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 Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12704
   
| Turnburnsis - 2015-01-11 7:29 PM another question is if you feed alfafa how do you know you wont get the beetles that can kill a horse? if you don't feed the pellet version.
I've used the western alfalfa for over 15 years, on and off again. I've never seen anything, weed, bug, etc. That will be one of the 'things' I watch for now that I've changed to a PA alfalfa - bugs in hay. So far this hay has also been very very clean. But I know the possibility of seeing blister beetles will increase so will be keeping an eye out for them.
Keep in mind that thousands of horses eat alfalfa hay with no issues. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1150
 
Location: LaCygne, KS | Turnburnsis - 2015-01-11 7:29 PM another question is if you feed alfafa how do you know you wont get the beetles that can kill a horse? if you don't feed the pellet version.
Probably the first sign that one has a "beetle" problem will be a very sick horse, or worse. Beetle are swarming insects and will probably only be in a few bales out of a field. Unless every flake is inspected closely, they won't be detected. A needle in the hay stack, IMO. Not all areas of the country have a potential beetle problem,but we do, so I don't feed alfafa hay. |
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 Lived to tell about it and will never do it again
Posts: 5408
| Turnburnsis - 2015-01-11 7:29 PM another question is if you feed alfafa how do you know you wont get the beetles that can kill a horse? if you don't feed the pellet version.
We get our alfalfa from a guy that we are friends with and he feeds it to his horses also, I trust him, he is in the alfalfa business. When you go into a field to cut the alfalfa you can see the beetles as they will be in a swarm. You can eithr wait until they have left or not use it for horse hay. Just because you feed the pelleted version doesnt mean that it can't have beetles in it. The beetles that make horses sick aren't the live ones but rather the dead ones that get ran thru the mower conditioner when the hay is cut.
We have had several horse around here die from the feed (grain)that was purchased at a local Co-op, then you have the horses that died on a farm somewhere else that was in the news from a name brand feed. My point is that there isn't any quarantee's. You just have to go with what you trust and pray for the best. In our case like I said we trust our supplier, he has several very high priced horses that he is feeding the same hay as us to.
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Expert
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| cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-01-11 11:14 AM
Good post. I don't like what happens to my horses on grain. My main guy gets alfalfa pellets with a multivitamin and a few supplements he needs. Per some research I've been doing, I'm starting him on coconut flakes and REALLY want to try Renew Gold (just working on how to get it here...) My other horse is on Ultium and I swear it's made him more nuts than he already was. He's a hard keeper though so I'm hoping to switch him to renew gold soon as well. If it is impossible to get it up here in the end (which I hope isn't the case, I'm working w/ the company) I'll probably go with Nutrena's rice bran/flax feed, alfalfa pellets, and coconut oil.Â
The coconut feeding thread got lost or deleted one what coconut flakes are you going to use?
I'm thinking about trying cool stance and their coconut meal based feed. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1028
| I used to be a Safechoice diehard, but recently switched to a no processed feed diet for my horses. I mix my own feed now, a combination of alfalfa pellets, oats, and rice bran that I soak before feeding (mainly so the supplement will stick to it). They also get THE Muscle Mass special formula and quality mixed grass hay. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| Turnburnsis - 2015-01-11 7:29 PM another question is if you feed alfafa how do you know you wont get the beetles that can kill a horse? if you don't feed the pellet version.
Have a reputable hay source. Get to know the guy that grows it. Buy it from the source and build that relationship. Seriously, my hay guy and I have a great working relationship to where I bring him cookies and he moves bales to get to the "nice" bales on the interior of the stack for me.
Also - know the area in which you are buying hay. Many hay brokers will tell you where the hay comes from and help you if you ask questions. Just be prepared to pay more for them finding you what you want.
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 639
Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | geronabean - 2015-01-11 5:19 PM
JLBerry - 2015-01-11 4:08 PM
I feed Renew Gold, alfalfa pellets and alfalfa cubes. Also, give some coastal hay/pasture turn out. It works great and my horses have had ZERO digestive problems.
How much renew gold and how much alfalfa pellets are you feeding? Trying to get the ration worked out on my mare feeding the same thing. I lnow they are all different but wondering anyway.
For the Renew - they get 3/4 to 1lb a day just depending on the horse. And about 2-3 pounds alfalfa pellets just for volume and to add in their supplements. |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | astreakinchic - 2015-01-12 7:20 AM
cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-01-11 11:14 AM
Good post. I don't like what happens to my horses on grain. My main guy gets alfalfa pellets with a multivitamin and a few supplements he needs. Per some research I've been doing, I'm starting him on coconut flakes and REALLY want to try Renew Gold (just working on how to get it here...) My other horse is on Ultium and I swear it's made him more nuts than he already was. He's a hard keeper though so I'm hoping to switch him to renew gold soon as well. If it is impossible to get it up here in the end (which I hope isn't the case, I'm working w/ the company) I'll probably go with Nutrena's rice bran/flax feed, alfalfa pellets, and coconut oil.Â
The coconut feeding thread got lost or deleted one what coconut flakes are you going to use?
I'm thinking about trying cool stance and their coconut meal based feed.
 SG brought up coconut flakes from Tropical Traditions. Feeding the flakes is much more feasible in my barn so I'm trying those at the moment. I do believe that thread was resurrected so there should be some info there. |
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Veteran
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Location: Abbotsford B.C. Canada | I think you may find a horse needs some grain but not a lot, as horses who are working very hard doing speed "may" get a little run down on muscle glcycogen reserves/b;lood sugar depending on what they do.
The barrel horse is actually not working that hard in the actual run so only needs instant energy from blood sugar and muscle glycogen at that time. However, it depends on his personality and overall work load and centers around how muscle uses energy.
If his heart rate is over 155 bpm he canot burn fat for energy as it releases energy too slowly for the instant contraction of the msucle fibers involved in the explosive work being done. It does not matter of he looks fat, he simply cannot mobilize fat fast enough.
Only the glycogen stores can be broken down fat enough to give the fibers the gas they need for speed work..
So in ttraining you want to maximize aerobic capacity so the horse can use fat as much as possible but you also want to maximize muscle glycogen stores and actually develop the muscle fiber types used for speed work which do not rely on oxygen. He may need to be conditioned to have some lactic acid pain in his muscles so it is not a surprise during a run.
The trick is if he is standing there waiting to go in the arena and his heart is over 155 he is now burning glycogen even before the run. It is like he is running hard standing there. If he is a nervous horse to begin with, this may have been happening from the time you loaded or when you got to the arena. So he is using up the gas reserves before he even runs.
The real probem for horses is that unlike humans they cannot reload these muscle glycogen reserves very quickly. A human can play soccer today and carb load for tomorrow and play at the same level. A horse takes up to 72 hours to reload and they take longer to reload with fat as it has no sugar /starch so it is an indirect way of reloading. The fat may be used for energy but only for things like lower level work, the trailering etc and it can spare muscle glycogen at lower heart rates. Bujt it may not be enough.
Some experts say a speed horse simply gets run down a bit unless they have about 16-18% sugars and starch in their diet overall dry matter . Fat cannot do it all for speed horses. Very good alfalfa may actually supply this amount of sugar and starch, but now you have another issue which may not add to speed depending on the horse.
Some research shows that once a T B race horse gets over 15% protein in the diet dry matter, times drop a bit. It is just because the extra protein takes energy to burn off, the horse needs to drink more water on higher protein, and it may have a bit of a negative effect for heating up horses as they burn off excess protein/nitrogen in hot weather. THe stall may have more ammonia and that hurts lung health. Maybe half alflafa would be better.
The kidney also has to work over time and use water to dump the extra calcium so that may be an effecta as well.
So, I see barrel horses may get a bit run down over a meeting even if they look great at home and great at first glance, because they are losing the instant gas energy reserves . Training can increase glycogen reeserves by 10-15% so that too is critical.
Look closely at your horse and if he looks a bit rung out it may be he is run down on sugar and starch being a bit too low in the diet or he is over trained and cannot have time to reload.
The glycogen is also stored in a hydrated form in muscle and that means if he is a bit dehydrated he cannot reload very well. So hydration is critical for getting gas in the tank.
Overall, if he is fine at home, It may just mean you should give him a little snack of some grain at noon at the show and maybe he is ok at home on a hign fat diet. Naturally, time the snack so he does not run within 3 hours of feeding or he will be messed up on where his insulin and blood sugar are.
I am not an expert, just my opinion from my work on this stuff for barrel horses.
Getting them wound up too high on sugar and starch can also cause issues increasing HR so it is all about balance .
Lots to keep in balance and each horse is an individual . Horses with lots of guts will run on pure heart and may win short term, but eventually hurt them selves as the body just gives out. Some will give us 120%. My horse likes to negotiate this every ride as she is a lazy horse but some just love to go! We need to think about what works for each horse.
Cheers,
Coastal Rider
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Extreme Veteran
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| I'm not going completely grainless but trying a more natural diet. Just started experiementing with 2 horses alfalfa hay (grass mix would be my preference if I could get my hands on it at a reasonable price) 2 lbs whole oats right now and equipride. This summer I will probably cut down on the oats and put the equilix tubs out. It's hard to supplement in grain because I keep a few horses together and one usually finishes first and gets extra. I'm trying to feed more forage.
On the alfalfa note, I just read something that alfalfa can seem to make a horse hot because it is nutrient dense and because of a horse's forage needs they are getting more nutrition than needed to meet the fiber/forage needs. Sounded like a good reason.
Edited by oranges 2015-01-13 2:02 PM
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Fairweather - 2015-01-12 3:17 AM For those that feed a lot more grass hay what are you using as a vit/min source to make sure they're getting all they need, especially for their feet?
I've got 2 non-riding mares that are out on pasture and a fescue/dallas grass round bale. They get a 1/2 scoop beet pulp, 3-4 Alf cubes, cup rice bran, kelp, and remission. They have a salt block.
My riding horses are on 3.8 pounds of Total Equine or Strategy - 1 scoop per day. They were on 2 scoops but I replaced it with alfalfa cubes. They also get rice bran, kelp. I've got one horse that when you pull him off TE his feet go to heck even if you're feeding him flax.
My geldings are on a grass hay bale 24/7 right now and get renew gold. One is just a companion animal and the other is my barrel horse. For him I also add a flake or two of alfalfa, a scoop of Forco, scoop of his THE blend and vitamin E. They also have salt and mineral blocks out that they lick on. |
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 Dancing in my Mind
Posts: 3062
Location: Eastern OH but my heart is in WV | My horses are out on grass 24/7. 3 of the 4 get no grain, hardly ever in the summer (maybe a handful here and there). My daughter's horse gets just enough grain to mix in with his supplements (more for joints), once a day. In the winter, they all get some grain but really just enough to get them to come to their stalls when it is really cold. Just as in the summer, my daughter's horse continues to get just enough to mix in the supplements. As long as they are not getting wet with low tempatures, they are all out 24/7 with free access to hay. I also leave out supplement block year round. Seems to work well for my horses but 3/4 are not used a lot. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-01-11 10:14 AM Good post. I don't like what happens to my horses on grain. My main guy gets alfalfa pellets with a multivitamin and a few supplements he needs. Per some research I've been doing, I'm starting him on coconut flakes and REALLY want to try Renew Gold (just working on how to get it here...) My other horse is on Ultium and I swear it's made him more nuts than he already was. He's a hard keeper though so I'm hoping to switch him to renew gold soon as well. If it is impossible to get it up here in the end (which I hope isn't the case, I'm working w/ the company) I'll probably go with Nutrena's rice bran/flax feed, alfalfa pellets, and coconut oil.
I had not heard of this before so I looked up. I like the concept, but are you concerned about the high starch content? Just looking for an opinion. :) |
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  Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | BamaCanChaser - 2015-01-13 4:53 PM cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-01-11 10:14 AM Good post. I don't like what happens to my horses on grain. My main guy gets alfalfa pellets with a multivitamin and a few supplements he needs. Per some research I've been doing, I'm starting him on coconut flakes and REALLY want to try Renew Gold (just working on how to get it here...) My other horse is on Ultium and I swear it's made him more nuts than he already was. He's a hard keeper though so I'm hoping to switch him to renew gold soon as well. If it is impossible to get it up here in the end (which I hope isn't the case, I'm working w/ the company) I'll probably go with Nutrena's rice bran/flax feed, alfalfa pellets, and coconut oil. I had not heard of this before so I looked up. I like the concept, but are you concerned about the high starch content? Just looking for an opinion. : )
Flax and rice bran are high in fat -- fat levels out the blood sugar unlike starches. They don't get the spike in sugar levels and energy with fat like you do with starches. |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Just curious--- has anyone ever noticed an increase in energy or had a horse get hot on beet pulp?
I've had people say they don't / can't but it's touted as an easy to digest source of energy. I've had a few horses noticeably hot on beet pulp- even the non molasses kind. |
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 Maine-iac
Posts: 3334
Location: Got Lobsta? | JLBerry - 2015-01-11 4:08 PM I feed Renew Gold, alfalfa pellets and alfalfa cubes. Also, give some coastal hay/pasture turn out. It works great and my horses have had ZERO digestive problems.
When feeding Renew Gold, do you add the pellets without soaking? I'm assuming you soak the cubes? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 639
Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | Mainer-racer - 2015-01-14 7:28 AM
JLBerry - 2015-01-11 4:08 PM I feed Renew Gold, alfalfa pellets and alfalfa cubes. Also, give some coastal hay/pasture turn out. It works great and my horses have had ZERO digestive problems.
When feeding Renew Gold, do you add the pellets without soaking? I'm assuming you soak the cubes?
I do not soak they pellets. They are small and easy to chew. I DO SOAK the cubes though for about 10-15 mins before I feed them. |
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 Bulls Eye
Posts: 6443
Location: Oklahoma | My broodmares are on 24/7 bermuda round bales. They are fed timothy pellets and safe choice original. My 2 year old is also on 24/7 round bale, but she gets Nutrena Pro Force Fuel 2x a day. My stud and gelding are on the same feeding program as my 2 year old. |
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 Friendly horse swapper
Posts: 4122
Location: Buffalo, TX | coastal rider - 2015-01-13 1:40 PM I think you may find a horse needs some grain but not a lot, as horses who are working very hard doing speed "may" get a little run down on muscle glcycogen reserves/b;lood sugar depending on what they do.
The barrel horse is actually not working that hard in the actual run so only needs instant energy from blood sugar and muscle glycogen at that time. However, it depends on his personality and overall work load and centers around how muscle uses energy.
If his heart rate is over 155 bpm he canot burn fat for energy as it releases energy too slowly for the instant contraction of the msucle fibers involved in the explosive work being done. It does not matter of he looks fat, he simply cannot mobilize fat fast enough.
Only the glycogen stores can be broken down fat enough to give the fibers the gas they need for speed work..
So in ttraining you want to maximize aerobic capacity so the horse can use fat as much as possible but you also want to maximize muscle glycogen stores and actually develop the muscle fiber types used for speed work which do not rely on oxygen. He may need to be conditioned to have some lactic acid pain in his muscles so it is not a surprise during a run.
The trick is if he is standing there waiting to go in the arena and his heart is over 155 he is now burning glycogen even before the run. It is like he is running hard standing there. If he is a nervous horse to begin with, this may have been happening from the time you loaded or when you got to the arena. So he is using up the gas reserves before he even runs.
The real probem for horses is that unlike humans they cannot reload these muscle glycogen reserves very quickly. A human can play soccer today and carb load for tomorrow and play at the same level. A horse takes up to 72 hours to reload and they take longer to reload with fat as it has no sugar /starch so it is an indirect way of reloading. The fat may be used for energy but only for things like lower level work, the trailering etc and it can spare muscle glycogen at lower heart rates. Bujt it may not be enough.
Some experts say a speed horse simply gets run down a bit unless they have about 16-18% sugars and starch in their diet overall dry matter . Fat cannot do it all for speed horses. Very good alfalfa may actually supply this amount of sugar and starch, but now you have another issue which may not add to speed depending on the horse.
Some research shows that once a T B race horse gets over 15% protein in the diet dry matter, times drop a bit. It is just because the extra protein takes energy to burn off, the horse needs to drink more water on higher protein, and it may have a bit of a negative effect for heating up horses as they burn off excess protein/nitrogen in hot weather. THe stall may have more ammonia and that hurts lung health. Maybe half alflafa would be better.
The kidney also has to work over time and use water to dump the extra calcium so that may be an effecta as well.
So, I see barrel horses may get a bit run down over a meeting even if they look great at home and great at first glance, because they are losing the instant gas energy reserves . Training can increase glycogen reeserves by 10-15% so that too is critical.
Look closely at your horse and if he looks a bit rung out it may be he is run down on sugar and starch being a bit too low in the diet or he is over trained and cannot have time to reload.
The glycogen is also stored in a hydrated form in muscle and that means if he is a bit dehydrated he cannot reload very well. So hydration is critical for getting gas in the tank.
Overall, if he is fine at home, It may just mean you should give him a little snack of some grain at noon at the show and maybe he is ok at home on a hign fat diet. Naturally, time the snack so he does not run within 3 hours of feeding or he will be messed up on where his insulin and blood sugar are.
I am not an expert, just my opinion from my work on this stuff for barrel horses.
Getting them wound up too high on sugar and starch can also cause issues increasing HR so it is all about balance .
Lots to keep in balance and each horse is an individual . Horses with lots of guts will run on pure heart and may win short term, but eventually hurt them selves as the body just gives out. Some will give us 120%. My horse likes to negotiate this every ride as she is a lazy horse but some just love to go! We need to think about what works for each horse.
Cheers,
Coastal Rider
Very good bringing this up, but it reads a little confusing (not being critical...lol).....I get it that you are talking about losing glycogen stores during a barrel race...the reason this happens is that it's an anaerobic event....and dependent on the energy from a high glycemic source (CARBS - or sugar/starch as you say) in order to run powerful and strong from beginning to end....you can't get this type of energy from protein or fat....but you can actually increase the glycogen stores during proper foundation speed training as the muscles are depleted and replenished over and over, and that causes faster muscle buffering (hopefully enough to get you through a run).....so yes, you do need a certain amount of carbs to accomplish this, but not overloading the horse enough to cause founder etc.....mainly they need carbs 1/2 hour after a run to replenish the glycogen if you plan on running the next day, as it takes 48 hrs. to replenish....and you can load them before a run (the term "loading" is misleading...it sounds like you use a lot, but that's not true)...there are so many good paste formulas out there now that it's a good option to use instead of the older glycogen loading grain formulas, along with the correct training process to hit the balance of what's needed to not lose speed or power during a 17 second run.....a normal horse's glycogen is depleted in 10 seconds, and that's why a lot of horses quit going to the 3rd barrel and home....so the game is trying to increase that time frame without hurting the horse in the process....and it can be tricky...it's a balance of proper training and nutrition...
p.s...you can't compare to humans because muscle glycogen resynthesis is different than in horses.
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Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | Fairweather - 2015-01-13 7:05 PM
BamaCanChaser - 2015-01-13 4:53 PM cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-01-11 10:14 AM Good post. I don't like what happens to my horses on grain. My main guy gets alfalfa pellets with a multivitamin and a few supplements he needs. Per some research I've been doing, I'm starting him on coconut flakes and REALLY want to try Renew Gold (just working on how to get it here...) My other horse is on Ultium and I swear it's made him more nuts than he already was. He's a hard keeper though so I'm hoping to switch him to renew gold soon as well. If it is impossible to get it up here in the end (which I hope isn't the case, I'm working w/ the company) I'll probably go with Nutrena's rice bran/flax feed, alfalfa pellets, and coconut oil. I had not heard of this before so I looked up. I like the concept, but are you concerned about the high starch content? Just looking for an opinion. : )
I know that flax and rice bran are high in fat, but when you look this feed up on Nutrena's website it has a 22% starch content. That seems high to me? It's fat content is also 22%.
http://www.nutrenaworld.com/products/horses/empower-supplements/emp... |
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