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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
  
| smmthbr - 2015-03-10 11:20 AM
I am upset because it is FRAUD in the horse business and that isn't good for anyone else in the horse business. Â Hence the reason for the term HORSE TRADER being a negative implication. Â Most newbies getting into the horse industry or barrel world don't know enough about the foibles of buying a horse, especially one that's not real expensive, to make them require a vet check....they are naiive enough to trust the people selling the horse. Â It's usually just us that have been burned that now know better and will require a vet check. Â I know though that I have purchased inexpensive horses from trusted sources without going to the expense of a vet check. Â Yes, I understand Buyer Beware but really, shouldn't we all be trying to cultivate a better image through honest representation? Â I guess I will get over being SO UPSET and just shake my head at the lack of integrity and honesty and hope this good horse goes to someone that will treat him with respect due his age and not like he's a 14 year old. Â
I agree with you, I would be frustrated, as it is fraud.
It is misrepresenting a horse, and there have been many posts on Facebook and on here about fraudulent people.
It worries me about the people who don't care, as if people don't think this is immoral, then what are their morals, would they do the same thing?
There are buyer/seller beware Facebook pages, if you know for a fact what she is doing is fraudulent, you may want to put her name on one of those pages |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Well she's not the first and sure wont be the last.  |
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  Shipwrecked and Flat Out Zapped
Posts: 16390
Location: DUMPING CATS AND PIGS IN TEXAS :) | It's not that I don't think it's crappy, because it is, but you are upset over something that you have no control over. Does it happen? Yes. What can you do? Not much, but protect yourself when you go to buy from someone. It is sad, but that is what everyone needs to do now. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| TrailGirl - 2015-03-10 9:24 AM If the seller is KNOWINGLY mis-representing the age and breed status of this gelding...I'd wonder what else they might be lying about. Yes it's buyer beware...but right is right...and misrepresenting that horse is wrong no matter how ya slice it.
Ditto. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2128
| I would be stewing also if I knew someone was misrepresenting a horse on purpose. It is wrong. If someone I knew were going to look at the horse I wouldnt feel bad about letting them know. Hopefully all the potential buyers will be smart and have a vet check done. There is a woman in my area famous for doing that very thing. Anyone with a lick of sense around here wouldnt buy a goat from her. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 696
| scwebster - 2015-03-11 9:33 AM
I would be stewing also if I knew someone was misrepresenting a horse on purpose. It is wrong. If someone I knew were going to look at the horse I wouldnt feel bad about letting them know.  Hopefully all the potential buyers will be smart and have a vet check done. There is a woman in my area famous for doing that very thing. Anyone with a lick of sense around here wouldnt buy a goat from her.
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 Cute Little Imp
Posts: 2747
Location: N Texas | smmthbr - 2015-03-10 11:20 AM
I am upset because it is FRAUD in the horse business and that isn't good for anyone else in the horse business. Â Hence the reason for the term HORSE TRADER being a negative implication. Â Most newbies getting into the horse industry or barrel world don't know enough about the foibles of buying a horse, especially one that's not real expensive, to make them require a vet check....they are naiive enough to trust the people selling the horse. Â It's usually just us that have been burned that now know better and will require a vet check. Â I know though that I have purchased inexpensive horses from trusted sources without going to the expense of a vet check. Â Yes, I understand Buyer Beware but really, shouldn't we all be trying to cultivate a better image through honest representation? Â I guess I will get over being SO UPSET and just shake my head at the lack of integrity and honesty and hope this good horse goes to someone that will treat him with respect due his age and not like he's a 14 year old. Â
There's no justification for it, but it happens with EVERYTHING...used cars, used electronics...pretty much anything that can be sold, there will be dishonest sellers. |
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 I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
Location: Online | astreakinchic - 2015-03-10 9:26 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-03-10 11:24 AM rodeomom13 - 2015-03-10 10:15 AM Simple. The potential buyer should get a vet check. Any vet worth a pinch of poop could tell that he's 19, not 14. Then the potential buyer can call her out on the lie.
One of my biggest pet peeves is dishonest sellers, but you can't fix stupid, so it falls on buyer beware. I was told once after the age of 12 no person can really with accuracy determine the age of a horse. Most vets (even good ones ) would never be able to tell the difference between 19 and 14, only if the gelding were much older would be able to tell a large difference.
That's interesting. We bought a gelding that was thought to be 15, had the vet look at him and he said he's closer to 19. We bought him anyway because the price was right and he was the right horse for my daughter. We didn't sweat it. It has to do with the shape of the insisors. They are more triangle shaped. He even showed me pictures. You can tell if you are educated.
This is similar to what he showed us.... But his pics were of real horses.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 477
Location: Lost in the swamps | No. I worked in a clinc and A good vet should be able to tell the difference between and 15(give or take) and 20 year old! There are charts that go in intervals of 5 years. Anyone with horse since should know this! If not please educate yourself! 5 plus years is a big difference! |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Maybe you can somehow keep track of the horse and notify the new buyer? If the horse is advertised on FB maybe you should post the info you know. I agree with you, it IS really `crappy and it's not right to the new buyers, nor is it fair to the horse. At 19 that horse is entering into a time of physical changes. |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | ThreeCorners - 2015-03-10 1:33 PM Maybe you can somehow keep track of the horse and notify the new buyer? If the horse is advertised on FB maybe you should post the info you know. I agree with you, it IS really `crappy and it's not right to the new buyers, nor is it fair to the horse. At 19 that horse is entering into a time of physical changes.
+1
I know if I was a horse buyer, I would be grateful to someone who did make it an issue and brought it up to find that someone was doing this. Makes you wonder what's up with the papers? At the least I guess they didn't transfer them when they first got him and lost them = now grade? At the worst . . . makes you wonder if they went with another horse. You don't know what someone will do to make a sale sometimes.
Edited by Red Raider 2015-03-10 2:37 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| rodeomom13 - 2015-03-10 2:04 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-03-10 9:26 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-03-10 11:24 AM rodeomom13 - 2015-03-10 10:15 AM Simple. The potential buyer should get a vet check. Any vet worth a pinch of poop could tell that he's 19, not 14. Then the potential buyer can call her out on the lie.Â
One of my biggest pet peeves is dishonest sellers, but you can't fix stupid, so it falls on buyer beware. Â Â I was told once after the age of 12 no person can really with accuracy determine the age of a horse. Most vets (even good ones ) would never be able to tell the difference between 19 and 14, only if the gelding were much older would be able to tell a large difference.
This is similar to what he showed us.... But his pics were of real horses.
Â
Sigh well I assume most ppl on here go to their local dog and cat vet (and they term him a "good vet") and that vet would most likely not be able to tell the difference between 5 yrs unless he paid attention to dentistry and most don't. They really can only estimate ages near that 15-19 mark. My point was only if the gelding was in his 20s would you be able to tell a large noticeable difference. Most vets would be hesitant to say , "No he's not 14 he is 19." But yes some are good and would be able too.
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 Dog Rescue Hero
Posts: 1660
Location: Oklahoma City OK | Red Raider - 2015-03-10 2:36 PM ThreeCorners - 2015-03-10 1:33 PM Maybe you can somehow keep track of the horse and notify the new buyer? If the horse is advertised on FB maybe you should post the info you know. I agree with you, it IS really `crappy and it's not right to the new buyers, nor is it fair to the horse. At 19 that horse is entering into a time of physical changes.
+1
I know if I was a horse buyer, I would be grateful to someone who did make it an issue and brought it up to find that someone was doing this. Makes you wonder what's up with the papers? At the least I guess they didn't transfer them when they first got him and lost them = now grade? At the worst . . . makes you wonder if they went with another horse. You don't know what someone will do to make a sale sometimes.
I am assuming this person doesn't want to provide the actual registration papers for the following reasons:
a) The seller is trying to pass the horse off as being 14 when in fact he actually will be 20 in March, possibly believing he/she cannot get the kind of money he/she is asking for him as a 20 year old, but possibly could as a 14 year old.
b) The seller may not want to provide the registration papers so a possibe buyer cannot locate/contact a former owner to gain more information about the horse.
I have no reason to believe that this person does not have the horse's papers or could not retrieve them, if indeed, they were lost along the way.
Again, my suppositions...I can't think of any other reasons someone would NOT want to provide the papers with the horse. Surely a horse with registration papers, especially papers verifying exceptional pedigree and allowing a horse to also compete in AQHA would be of more value than one without papers, don't you think?
I also hate to see "loose papers"....I worked enough sale barns in my MUCH younger days to know that "loose" papers often got erroneously attached to grade horses...
I wouldn't know how to keep track of the horse if indeed he was sold as a grade horse. The original post that I saw on FB noting the horse for sale was quickly deleted. Perhaps they decided not to sell the horse after all.....but if they do continue to offer him for sale, I hope they represent the horse truthfully. I'm off my soapbox, done being SO UPSET and applaud all of you that agreed with me that it is wrong. |
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I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
Location: Online | astreakinchic - 2015-03-10 1:44 PM
rodeomom13 - 2015-03-10 2:04 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-03-10 9:26 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-03-10 11:24 AM rodeomom13 - 2015-03-10 10:15 AM Simple. The potential buyer should get a vet check. Any vet worth a pinch of poop could tell that he's 19, not 14. Then the potential buyer can call her out on the lie.Â
One of my biggest pet peeves is dishonest sellers, but you can't fix stupid, so it falls on buyer beware. Â Â I was told once after the age of 12 no person can really with accuracy determine the age of a horse. Most vets (even good ones ) would never be able to tell the difference between 19 and 14, only if the gelding were much older would be able to tell a large difference.
This is similar to what he showed us.... But his pics were of real horses.
Â
Sigh well I assume most ppl on here go to their local dog and cat vet (and they term him a "good vet" ) and that vet would most likely not be able to tell the difference between 5 yrs unless he paid attention to dentistry and most don't. They really can only estimate ages near that 15-19 mark. My point was only if the gelding was in his 20s would you be able to tell a large noticeable difference. Most vets would be hesitant to say , "No he's not 14 he is 19." But yes some are good and would be able too.
 My vet is one of the best horse vets in the northwest. I'm pretty sure he could tell. |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | cheryl makofka - 2015-03-10 10:24 AM rodeomom13 - 2015-03-10 10:15 AM Simple. The potential buyer should get a vet check. Any vet worth a pinch of poop could tell that he's 19, not 14. Then the potential buyer can call her out on the lie.
One of my biggest pet peeves is dishonest sellers, but you can't fix stupid, so it falls on buyer beware. I was told once after the age of 12 no person can really with accuracy determine the age of a horse.
That's total BS unless someone took power tools and purposely took them down to scam someone. A good dentist can always get within 2 years. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| rodeomom13 - 2015-03-10 4:15 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-03-10 1:44 PM
rodeomom13 - 2015-03-10 2:04 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-03-10 9:26 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-03-10 11:24 AM rodeomom13 - 2015-03-10 10:15 AM Simple. The potential buyer should get a vet check. Any vet worth a pinch of poop could tell that he's 19, not 14. Then the potential buyer can call her out on the lie.Â
One of my biggest pet peeves is dishonest sellers, but you can't fix stupid, so it falls on buyer beware. Â Â I was told once after the age of 12 no person can really with accuracy determine the age of a horse. Most vets (even good ones ) would never be able to tell the difference between 19 and 14, only if the gelding were much older would be able to tell a large difference.
This is similar to what he showed us.... But his pics were of real horses.
Â
Sigh well I assume most ppl on here go to their local dog and cat vet (and they term him a "good vet" ) and that vet would most likely not be able to tell the difference between 5 yrs unless he paid attention to dentistry and most don't. They really can only estimate ages near that 15-19 mark. My point was only if the gelding was in his 20s would you be able to tell a large noticeable difference. Most vets would be hesitant to say , "No he's not 14 he is 19." But yes some are good and would be able too.
My vet is one of the best horse vets in the northwest. I'm pretty sure he could tell.
It was nothing snippy to you and i apologize if you took it that way. I'm glad you go to a vet that would be one of the good ones I mentioned and would be able to tell a difference and have the guts to say he did notice a difference in the age you stated and the age he noticed from inspection of the teeth.
Back on topic: If the OP is concerned you could post on fb pages that she is misrepresenting the gelding and to pm you for more info with screen shots of said horse. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Nevertooold - 2015-03-10 4:31 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-03-10 10:24 AM rodeomom13 - 2015-03-10 10:15 AM Simple. The potential buyer should get a vet check. Any vet worth a pinch of poop could tell that he's 19, not 14. Then the potential buyer can call her out on the lie.Â
One of my biggest pet peeves is dishonest sellers, but you can't fix stupid, so it falls on buyer beware. Â Â I was told once after the age of 12 no person can really with accuracy determine the age of a horse.
MY point LOL Mostly only dentists are going to get very accurate! |
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 Ima Fickle Fan
Posts: 3547
Location: Texas | To the OP, I would also be upset. I would also be frustrated because I couldn't change the outcome unless I personally bought the horse. Is it fraud? You betcha.
And I know papers can also be switched, but this is probably the biggest reason I stay away from grade horses. Not saying that great ones aren't out there. I just don't always buy the excuses that go along with grade horses. |
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Location: Texas | To the OP, I would feel the exact same way. Yes, there will always be people who lie and have no morals, but it's hard to sit back and watch someone lie - especially when it's a "close to home" type thing.
It's a shame that we do have to beware of so much and can't take people at their word anymore.
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 pressure dripper
Posts: 8696
Location: the end of the rainbow | yep, wrong is wrong. I would be upset too. Unfortunately yet another reason I am hesitant to buy a grade horse or a used saddle unless I personally know the seller. |
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