers. My big, anxious guy has been treated and is currently ulcer free, but because of how nervous he gets when at a show, I give him a dose of Oxy Ulcer every day while on the road. I typically administer it about 2 hours before I should be running and it makes a huge difference in his behavior at the alley. Before he got injured back in July, this is about where he had come to. This is three consecutive days of 2D runs at the Panty Raid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH92uSbFB6c&list=PLybFZ30vsPtz5p...
I feel like when I keep ahold of her it just ****es her off even more. It's like a no win situation. If I let her go at the pace she wants to go at, she'll refuse to turn it. If I hold her back to slowly lope to the barrel, she still sometimes refuses to turn it. Holy cow I'm gonna start just trail riding. And (on a side note), I've done that with her to give her a change of scenery and she's TERRIBLE. Went on a 14 mile trail ride and this mare must've had a firecracker up her butt she wouldn't walk slow to save her life! | |
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Member
Posts: 36
| Rehabbing a horse takes so much. It took me 6 -8 months to get all the issues that were secondary to my gelding running in pain all straightened out. Between the ulcers, the bleeding, muscle and chiropractic issues, teeth. This lead to gate issues running up the fence, crashing barrels. It was the toughest 8 months and i thought I made a huge mistake. I switched directions, I hauled him for 6 months and just rode him up to the gate in cinched him and called it quits. I hauled and did time onlys. After having to put of 1 of my good horses down and my other good horse getting hurt all within a month of each other the fixer upper had to step up. He is now a pretty solid 1d horse. Walks in the arena and loves his job. No more ulcers, no more bleeding. Hocks and body are right.
Edited by TightJointsPlus 2015-01-02 1:02 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 974
Location: USA | So, y'all are saying to give her some more time, that it shouldn't take just 6-8 weeks to rehab them like I've been told? I'm really glad to hear that =) I hated the idea of just pouring more money down the drain by getting more xrays and chiro and stuff, but I just couldn't give up without feeling like I tried everything. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2154
Location: USA | Dreamingofcans - 2015-01-01 2:57 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-01-01 1:25 AM 2 months isn't that long. I know one person she did slow work for an entire year on a blown up horse and it worked. I've just had so many people tell me to get rid of her, that 2 months should have been enough to rehab her. It's so frustrating. I keep doubting that I'm doing the right thing, but giving up on her doesn't sit well either.
Don't give up. I ran my mare for several years when she was in pain and she would blow up at the first barrel. We were trying to find the issue and hock injections were not as widely done at the time. Finally did hock injections as a last rsort. I noticed a huge difference in her at home. It took almost a year before she would turn the first barrel correctly. Lots of non barrel work and when we did barrel work, it was a sudden last minute thing so she didn't have 'time' to think about it. Once she figured out she wasn't hurting, she ran like a freight train :). But getting past the memories is what took so long. Don't do barrles just yet. Take the barrels OUT of the arena. Trot and lope circles, trail ride, breeze her, etc... Do that for awhile. She has to be able to trust that she is not hurting and is therefore learning to trust you too. After a month or two or three, trot or lope an imaginary barrel pattern ( Again, NO barrels). If she does good, continue working her for several weeks to a couple months and then add ONLY one barrel to the arena. Work her in circles in both directions using only the one barrel. do that for a while, then add a second barrel and do figure eights, etc... You get the point. For some horses, I have found, the memory can be a powerful thing and the hardest to get past. But it can be done with time and patience. Good Luck
ETA: Just read one of your last posts. My mare pops up in the alley way now but only because she WANTS to go in and run. I found that me being in her face does not help. If I stay out of her face, she will start running when she is ready and she doesn't pop up in the alley.
Edited by canrunnr 2015-01-02 10:23 AM
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 Namesless in BHW
Posts: 10368
Location: At the race track with Ah Dee Ohs | I would have her scoped for uclers and go from there. 6-8 weeks isn't alot of down time. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 974
Location: USA | So y'all think at least another 4 months or so off from he barrel pattern and do something else, then maybe slowly start to reintroduce them? | |
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Member
Posts: 9
| Hey everyone I'm new to this. But I do agree with months and months even the year of rehab and reteachin. I have a 12 yr old mare who is very fearful of a lot of things and she has a lot of vises but my aunt and I have been reworking her for about 4 months now and there is a big difference with her but we still have a lot of work to do with her but my aunt said this stuff didn't happen to her over nite and it won't get fixed over nite. 4 months ago u could not touch her right ear or even act like u where going to get close to that side and I have delt with that since I got her in march of last year but with the continued work and patience she now let's u touch and rub all over her right side and ears. I have been working with her everyday basicly treating her like she is a young filly all over again she rides great and has always been honest on the barrels and poles she is quite and fun to run but when we get done with retraining her to trust and when she realizes that not every one that owns her is going to mistreat her she is going to b much more of a great horse. I'm glad I bought her cause she is at her forever home and I think she has started to figure it out but I have learned a lot of patience so just remember don't give up and just love them and they will love u back I have had many different horses growing up and have loved them all and I have learned so much from them to. But thanks for letting me join. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 974
Location: USA | total performance - 2015-01-02 10:20 AM I would have her scoped for uclers and go from there. 6-8 weeks isn't alot of down time.
Could I just treat her for ulcers and not scope? Would it hurt anything? Omeprazole is just a PPI . . . | |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Yes...just treat her.and dont cut your treatment short.what are you feeding her?
Edited by jake16 2015-01-04 4:34 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 974
Location: USA | jake16 - 2015-01-04 4:32 AM
Yes...just treat her.and dont cut your treatment short.what are you feeding her?
3/4 lb renew gold twice a day, aloe Vera juice at each feeding, started her on alfalfa at feedings a few days ago. She's on pasture with a good quality Bermuda roundbale. | |
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