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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
  
Location: MD | I tend to ride with my seat and thigh far more than most barrel racers. I also teach the use of seat and thigh in ways that many have never been taught. Until the last few years, I had never ridden super ratey horses on a consistent basis. Actually, up until then, I had ridden exactly 1 regularly. I ride every horse with my seat and leg in the dry work. This may be a hard concept for some, as I can often be seen loping around slightly out of the tack , using a more "sweeping" seat, or what some would call a two point position. Even then, my seat and thigh are having the greatest impact on my horse. When running a pattern however, I find that a "Driving" seat is a very beneficial tool, especially on those super ratey, snappy and rollback style turners.
During the 2013 NFR, I did a critique thread. In that thread, I commented several times on how well Taylor Jacobs used her seat and thigh to drive Bo past the backside of a few barrels. Her riding in those moments was a great example of how the Driving seat can be used in the turn. The seat and hip can be used to pick one up and send them forward leaving the turn, as well. Every time that we close our thigh against a horse and tuck our tush in a driving motion, we should immediately feel a forward response. I have been told by many that my horses would run faster if I didn't get behind them in the turns, but in actuality, I am hitting the gas pedal at that point. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
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| Good discussion. When we started with Jan using your seat is the first thing she worked on with my girls. They spent 2 months in the round pen with no bridle or stirrups learning to guide with your seat. It as amazing how their riding improved. We had spent almost 3 years with another "trainer" and there one not one conversation about using your seat.
Edited by rodeomom3 2015-01-27 6:53 AM
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  Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
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Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | WrapSnap - 2015-01-26 10:33 PM I tend to ride with my seat and thigh far more than most barrel racers. I also teach the use of seat and thigh in ways that many have never been taught. Until the last few years, I had never ridden super ratey horses on a consistent basis. Actually, up until then, I had ridden exactly 1 regularly. I ride every horse with my seat and leg in the dry work. This may be a hard concept for some, as I can often be seen loping around slightly out of the tack , using a more "sweeping" seat, or what some would call a two point position. Even then, my seat and thigh are having the greatest impact on my horse. When running a pattern however, I find that a "Driving" seat is a very beneficial tool, especially on those super ratey, snappy and rollback style turners. During the 2013 NFR, I did a critique thread. In that thread, I commented several times on how well Taylor Jacobs used her seat and thigh to drive Bo past the backside of a few barrels. Her riding in those moments was a great example of how the Driving seat can be used in the turn. The seat and hip can be used to pick one up and send them forward leaving the turn, as well. Every time that we close our thigh against a horse and tuck our tush in a driving motion, we should immediately feel a forward response. I have been told by many that my horses would run faster if I didn't get behind them in the turns, but in actuality, I am hitting the gas pedal at that point.
With a horse that has a lot of natural rate do you tend to sit as deep and use a ton of leg or do you sit a little lighter?
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
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Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | grinandbareit - 2015-01-26 6:35 PM Biblia is correct in theory... Let's start here and see if I can explain what we need in a barrel horse and why my program is what it is... I say MY program, because everyone does something a little different. I grew up in the cutting horse industry... Rode horses for an awesome reining horse trainer that won a lot... and I took dressage lessons when I was in my late 30's early 40's from a lady that has done really well in her discipline... All those disciplines have worked great in my program because I feel a barrel horse needs to have a piece of all these disciplines... They need to work on their own like a cutting horse, they need to be light and responsive like a reining horse, have a strong top line, allow you to control their body and keep contact with their mouth (without getting stiff) like a dressage horse. When you combine those qualities together you get an awesome horse, with lots of body control, great top-line, you have the ability to move them at speed when needed and yet they can work on their own. Then you add racehorse speed. Do all those things and you have the PERFECT barrel horse!
Love this!!  |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
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Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | grinandbareit - 2015-01-26 6:54 PM Fairweather - 2015-01-26 3:39 PM Thought I would start a new thread because I think this could be a good discussion.
I was taught by a dressage/eventing trainer to sit "into" a horse to push them forward for canter instead of coming forward or rolling shoulders. To get forward momentum you have to push or ride the hindend.
Then on the flip side when it comes to running, the main focus is staying forward, which I struggle accomplishing because of showing in other things. I have to say, the more forward I am the whole run the better my horse clocks. Granted I'm not between his ears but I'm sitting lighter and getting up instead of down or deeper, and still balanced. Definitely not pushing with the seat though, more with the legs.
Grinandbareit can you expound on this a little more and how it relates to barrels and pushing one for speed?
"This is a huge part of what we focus on at the clinics... Everyone that comes wants to lean forward with their shoulders to get their horse to go from a stop to a walk, trot, or canter. What I try to get them to focus on is using their seat and their energy to propel their horse forward. You do not have to hang off their ears to get them to go. As a matter of fact, I lean just a tad further back when getting my horse to move out. 80% leg and seat... 20% hands and shoulders. If not, it can keep a horse strung out and doesn't build the muscles that they need to turn and leave a barrel properly. When you build those muscles and teach a horse to use them correctly you will find that your horse gets less injuries as well. "
How do you find the happy medium between sitting deep in your saddle and still urging your horse forward for the run? The first thing you need to do is lots of "home"work. If you have never felt a well collected horse that is round and supple and has a lot of energy in his step then it is hard to put into print what to do. You almost need someone on the ground to "coach" you into it so you can recognize what it feels like when they are "correct". Before I go into the pen to make a run, I gather my horse up in my hands, I might back them up a few steps to get them thinking about using that booty and then, when I take off, I slightly elevate my seat and let them move out. I try to stay as much in the middle as I can. I don't really lean too forward with my shoulders, instead I lift through my hips and get just a hair forward of their motion, I call it the sweet spot. When you get in this spot, it smooths out your run and makes for a really pretty smooth pattern. It doesn't matter if you are on a 1d barn burner or a 5d horse that just doesn't have that kind of speed. If I do all those things, it means that I don't need to do much when we approach the turns. My training is done at home and when we get to the barrel race the horse already knows his job, so I just need to stay out of the way. I hope that answers your question. There are so many pieces to the puzzle when it comes to teach a horse to be a great barrel horse. So many times we skip little pieces and the puzzle never really fits together properly.
..... I try to stay as much in the middle as I can. I don't really lean too forward with my shoulders, instead I lift through my hips and get just a hair forward of their motion... <<<< This makes sense to me. |
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Expert
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| Nevertooold - 2015-01-26 7:36 PM
The biggest thing that sticks out for me, is barrel racers that get their horse real bendy in their neck but have never engaged the hindend or have taught a horse how to bend from the rib cage. Pretty easy to pick them out as you see them twirly birding their backend around the barrels. For what ever reason this drives me nuts. I'm also not a fan of people who sit on their horses and just bend the neck back and forth. JMOÂ
I'd like to also add those horses and the MOST sore and the owner is never able to tell it. If you lay your horse out going into the barrels he will be all strung out and more prone to injury, this is also when most horses trip or stumble.
Most people can keep their horses in order on one and two but people who can't tune one are evident when you see that horse get VERY laid out on number 3. If you watch at the big races in happens a lot with the kiddos. |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| casualdust07 - 2015-01-27 2:24 PM
I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end.
Then there is Ed Wright who drives with his seat but is hunched over and riding in the upper half of the horses neck |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:06 PM casualdust07 - 2015-01-27 2:24 PM I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end. Then there is Ed Wright who drives with his seat but is hunched over and riding in the upper half of the horses neck
He rides like that but doesn't compete so it means nothing to me..LOL His wife doesn't ride like that and she is the one competing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd11Sg0JVuQ
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
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Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bibliafarm - 2015-01-27 3:21 PM balanced and keep Your Core in center. If you lean forward with your upper torso ..and that is your style you should keep your "" core centered" and butt centered and back if that makes sense .
Makes sense to me.. |
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 I hate cooking and cleaning
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Location: Jersey Girl | Bibliafarm - 2015-01-27 4:21 PM balanced and keep Your Core in center. If you lean forward with your upper torso ..and that is your style you should keep your "" core centered" and butt centered and back if that makes sense .
Hhmmm so how does one learn to do this? I (and my horse) would def benefit from this. |
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 Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | Â sorry on cell and didn't realize it went thru yet.I wasn't finished ..bareback helps with balance..trot work . I'll go into detail when I get in laptop |
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas |
Okay... I hate watching myself ride, but here it is. I'll put my money where my mouth is, lol... I probably get floppy arms more than I should but I have always done that when I run - in my mind it makes me think I'm running faster, lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGVlxqizAfs
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Nevertooold - 2015-01-27 3:31 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:06 PM casualdust07 - 2015-01-27 2:24 PM I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end. Then there is Ed Wright who drives with his seat but is hunched over and riding in the upper half of the horses neck
Your link didn't work for me, so I googled Martha watched one from 2011 on her stud and I disagree bum in saddle body forward and hand upper part of neck.
Also to discredit Ed, he has trained multiple champions and taught many world champions how to ride. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. |
try this again... Stay Balanced and keep your core in center . if you lean forward with your style of riding and upper torso try to remain centered with your core and butt . keep your hips balanced and down in seat almost like a rope is tied to saddle around your waist. bareback lessons, no stirrups will help balance you to. you want to feel light with your torso straight up.. but bend at chest level if you are leaning forward.that will help keep your weight evenly over horses center . I see alot of people that truly get in the way of the horses working.. alot of mistakes and issues are from riders in the way or unbalanced... key factor is centered and balanced.. and allow horse freedom to move.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-01-27 4:13 PM
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:50 PM Nevertooold - 2015-01-27 3:31 PM cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:06 PM casualdust07 - 2015-01-27 2:24 PM I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end. Then there is Ed Wright who drives with his seat but is hunched over and riding in the upper half of the horses neck Your link didn't work for me, so I googled Martha watched one from 2011 on her stud and I disagree bum in saddle body forward and hand upper part of neck. Also to discredit Ed, he has trained multiple champions and taught many world champions how to ride.
You just said two different things.
That horse was hard to ride and would throw her around but that isn't how she usually rides...You can always find an exception.
It would be very hard for a normal person to have his seat in the saddle with his top half of their body half way up their horses neck.
I wasn't discrediteding Ed's abilities so quit reading into BS that I didn't say. I stated a fact..he doesn't compete. Martha does and she stays deep in her saddle with her body tilted a little bit. Not half way up her horse's neck. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Nevertooold - 2015-01-27 4:10 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:50 PM Nevertooold - 2015-01-27 3:31 PM cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:06 PM casualdust07 - 2015-01-27 2:24 PM I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end. Then there is Ed Wright who drives with his seat but is hunched over and riding in the upper half of the horses neck Your link didn't work for me, so I googled Martha watched one from 2011 on her stud and I disagree bum in saddle body forward and hand upper part of neck. Also to discredit Ed, he has trained multiple champions and taught many world champions how to ride.
That horse was hard to ride and would throw her around but that isn't how she usually rides...You can always find an exception.
It would be very hard for a normal person to have his seat in the saddle with his top half of their body half way up their horses neck.
I wasn't discrediteding  Ed's abilities so quit reading into BS that I didn't say. I stated a fact..he doesn't compete. Martha does and she stays deep in her saddle with her body tilted a little bit. Not half way up her horse's neck.
You specifically said
Ed doesn't ride therefore he doesn't count
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Blessed 
Location: Here | Nevertooold - 2015-01-26 6:29 PM Great discussion.
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:06 PM
casualdust07 - 2015-01-27 2:24 PM
I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end.
Then there is Ed Wright who drives with his seat but is hunched over and riding in the upper half of the horses neck
Glad I don't have to ride behind him! |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | Fairweather - 2015-01-27 11:37 AM
WrapSnap - 2015-01-26 10:33 PM I tend to ride with my seat and thigh far more than most barrel racers. I also teach the use of seat and thigh in ways that many have never been taught. Until the last few years, I had never ridden super ratey horses on a consistent basis. Actually, up until then, I had ridden exactly 1 regularly. I ride every horse with my seat and leg in the dry work. This may be a hard concept for some, as I can often be seen loping around slightly out of the tack , using a more "sweeping" seat, or what some would call a two point position. Even then, my seat and thigh are having the greatest impact on my horse. When running a pattern however, I find that a "Driving" seat is a very beneficial tool, especially on those super ratey, snappy and rollback style turners. During the 2013 NFR, I did a critique thread. In that thread, I commented several times on how well Taylor Jacobs used her seat and thigh to drive Bo past the backside of a few barrels. Her riding in those moments was a great example of how the Driving seat can be used in the turn. The seat and hip can be used to pick one up and send them forward leaving the turn, as well. Every time that we close our thigh against a horse and tuck our tush in a driving motion, we should immediately feel a forward response. I have been told by many that my horses would run faster if I didn't get behind them in the turns, but in actuality, I am hitting the gas pedal at that point.
With a horse that has a lot of natural rate do you tend to sit as deep and use a ton of leg or do you sit a little lighter? Â
For one that has a ton of rate at the turn, I sit even more deeply and use my seat to drive one forward and around the barrel. For one that is more the type that you have to pedal at them in order to get any run at all, I tend to sit a bit lighter, while using my lower back to get putting that same sort of driving motion into them and encouraging them forward with my entire leg, starting at the thigh. |
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