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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
  
| cyount2009 - 2015-02-27 3:34 PM
stayceem - 2015-02-27 2:08 PM
SaraJean - 2015-02-27 1:28 PM
Bottom line, slaughter is needed. There is no way to prevent people from being irrisponsible and mistreating, neglecting & dumping horses, dogs, cats.....For many horses slaughter is a better alternative than the life they live. The absolute last thing I'd want to see is more regulations as far as who can raise, train & own horses. That's just asking for trouble. I also do not believe back yard breeders are the problem, by the standards of many here I am a backyard breeder. I raise maybe 1 or two foals a year at the most. I raise what I want to ride & have not sold a single foal and do not plan to any time soon. I also have zero interest in picking up a resuce horse and putting my time and money into rehabbing them mentally and physically and MAYBE having a usable horse in the end. The "big" breeders trying to create their next world champion are the ones mass producting horses, not the little guy that raises a couple that they truly enjoy. You will not stop this from happening. The end answer is slaughter plants are needed so that there is a place to go with the unwanted animals. No, it's not a pretty answer, but it is reality.
I also wouldnt consider you a backyard breeder and as my post said, I think thats a minimal issue in the grand scheme of things. However, I also think if horses market value increased there would be more options for resale. If the market wasnt flooded, many of these "slaughter bound" horses would have options.
And I also agree, we cannot make people be responsible but I also agree that the breeding for a champion is a huge problem.... flame away... This may not change the sick people in this world who neglect/starve horses but adding some kind of regulation could help with the flooding and reduced options as I said above. I also believe the number of truly starved/neglect cases are something related to mental illness... theres something we cant do about it and I think thats also minimal in the grand scheme of things.
I know I am wasting my breath as Ive seen these conversations circulate on BHW for years and years. But I do think there are options... I never suggested the government add regulations but I think it would be responsible for breed organizations to do so. Clearly people need limits since they cant seem to limit themselves. Another poster said breed organizations wouldnt do this, maybe they wouldnt... has it ever been pursued? No. Never say never.
Explain to me how the breed association could limit the over breeding problem? Since horses are not registered until they hit the ground how could this stop someone from breeding mares?
Ok, so theoretically speaking, you could say that they can only have x amount of mares listed on stud reports. All resulting offspring must meet a "breed standard" to be registered. Great. But what keeps a stallion owner from breeding all of their mares, filing late reports and only registering the colts that are "of breed standard". They aren't out a stud fee because they own the stud and the mares. The only thing they are out is time and care on the mare. Now you have a group of unregistered colts with little to no value because A. the owner opted not to file on them and B. with out papers, a colt in this day and age are grade babies worth rock bottom price. Sure you might find the occasional person who would pick one up because they know what the parents are but what about the others? The breeder is not going to to take the time to find "responsible" owners for them when he is only looking at getting a few 100 dollars a colt, if that. Come weaning time he is going to take all those "undesirable" babies straight to the sale. All this is going to do is drive up the price on the registered colts and bottom price down on unregistered stock.
And honestly, I don't think the quarter horse association can really push "breed standard" any more. Especially not with the diverse use of horses in this day and age. A top barrel horse probably wont place in the halter pen and a top halter horse wont do well in the arena.
My idea... again this is an idea and I never claimed to have all the answers. However, my idea is that if a breed registy added a restriction such as x amount of foals could be bred to a particular stallion or registering your horse as a "standing stud" or they have to pass some sort of quality standard... Apply for a breeding through the registry... whatever the regulation may be... It could decrease the idea of breeding to breed. I think it would be a deterrant if said breeder covers 10 mares and isnt following regulation, therefore cannot register any of the 10. Brings 10 grade horses to sale which go for rock bottom prices... clearly the incentive behind their so called breeding operation deteriotes. I understand that it doesnt cost them a stud fee, some dont even have any vet care done through the pregnancy... but as I said if these horses arent going to be registerable and they cannot sell them for more than $100 a piece... they likely wont continue with it. It would cost them more than that to feed them until weaning.
I dont know if this makes sense. Its hard for me to put what I am thinking into writing... but my honest opinion is too many people try and make money as a breeder... and if they actually have standards and regulations and it isnt a free-for-all, they're gonna think twice about their get rich quick scheme.
What blows my mind about this is... because people cannot be responsible we are okay with tons of healthy horses going to slaughter because we refuse to be accountable? I dont have all the answers, I am not a breeder so I am sure many of you know more about the registration process than I do. We can sit back and settle for this type of activity in the horse industry or we can try and improve it. | |
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  Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
  
Location: ND | stayceem - 2015-02-27 2:59 PM cyount2009 - 2015-02-27 3:34 PM stayceem - 2015-02-27 2:08 PM SaraJean - 2015-02-27 1:28 PM Bottom line, slaughter is needed. There is no way to prevent people from being irrisponsible and mistreating, neglecting & dumping horses, dogs, cats.....For many horses slaughter is a better alternative than the life they live. The absolute last thing I'd want to see is more regulations as far as who can raise, train & own horses. That's just asking for trouble. I also do not believe back yard breeders are the problem, by the standards of many here I am a backyard breeder. I raise maybe 1 or two foals a year at the most. I raise what I want to ride & have not sold a single foal and do not plan to any time soon. I also have zero interest in picking up a resuce horse and putting my time and money into rehabbing them mentally and physically and MAYBE having a usable horse in the end. The "big" breeders trying to create their next world champion are the ones mass producting horses, not the little guy that raises a couple that they truly enjoy. You will not stop this from happening. The end answer is slaughter plants are needed so that there is a place to go with the unwanted animals. No, it's not a pretty answer, but it is reality. I also wouldnt consider you a backyard breeder and as my post said, I think thats a minimal issue in the grand scheme of things. However, I also think if horses market value increased there would be more options for resale. If the market wasnt flooded, many of these "slaughter bound" horses would have options. And I also agree, we cannot make people be responsible but I also agree that the breeding for a champion is a huge problem.... flame away... This may not change the sick people in this world who neglect/starve horses but adding some kind of regulation could help with the flooding and reduced options as I said above. I also believe the number of truly starved/neglect cases are something related to mental illness... theres something we cant do about it and I think thats also minimal in the grand scheme of things. I know I am wasting my breath as Ive seen these conversations circulate on BHW for years and years. But I do think there are options... I never suggested the government add regulations but I think it would be responsible for breed organizations to do so. Clearly people need limits since they cant seem to limit themselves. Another poster said breed organizations wouldnt do this, maybe they wouldnt... has it ever been pursued? No. Never say never. Explain to me how the breed association could limit the over breeding problem? Since horses are not registered until they hit the ground how could this stop someone from breeding mares? Ok, so theoretically speaking, you could say that they can only have x amount of mares listed on stud reports. All resulting offspring must meet a "breed standard" to be registered. Great. But what keeps a stallion owner from breeding all of their mares, filing late reports and only registering the colts that are "of breed standard". They aren't out a stud fee because they own the stud and the mares. The only thing they are out is time and care on the mare. Now you have a group of unregistered colts with little to no value because A. the owner opted not to file on them and B. with out papers, a colt in this day and age are grade babies worth rock bottom price. Sure you might find the occasional person who would pick one up because they know what the parents are but what about the others? The breeder is not going to to take the time to find "responsible" owners for them when he is only looking at getting a few 100 dollars a colt, if that. Come weaning time he is going to take all those "undesirable" babies straight to the sale. All this is going to do is drive up the price on the registered colts and bottom price down on unregistered stock. And honestly, I don't think the quarter horse association can really push "breed standard" any more. Especially not with the diverse use of horses in this day and age. A top barrel horse probably wont place in the halter pen and a top halter horse wont do well in the arena. My idea... again this is an idea and I never claimed to have all the answers. However, my idea is that if a breed registy added a restriction such as x amount of foals could be bred to a particular stallion or registering your horse as a "standing stud" or they have to pass some sort of quality standard... Apply for a breeding through the registry... whatever the regulation may be... It could decrease the idea of breeding to breed. I think it would be a deterrant if said breeder covers 10 mares and isnt following regulation, therefore cannot register any of the 10. Brings 10 grade horses to sale which go for rock bottom prices... clearly the incentive behind their so called breeding operation deteriotes. I understand that it doesnt cost them a stud fee, some dont even have any vet care done through the pregnancy... but as I said if these horses arent going to be registerable and they cannot sell them for more than $100 a piece... they likely wont continue with it. It would cost them more than that to feed them until weaning. I dont know if this makes sense. Its hard for me to put what I am thinking into writing... but my honest opinion is too many people try and make money as a breeder... and if they actually have standards and regulations and it isnt a free-for-all, they're gonna think twice about their get rich quick scheme. What blows my mind about this is... because people cannot be responsible we are okay with tons of healthy horses going to slaughter because we refuse to be accountable? I dont have all the answers, I am not a breeder so I am sure many of you know more about the registration process than I do. We can sit back and settle for this type of activity in the horse industry or we can try and improve it.
All I see that doing is causing more grade horses that would end up getting shipped to Mexico. As is, you can find registered foals for $50-$150. Every fall there is a sale here with 600+ weanlings, there are so many babies that they can't even get bids on all of them. It doesn't change a thing. Year after year the same "breeders" are there with their foals. You can't force people into making responsible intelligent decisions.
I cannot control other peoples choices. If someone wants to breed trashy grade colts for "fun" they're going to do it regardless of if they loose money every year. And if someone else wants to breed 50+ mares a year in hopes of producing their next world champion again that is their decision. For me I choose to raise what I want to ride & be responsible for those horses.
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | whatadoll - 2015-02-27 12:26 PM
So here is the future as I see it with more rules and regulations on the breeding industry.
1) I apply to breed my mare to my chosen stallion.
2) Eventually the regulations will become more strict, in addition to garnering approval of a potential mating, said breeder will be forced to undergo inspections of facility and care of the breeding stock.
3) This will lead to approved stock being required to stand at an approved facility operated by certified people who have been given the responsibility of caring "correctly" for the livestock.
4) Since the breeding population will be significantly decreased, it will be vital that all approved makings result in a foal that is properly trained and shown by competent individuals- there won't be room for novice or amature handlers anymore.
5) This will result in more certification and licensure this time to be a trainer and possibly even a rider, because eventually it will become a safety and liability factor for non professional, proven people to be riding and handling the horses.
I realize this sounds and is far-fetched, but my point is, where does the regulation stop? Who is to say that if I am not competent to decide whether or not to breed an animal that I have purchased and cared for, that ultimately my right to decide what to do with them all together won't be taken away?
...well don't stop there... Let us go on to....
#6: You finally get your approved mare bred to an approved stallion and still get junk that winds up in a slaughterhouse.
Edited by komet. 2015-02-27 8:41 PM
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 Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| komet. - 2015-02-27 4:40 PM
whatadoll - 2015-02-27 12:26 PM
So here is the future as I see it with more rules and regulations on the breeding industry.
1) I apply to breed my mare to my chosen stallion.
2) Eventually the regulations will become more strict, in addition to garnering approval of a potential mating, said breeder will be forced to undergo inspections of facility and care of the breeding stock.
3) This will lead to approved stock being required to stand at an approved facility operated by certified people who have been given the responsibility of caring "correctly" for the livestock.
4) Since the breeding population will be significantly decreased, it will be vital that all approved makings result in a foal that is properly trained and shown by competent individuals- there won't be room for novice or amature handlers anymore.
5) This will result in more certification and licensure this time to be a trainer and possibly even a rider, because eventually it will become a safety and liability factor for non professional, proven people to be riding and handling the horses.
I realize this sounds and is far-fetched, but my point is, where does the regulation stop? Who is to say that if I am not competent to decide whether or not to breed an animal that I have purchased and cared for, that ultimately my right to decide what to do with them all together won't be taken away?
...well don't stop there... Let us go on to....
#6: You finally get you approved mare bred to an approved stallion and still get junk that winds up in a slaughterhouse.
Bingo! Because all the careful planning in the world can't change that breeding is a gamble. By carefully thinking out matings of quality horses, you give yourself better odds of getting a good one, but it's not 100% | |
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 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | I hate when people want to jump on the "backyard breeders" bandwagon and blame it on them. Large breeders with top bloodlines are just as much at fault for the over abundance of horses.
A back yard breeder might cover 20 horses a year. A large breeder will cover that in a couple of days with all frozen semen, embryos, etc and the sheer number of stallions they have standing. Just because a horse is decent doesn't mean we need 200 of them every year.
The UK and other places have the same problem with unwanted and loose horses.
The responsible thing to the is to breed less, regardless of if they're selling like hotcakes. If that means cutting back on your bottom line income then maybe you need to find a way to supplement your income. That would be the responsible thing to do. | |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Just curious.....there's always been fluctuations in the number of horses through the years. We've had this same problem in decades past. Has anyone ever done a study on those fluctuations and compared it to what else was going on in the economy & society at the time and the numbers that were being registered? I'm just curious if there's maybe a trending that might offer some insight to a possible solution. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 618
| This is exactly why I don't breed!!! I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this but don't care. Embryo transfer, AI and now cloning are big factor in over breeding. I say do away with embryo transfer and limit the # of foals a stud can sire in one year. I think you can flush up to 4 Embryo a year??? It would not only decrease the # of foals produced but also drive the market back up. It's simple supply and demand. If you have a stallion that produces winning foals and you breed him for 15 years to only 100 mares that's only 1500 foals making the availability of them limited ie more valuable. Same idea with a mare. She can biologically only foal say 15-20 times in her lifetime??? JMO.
I work at a SMALL qh breeding facility (racehorses). They have between 3-8 foals a year race some, sell some. Thankfully, the owners do care about what happens to their babies and broodmares. It's a rarity in this business. There needs to be some regulation from the various associations, not government. Having said all this there is a place for horse slaughter and if we brought it back to the US, it could definitely be regulated to be far more humane than the trip to Mexico
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 Expert
Posts: 2128
| iloveequine40 - 2015-02-27 8:21 PM This is exactly why I don't breed!!! I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this but don't care. Embryo transfer, AI and now cloning are big factor in over breeding. I say do away with embryo transfer and limit the # of foals a stud can sire in one year. I think you can flush up to 4 Embryo a year??? It would not only decrease the # of foals produced but also drive the market back up. It's simple supply and demand. If you have a stallion that produces winning foals and you breed him for 15 years to only 100 mares that's only 1500 foals making the availability of them limited ie more valuable. Same idea with a mare. She can biologically only foal say 15-20 times in her lifetime??? JMO. I work at a SMALL qh breeding facility (racehorses). They have between 3-8 foals a year race some, sell some. Thankfully, the owners do care about what happens to their babies and broodmares. It's a rarity in this business. There needs to be some regulation from the various associations, not government. Having said all this there is a place for horse slaughter and if we brought it back to the US, it could definitely be regulated to be far more humane than the trip to Mexico
Good points! | |
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| When I think "backyard breeder" I think of those who are breeding just for the sake of breeding. People who have a horse "that goes back to Dash for Cash" so they buy up any mare they can get and breed thinking they will make a buck or two selling foals. This to me is irresponsible and ignorant. I don't apply the same thought to someone who breeds their own stock for their own use. Cattle ranches do this. They breed what they have to create horses they will raise and use. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Just because you are a small operation doesn't mean you are a backyard breeder.
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I am a Freak
Posts: 3326
Location: Nowhere Special | There will always be a need for horse slaughter, I wish we could find a way to do it more humanley..
I'd also like to see people take some personal responsability rather then have to be regulated but the fact that there are high dollar stallions out there standing with bad 5 panel tests and people still lining up to breed to a horse with a known genetic disease says that we really can not regulate ourselves.. I wouldn't mind seeing all mares and stallions be required to have a 5 panel and if it is not NEGATIVE all the way, either sterlization and gelding or the papers get pulled.. But a reg will never do that because after all it is how they make their money.. | |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | scwebster - 2015-02-27 9:33 PM When I think "backyard breeder" I think of those who are breeding just for the sake of breeding. People who have a horse "that goes back to Dash for Cash" so they buy up any mare they can get and breed thinking they will make a buck or two selling foals. This to me is irresponsible and ignorant. I don't apply the same thought to someone who breeds their own stock for their own use. Cattle ranches do this. They breed what they have to create horses they will raise and use. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Just because you are a small operation doesn't mean you are a backyard breeder.
Even so, as a back yard breeder they are only producing one or two at best a year. Even if you did away with them, it's only a small dent in the problem.
If horses came back to the people that produced them in the first place and THEY had to slaughter them personally, there would be a lot less slaughter but I know that's not going to happen.
I've always said that if the rescues could be in charge of slaughter and manage it sensibly, it would be a win-win . They could choose which horses were truly salvageable and slaughter the ones that had soundness issues, etc that really did need to be put down. They could make sure it was done in a humane manner, and then they could reap the proceeds off of hide, hair, etc to keep the rescue going.
Then they could hold a competition every year with added sponsor money for the horses that came through the rescue and were adopted out. Have all events - pleasure, speed, halter, agility, dressage.
Maybe they could even start a rescue registry similar to a breed registry. People could earn points and work towards a nationals.
People have to have some incentive to stop breeding and start rescuing.
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 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| I think there should be regulations on human breeding. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| TXBO - 2015-02-28 10:23 AM
I think there should be regulations on human breeding.
Mandatory birth control with every welfare card.  | |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | Cowgirl Kat - 2015-02-27 9:27 AM No more back yard breeders! I think we need to better regulate all breeders. I think there should be a rule about proven horses being bred and their offspring. It just needs rules, right now there is none. I feel the same way about people breeding dogs and cats. IF they all had homes then it wouldn't matter.
Not a lot of people are agreeing win you but I do, for the most part. We just need some more common sense, and need to stop breeding unregistered horses, for one. I do see how the larger operations make more of an impact with unwanted horses though. It's just unfortunate that we have so many cheap horses that people buy (because they are cheap) and then they can't afford them and then we have the neglected/rescue horses.
I follow a bunch of tack/swap sites on FB and there's these people saying "my mare isn't registered and I want a buckskin baby but she's gray and what are the chances I'll get a buckskin?!" And it's like --DONT BREED YOUR UNREGISTERED MARE. Buy yourself exactly what you want. I get wanting a baby out if your mare you've had forever--but there are so many horses that need homes as it is. That's my initial take/feelings on the situation. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | I think the breed registries could cap a stallion at 50 mares per year, and charge more for filing the stallion report. There is no need what so ever for a stallion to breed 200 mares a year. I also think the rescues could put some effort into hosting gelding linics, and euth. clinics. The breed reg. should also step to the plate and really get some amazing programs to promote geldings. Money always talks. Earmark a percentage of registration fee's, and breeding report fee's to gelding incentives purses. | |
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boon
Posts: 3
| You are mis informed if you believe only grade horses are sent to slaughter. I've seen at least four registered horses sold to slaughter in the last week. Some of the best horses I've owned was grade. You can't ride papers! | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Embryo transfer is not a problem, this costs money to do, and still not enough of an impact to decrease the numbers enough.
The registries AQHA actually has a reduction in registered horses for awhile, this is why they have offered deals/incentives to register the horses.
The registries are a business for profit, so why would they want to impose restrictions that would affect their bottom line.
The breeders are also a business who also put money back into your barrel races, remember that.
Government is the only entity that has the power to regulate, if this happens breeders will not be making a profit, as it will take years to reduce the supply. Therefore less money towards equine events.
Also if breeders have to reduce their foal crops, there will be an abundance of broodmares flood the market, well bred, not broke, or have lameness issues, people can't buy them to breed due to restrictions, therefore they go for slaughter, the one thing you are trying to prevent.
Here are the problems with horses
They are expensive, the bleeding hearts purchase said horses, don't do anything with them, (talking not registered mutts) and they can't trim the feet, they don't actually know how to feed, house, etc. The horse lacks the essentials and start the starvation process.
Horses are a luxury item, when the economy bottoms out, you will see more horses sent to slaughter, more turned out, and more dying of starvation. People will feed their family before their horse. These people can't give the horse away, because all the neighbours have the same problem.
The drought also plays into this, more of the USA is suffering from drought causing hay prices to increase, therefore people cannot afford the feed, the horse is sent to slaughter, turned out of left to starve and die.
Horses life expectancy has drastically increased over the years, I seen a fox trotter was euthanized at 57. An old horse eats more then a young horse as they cannot process the food properly, and an old horse is useless, therefore something has to happen, they are sent to the auction, the farmer gets a little money, and farming/ranching is not a lucrative business so a little money is better then none.
Euthanization costs money, when people cannot afford to feed the horse, they sure can't afford to euthanize it, in addition pay for a backhoe to dig a hole, or pay for the meat truck to pick it up. Why pay money when you can make a little that will help feed your family by taking them to the auction.
I did the math one day and to adequately house a horse funded by the government would cost 10,000 per horse per year. For the horses who are processed in Canada on a yearly basis, if those horses were not processed and put into government protection, it would cost 10 billion per year.
To humanely euthanize and dispose of all the horses instead of processing them, it was in the hundreds of millions each year.
I would rather my taxes stay down, and the money be put towards improving human life.
Sadly there is no answer.
I know the op suggested trainers volunteer their time, trainers cannot afford to volunteer, they are not paid well enough to start.
I do know in Canada the amount of horses sold through an auction, especially foals has actually decreased over the years since the PMU barns closed down, this is solely due to the economy, and this will continue while horse prices are in the toilet.
Just to give an example, my town has a horse sale every month, the next horse sale to the north is over 3 hrs away, nothing to the west, to the south 11/2hrs away, and 2-3 hrs away to the east, quite a large area. There were 15 horses at the sale. In Alberta in the province I believe there is one horse sale per week somewhere, so not that often.
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| Just to be clear, in my original post I didnt make the suggestion that trainers volunteer their time. I was inspired to create this post on account of a trainer who does volunteer. However, I am well aware that most are not in a position to do so. Another reason for this post, to brainstorm other ways to help with the problem.
Some of the things I do as an idividual is donate money when I can to worthy organizations, refrain from breeding, try to provide good training to any horse I offer for sale so that they are desirable and will be wanted at a good home.
I didnt think about the abundance of brood mares that would potentially not have a purpose, good point. There are so many aspects to consider.
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Horses are livestock. Many people eat horses all over the world.
While I'm not going to send mine up the road, I don't understand the idea that it's okay to slaughter cows, but not horses. Cows definitely can have personalities and become just as much of a pet as a horse can.
I personally feel slaughter should be returned to the US so that it can humanely regulated as it is in Canada. There is no solution to end the need for slaughter. That idea is just not realistic. | |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | Fairweather - 2015-02-27 8:21 PM Just curious.....there's always been fluctuations in the number of horses through the years. We've had this same problem in decades past. Has anyone ever done a study on those fluctuations and compared it to what else was going on in the economy & society at the time and the numbers that were being registered? I'm just curious if there's maybe a trending that might offer some insight to a possible solution.
Yes, there was some type of study or at least article done about 2-3 years ago that I remember of. My brain is not working this morning -- maybe I'll think of where I read it later on today -- but it was in some major horse magazine (might be AQHA) or website. It was done when the economy was going bad and we were just starting to see drought effects/hay shortage. You can probably find it through Google and some like it. | |
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