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Location: Texas | Ok something else a tight browband will keep one from over flexing and keep the I ring on her | |
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | I appreciate everyone's opinions, and what you're telling me to do I've said I've been doing, (or I will try) my question is I'm looking for a bit that is the best for a horse who breaks over to much in the pole.
I do my slow work and will continue to do what I need to do necessary to perfect everything as we're always going one step forward, two steps backwards! I work with a great wpra trainer on a weekly basis so I'm doing everything I can do to improve myself and my horses, I guess I'm just really trying to learn more about the bits and what can and can't help at this point with this issue.
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas | RnRJack - 2015-02-27 7:02 AM
I appreciate everyone's opinions, and what you're telling me to do I've said I've been doing, (or I will try) my question is I'm looking for a bit that is the best for a horse who breaks over to much in the pole.
I do my slow work and will continue to do what I need to do necessary to perfect everything as we're always going one step forward, two steps backwards! I work with a great wpra trainer on a weekly basis so I'm doing everything I can do to improve myself and my horses, I guess I'm just really trying to learn more about the bits and what can and can't help at this point with this issue.
Let me give you my advice without padding it up... That way other people who read this thread can learn from it as well...
Unfortunately there is not a bit that will help with this... Some horses get away from the bit by throwing their head in the air and others tuck their face... Bad hands and lack of feel cause both issues, once they develop that habit you need to have the experience to know how to fix it. My advice to you is to put a little Freeman Gag on that mare and get some help learning how to fix it. That is the bit I would use on her.
I don't want to make you feel defensive or bash your trainer, but if the two of you don't get this fixed it is going to turn into a big problem, a problem that should not have developed if you were receiving quality help and doing what your trainer said, unless your trainer doesn't know how to fix it. This mare will start running through your hands, if she isn't already, and you may even have trouble stopping her when you really need to. Horses that do this are hard to fix and you have to really know what your are doing. Your horse is only four and has a lifetime of barrel racing ahead of her. Don't try to do some quick fix, do it right and you will not regret the extra time you put into making it right. Trust me on this... I've been doing this a LONG time and I have seen lots of different scenarios... You have the opportunity here to start over and get it right, you should take advantage of it.
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Expert
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | I appreciate your advice, and totally concur and comprehend what you're saying.
May I start by saying this was something she did when I bought her and I've never had to deal with fixing it so I appreciate any help. | |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | So, I have one like yours, he WILL not run up into the bit-shakes his head, gaps his mouth etc. I've put a draw gag on him to get him used to the pressure and the release, I've use the simplicity that I first recommended, no difference, this horse has the most beautiful headset, breaks at the poll, flexes nicely, rounds his back etc. Teeth have been done, I'm only assuming he has some sort of metal sensitivity (i've tried stainless steel and sweet iron in his mouth) finally gave up and went with a side pull, then a beetle, little s and now run him in a carls hack from l and w WITH a tiedown http://lwbits.com/Hackamores.html he has an awesome headset (yes I know I'm repeating) so every now and then I try to run him without the tie down and as soon as he gets in a little bit of a tight situation he will flick his head and remind me he NEEDS the tie down-even though in all of my video, he never ever gets close to touching it. Why not continue with the jim warner?? I've learned that some will NEVER get better AND you will spend A LOT of time and money trying to get to the right place. I would also suggest visiting with ronnie clampitt about his hacks-he's very knowledgeable and even though I don't have any of my horses riding in the hack he made me, I probably will never get rid of it, sure gives a different feel and that might be my go to bit if the Carls hack quits working for my big rig :) | |
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| I would go back to putting a simple O-ring in her mouth. Leave it a little looser than normal, and when she breaks over to avoid the bit start lifting on the reins but do it in pulses. getting the bit to bounce in her mouth but not pulling on her. I don't know if this is making any sense, it is much easier to show then write out. when she is where she needs to be stop moving your hands and open up, letting her work. she starts to duck her face, start bouncing your hands again until she is back to where she needs to be. You'll be making the wrong thing annoying and the right thing easy... You also won't get in a tug a war contest with her with will just make the issue worse. You can do the same thing with a horse that never wants to walk and always has that jig.... it wont' make them high headed because you're not pulling and tugging on them but rather making it very annoying to not just walk. | |
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Expert
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| I've had 2 horses tht did this when they were first running , and both were on the track........I think it came from being track worked in draw reins. Both horses came around with a tender touch........when the mare would start to overtuck, I would actually bump her mouth a little bringing my hands up.....when her head came up a little, I would leave her alone. To this day, I cannot ride her in a 2 piece or she goes back to it, but a 3 piece bit is what brought them out of it. As far as running through the bit, that's what a chinstrap is for. Tightening the chinstrap and going from a leather to a chain worked well .......I dropped the tender touch and went with the simplicity after a while. One horse uses a tight chinstrap, the other no chinstrap. | |
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | LMS - 2015-02-27 9:33 AM
So, I have one like yours, he WILL not run up into the bit-shakes his head, gaps his mouth etc. I've put a draw gag on him to get him used to the pressure and the release, I've use the simplicity that I first recommended, no difference, this horse has the most beautiful headset, breaks at the poll, flexes nicely, rounds his back etc. Teeth have been done, I'm only assuming he has some sort of metal sensitivity (i've tried stainless steel and sweet iron in his mouth) finally gave up and went with a side pull, then a beetle, little s and now run him in a carls hack from l and w WITH a tiedown http://lwbits.com/Hackamores.html  he has an awesome headset (yes I know I'm repeating) so every now and then I try to run him without the tie down and as soon as he gets in a little bit of a tight situation he will flick his head and remind me he NEEDS the tie down-even though in all of my video, he never ever gets close to touching it. Why not continue with the jim warner?? I've learned that some will NEVER get better AND you will spend A LOT of time and money trying to get to the right place. I would also suggest visiting with ronnie clampitt about his hacks-he's very knowledgeable and even though I don't have any of my horses riding in the hack he made me, I probably will never get rid of it, sure gives a different feel and that might be my go to bit if the Carls hack quits working for my big rig :)Â
I had a long talk with a reputable trainer last night (thank you, you know who you are) and they suggested letting her be square rather then round the barrels since that's the way she wants to run, that way when I put the hack on her she doesn't duck her head she's just more square and snappy. It's a harder style (for me) to ride but she still clocks and turns fast. I learned the ride the Kim Landry style horse first, then I went to a very old school round/pocket version of riding, now I run two mares that have completely different styles.
I will work on all the slow work like everyone suggested I just need help finding what can help the slightest bit with her head set.
This is not a problem that I taught her, she was broke as a 2 year old and turned out when I got her she was just being legged up again and she always tucked and gave tremendously at the poll which I liked but now the slightest tough and she gives. She doesn't always do it and I try not to touch her much in her turns but she's still young and needs my guidance.
Thank you for all of your thoughts and opinions | |
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | mouse - 2015-02-27 10:27 AM
I've had 2 horses tht did this when they were first running , and both were on the track........I think it came from being track worked in draw reins.  Both horses came around with a tender touch........when the mare would start to overtuck, I would actually bump her mouth a little bringing my hands up.....when her head came up a little, I would leave her alone. To this day, I cannot ride her in a 2 piece or she goes back to it, but a 3 piece bit is what brought them out of it. As far as running through the bit, that's what a chinstrap is for. Tightening the chinstrap and going from a leather to a chain worked well .......I dropped the tender touch and went with the simplicity after a while. One horse uses a tight chinstrap, the other no chinstrap. Â
I have a simplicity bit, she doesn't need much curb she is light when it comes to stopping (I teach all mine the one rein stop)
I will try that out, she is track bred but I don't know what they used to break her in | |
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Expert
Posts: 1815
| You can also experiement with hand position on your reins........my gelding will definitely wad up in his turns if I have much inside rein.......goes against the grain, but if I use short reins and keep one hand in the middle, he flows through his turns and does well........the more distance between your reins, the more bend you will get. That's why I like the simplicity, you can get bend by just twisting your wrist a little instead of using a lot of inside rein, and still keep forward momentem
Edited by mouse 2015-02-27 10:34 AM
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Expert
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | I also wonder if her shorter neck plays a roll, she has a short almost U neck, she's filled out now but I'm sure confirmation plays a roll, my gelding and other mare both have long necks and they stick their heads out and wrap the barrels | |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: somewhere in the middle | I would be trying to add a tie down or probably a bonnet for her to lean or push on. I don't use tie-down as a matter of course but you gotta do what you gotta do. You can't rate one down with a bit without getting g in their way. It looks like a bonnet or a combination tie down would be just the thing for her. | |
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Expert
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | scarletohara - 2015-02-27 10:48 AM
I would be trying to add a tie down or probably a bonnet for her to lean or push on. I don't use tie-down as a matter of course but you gotta do what you gotta do. You can't rate one down with a bit without getting g in their way. It looks like a bonnet or a combination tie down would be just the thing for her.
I'm not a fan of bonnets, I feel like that would make it worse, if her head is already coming down with the slightest pressure why would I want to put that on her? I understand the concept of a bonnet and making them drive from the rear end but that's not the issue, I'd be afraid to use anything that would make it worse......does that make sense?
I do like to use German martingales just to exercise them in once or twice a week but I stay away from anything that will further cause her to drop her head | |
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | Here's a photo her her, I use split reins any time I ride, this was an exhibition
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| RnRJack - 2015-02-27 10:56 AM
scarletohara - 2015-02-27 10:48 AM
I would be trying to add a tie down or probably a bonnet for her to lean or push on. I don't use tie-down as a matter of course but you gotta do what you gotta do. You can't rate one down with a bit without getting g in their way. It looks like a bonnet or a combination tie down would be just the thing for her.
I'm not a fan of bonnets, I feel like that would make it worse, if her head is already coming down with the slightest pressure why would I want to put that on her? I understand the concept of a bonnet and making them drive from the rear end but that's not the issue, I'd be afraid to use anything that would make it worse......does that make sense?
I do like to use German martingales just to exercise them in once or twice a week but I stay away from anything that will further cause her to drop her head
The mare in my avatar would lower her head really bad for a long time. So low that she would drag her nose through the dirt. Not the same reaction you are getting but kind of the same behavior in a round about way. She was either trying to evade pressure or looking for stability. I tried a tie down and that made it worse so I went to a browband tie down and had my husband modify me a Goosetree Delight with a chain mouth, he made me one with shorter shanks. It helps tremendously. She was able to stabilize herself on the browband tie down but the bit gave me just enough rate and flex without being way too much. Just a thought and maybe worth a try. After all, it never hurts to try.
I know you said she is only 4 but have you had her teeth looked at? I was having terrible issues with my gelding as a 4 year old and he had some pretty bad dental issues.
Also, I would take the German Martingale off for a while even in dry work and see what that does.
You might want to try a chain mouth piece or waterford with a light shank or even snaffle rings. Back to dental and mouth issues she may have a shallow pallet. A mullen would be good if she does have shallow pallet but you might lose flex. The waterford breaks like a chain but still applies mild pressure to the pallet, points of pressure to the tongue lips and bars and the chain does not apply pressure to the pallet but applies more pressure to the tongue, lips and bars.
Just some things to think about. First and foremost if you haven't been down that avenue yet I would have her teeth looked at. Then I would start playing with bits.
Edited by cyount2009 2015-02-27 11:37 AM
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Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | RnRJack - 2015-02-27 10:56 AM scarletohara - 2015-02-27 10:48 AM I would be trying to add a tie down or probably a bonnet for her to lean or push on. I don't use tie-down as a matter of course but you gotta do what you gotta do. You can't rate one down with a bit without getting g in their way. It looks like a bonnet or a combination tie down would be just the thing for her. I'm not a fan of bonnets, I feel like that would make it worse, if her head is already coming down with the slightest pressure why would I want to put that on her? I understand the concept of a bonnet and making them drive from the rear end but that's not the issue, I'd be afraid to use anything that would make it worse......does that make sense? I do like to use German martingales just to exercise them in once or twice a week but I stay away from anything that will further cause her to drop her head
Quite limiting yourself! Just because you don't like something or you're not a fan, doesn't mean the horse isn't! I agreed with the simplicity recommendation on one of the first responses here, I still think that is one of the best options for this mare.
All horses are different! (even though she came to you that way doesn't mean that you would have had a different result had you had her from the first ride) I've trained and rode a half dozen horses from their first trip to their finished stage and EVERY one of them has their preference for head gear and I'm not talking closely related headgear I'm talking all across the board options! These are lifelong horses for us, we do what makes them the best ride possible because they live with us their entire lives and we use them to our greatest means too. | |
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| as far as what you said about the hack and the style.. I have a horse that is very flexy and I love an inside rein type turner, but she did the same as your mare and is just slower like that even when the turns feel so round and pretty.. It is kinda scary/ different at first in a hack as it stiffer and snappier and less ability to move in or out at last minute to avoid hitting but this horse is 1d big show in a hack and cant even place in the 2d in a bit.. Just try some different hacks and make a few runs,yall will both get more comfortable with it when she finds her groove in a hack and you feel it out to adjust your timing for it.. On my horse I just two hand rate her down lightly, sit, then drop my outside when my leg is bedside the barrel and she snaps back, and like the others said, try getting her rating in the right spot then not touching until your guiding her to leave | |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | I was going to recommend a bonnet as well, and a Clampitt hack. A bonnet does not necessarily keep the head down, and her head is not down in the turning pictures, she's just hiding her face. A bonnet will keep her together from front to back and will give her something to balance on, making her more collected and less able to hide her face. I have one that is a lot like this and that's the combination I used on him. Eventually, I could take the bonnet off, but I ran for awhile with it. I like a Clampitt hack for one like this. It takes the "trap" off their head and will really free one up in the turn. The only negative about it is that sometimes they tend to get a little front endy in it, and then I put the bonnet on to get that butt up under them and make them round the back. Good luck. It can be frustrating to ride one like this. Grinandbareit is right, but I typically just get out of their mouths completely (as in a hack) if I have one like this, and with a Clampitt or the other headgear I use, you CAN flex them some....but mostly, I do teach them the square turn and just let them turn it themselves.
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Expert
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | dianeguinn - 2015-02-27 12:01 PM
I was going to recommend a bonnet as well, and a Clampitt hack. A bonnet does not necessarily keep the head down, and her head is not down in the turning pictures, she's just hiding her face. A bonnet will keep her together from front to back and will give her something to balance on, making her more collected and less able to hide her face. I have one that is a lot like this and that's the combination I used on him. Eventually, I could take the bonnet off, but I ran for awhile with it. I like a Clampitt hack for one like this. It takes the "trap" off their head and will really free one up in the turn. The only negative about it is that sometimes they tend to get a little front endy in it, and then I put the bonnet on to get that butt up under them and make them round the back. Good luck. It can be frustrating to ride one like this. Grinandbareit is right, but I typically just get out of their mouths completely (as in a hack) if I have one like this, and with a Clampitt or the other headgear I use, you CAN flex them some....but mostly, I do teach them the square turn and just let them turn it themselves.
Can someone send me a picture of the type of bonnet I can try? When I think bonnet I just think of seeing these peoples horses tied down to theor chest but you're right I need to try what I can and see what works. And a picture of the bit Diane is talking about?
Diane I wrote you a private message because you know a lot about the packin sixes horses and if this is typical behavior. Along with the other things I asked you, thanks for your advice and sorry of I've been on the defense it's just because I try so hard to do things the right way.
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Posts: 1898
| http://www.barrelracingsuperstore.com/search.php?search_query=bonne...
http://www.barrelracingsuperstore.com/7761-browband-tie-down/
Edited by cyount2009 2015-02-27 12:19 PM
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