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  A Lady with Fight
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Location: NC | Why not just train rate into a horse? |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | hlynn - 2015-03-15 9:58 PM
Why not just train rate into a horse?
because in a lot of cases, we've bred the rate right out of them. |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| I dont think Ive been on a website where they take things out of context so much...From my OP...
"it seems the average horse and jockey cant make it happen" |
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 Saint Stacey
| The lower end average jockey lacks feel and can't judge stride length. Rate is nothing more than collecting the stride. To collect, you have to gather. Where that gather comes depends on the horse. Vegas has a lot of natural rate. You spot her maybe 1 stride before the pocket simply by saying whoa, sitting down hard and lifting. Her 1/2 sister wants to be too fast and is still fairly green. You you to rate the same way but about 3 strides earlier than Vegas. A lot of people also slice first because they have no idea where they are in the turn and where to put their horse. They lack consistency and focus. Or they over ride because they think they are helping their horse. Develop feel, focus and consistency and you no longer have average. JMHO.
Edited by SKM 2015-03-16 8:09 AM
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 Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | I see a lot of runs where the horse is running like a banshee and the rider is whipping and kicking the entire way. They are placing in the 1D, but the run looks like crap. There's no rate, no collection, just balls to the walls running. The arguement is, well, it's a barrel race, isn't it? I can only imagine how much faster that run would be if it was collected and done correctly. I fully believe the "smooth is fast" technique.
I have a 1D mare that looks like she is running in the 3D. People are confused when I shut the clock off. I love her style and thankfully she is pretty automatic! |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| WrapSnap - 2015-03-15 10:09 PM
hlynn - 2015-03-15 9:58 PM
Why not just train rate into a horse?
because in a lot of cases, we've bred the rate right out of them.
I don't agree with that at all! Rate is the ability to shorten the stride and prepare for a turn. Just because we have high powered running lines doesn't mean that they don't have the ability to or the ability to learn how to rate.......
I think that's one of my biggest peeves when I hear people say that the horse is just really strong... I don't care how strong he/she is... when I ask for one to shut down and get collected I expect it to happen, not run clear to the fence because it's bred that way and really strong. No, it's happening because people have missed or skipped some foundation work!
Now, when your finishing a horse out, they can't be constantly held back. They have to be given the chance to run in there how we expect them to when they are finished. Some miss the mark a few times and others excel. |
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 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | SKM - 2015-03-16 7:08 AM The lower end average jockey lacks feel and can't judge stride length. Rate is nothing more than collecting the stride. To collect, you have to gather. Where that gather comes depends on the horse. Vegas has a lot of natural rate. You spot her maybe 1 stride before the pocket simply by saying whoa, sitting down hard and lifting. Her 1/2 sister wants to be too fast and is still fairly green. You you to rate the same way but about 3 strides earlier than Vegas. A lot of people also slice first because they have no idea where they are in the turn and where to put their horse. They lack consistency and focus. Or they over ride because they think they are helping their horse. Develop feel, focus and consistency and you no longer have average. JMHO.
Very very true.
I'm running 4 different horses this year and nailing the first on each of them is a challenge because they all need something a little different from me, and I've had to learn to do the right things on each horse consistently so they can all succeed. It seems to me that if we spent a little time walking the pattern and thinking about where each horse's rate point is, we would have more luck finding that consistency and nailing the first barrel on a regular basis. |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | FlyingJT - 2015-03-16 1:56 PM
WrapSnap - 2015-03-15 10:09 PM
hlynn - 2015-03-15 9:58 PM
Why not just train rate into a horse?
because in a lot of cases, we've bred the rate right out of them.
I don't agree with that at all! Rate is the ability to shorten the stride and prepare for a turn. Just because we have high powered running lines doesn't mean that they don't have the ability to or the ability to learn how to rate.......
I think that's one of my biggest peeves when I hear people say that the horse is just really strong... I don't care how strong he/she is... when I ask for one to shut down and get collected I expect it to happen, not run clear to the fence because it's bred that way and really strong. No, it's happening because people have missed or skipped some foundation work!
Now, when your finishing a horse out, they can't be constantly held back. They have to be given the chance to run in there how we expect them to when they are finished. Some miss the mark a few times and others excel.
Disagree with it if you will, but it is a fact. Yes, we can train rate into any horse. I do it on a daily basis. The thing is however, that in order to win a barrel race in this day and age, we have to have a horse who has the desire to go to a barrel and turn naturally. There have certainly been straight race lines that have proven to have a good amount of natural rate, but there are many more that don't. In today's world of specialized breeding, there are horses that are bred to run down the track in a straight line and there are horses that are bred to run barrels. |
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Itchy Boobs
Posts: 360
| i have a mare if you dont gun to the first barrel shes gonna lope the whole pattern. |
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 Sock eating dog owner
Posts: 4553
Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | Those who have done there home work seem to do it smoothly.True many riders don't have that feel in a horses' stride but that is consistent with lack of knowledge.The truth is a horse and rider that can nail that first barrel with speed will already be 3 seconds ahead of the other competitors just off the clock alone.So if the home work is done and can nail that first barrel your going to shut off the clock. |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| cow pie - 2015-03-17 10:11 AM Those who have done there home work seem to do it smoothly.True many riders don't have that feel in a horses' stride but that is consistent with lack of knowledge.The truth is a horse and rider that can nail that first barrel with speed will already be 3 seconds ahead of the other competitors just off the clock alone.So if the home work is done and can nail that first barrel your going to shut off the clock.
Nope |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Itsme - 2015-03-17 10:41 AM cow pie - 2015-03-17 10:11 AM Those who have done there home work seem to do it smoothly.True many riders don't have that feel in a horses' stride but that is consistent with lack of knowledge.The truth is a horse and rider that can nail that first barrel with speed will already be 3 seconds ahead of the other competitors just off the clock alone.So if the home work is done and can nail that first barrel your going to shut off the clock. Nope
Maybe true for some horses but Lauren, cusual dust, is an example of one that goes 3/4's to the first for more control then turns her lose and still can win a big race by a few tenths. |
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 Ms. Elvis
Posts: 9606
Location: Running barrels or watching nascar | They're all outrunning me but I'd rather be correct first and then speed will come. Slow down to be fast. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 591
| WrapSnap - 2015-03-16 8:45 PM
FlyingJT - 2015-03-16 1:56 PM
WrapSnap - 2015-03-15 10:09 PM
hlynn - 2015-03-15 9:58 PM
Why not just train rate into a horse?
because in a lot of cases, we've bred the rate right out of them.
I don't agree with that at all! Rate is the ability to shorten the stride and prepare for a turn. Just because we have high powered running lines doesn't mean that they don't have the ability to or the ability to learn how to rate.......
I think that's one of my biggest peeves when I hear people say that the horse is just really strong... I don't care how strong he/she is... when I ask for one to shut down and get collected I expect it to happen, not run clear to the fence because it's bred that way and really strong. No, it's happening because people have missed or skipped some foundation work!
Now, when your finishing a horse out, they can't be constantly held back. They have to be given the chance to run in there how we expect them to when they are finished. Some miss the mark a few times and others excel.
Disagree with it if you will, but it is a fact. Yes, we can train rate into any horse. I do it on a daily basis. The thing is however, that in order to win a barrel race in this day and age, we have to have a horse who has the desire to go to a barrel and turn naturally. There have certainly been straight race lines that have proven to have a good amount of natural rate, but there are many more that don't. In today's world of specialized breeding, there are horses that are bred to run down the track in a straight line and there are horses that are bred to run barrels.
Agree with you WrapSnap. It's a lot easier to get a Fame, Firewater or Frenchman to rate a turn than a Cartel or Chicks Beduino. The first set I listed WANT to do it. It's bred in them, it's not hard, and you barely have to train them to do it. The second set certainly can, but just don't really want to all the time. That is just speaking from my experiences though... |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | Itsme - 2015-03-14 11:25 PM if they ran a little slower and more controlled to the 1st barrel? I swear 70% of the racers I watch run in wayyy hard and screw up their 1st, the best of the best can do it but it seems the average horse and jockey cant make it happen. Am I wrong?
I don't know about 70% but I do know that many girls seem to have adopted the Miley Cyrus "I came in like a wrecking ball" approach and it probably doesn't help in the long run. I can post because I think on some of my horses I've been guilty in the past.
The one thing that I have always found interesting with the Brazilian barrel racers is how most are able to complete some fast patterns with a fairly slow (compared to most of our runs) start. I know I could probably learn from watching them more on how they are able to have an almost non-speed start and finish out quickly. Granted, many of the patterns they run on are smaller than most of us see but it's interesting to compare.
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | Red Raider - 2015-03-17 2:21 PM Itsme - 2015-03-14 11:25 PM if they ran a little slower and more controlled to the 1st barrel? I swear 70% of the racers I watch run in wayyy hard and screw up their 1st, the best of the best can do it but it seems the average horse and jockey cant make it happen. Am I wrong? I don't know about 70% but I do know that many girls seem to have adopted the Miley Cyrus "I came in like a wrecking ball" approach and it probably doesn't help in the long run. I can post because I think on some of my horses I've been guilty in the past.
The one thing that I have always found interesting with the Brazilian barrel racers is how most are able to complete some fast patterns with a fairly slow (compared to most of our runs) start. I know I could probably learn from watching them more on how they are able to have an almost non-speed start and finish out quickly. Granted, many of the patterns they run on are smaller than most of us see but it's interesting to compare.
That slower approach or shorter run to the first works for some horses but not for all. My gray horse needs a long run to the first to build up some speed, and the harder I send him into the first, the better he clocks. My sorrel rodeo horse, however, cannot handle full speed to first yet so I'm keeping him reeled in a little bit until he learns that there is no more stifle pain when he goes to come around it. He's fast enough to still win just barely loping to first, but I'm interested to see how things go as he gets more post-maintenance runs under his belt. |
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 Angel in a Sorrel Coat
Posts: 16030
Location: In a happy place | rodeomom3 - 2015-03-17 11:40 AM Itsme - 2015-03-17 10:41 AM cow pie - 2015-03-17 10:11 AM Those who have done there home work seem to do it smoothly.True many riders don't have that feel in a horses' stride but that is consistent with lack of knowledge.The truth is a horse and rider that can nail that first barrel with speed will already be 3 seconds ahead of the other competitors just off the clock alone.So if the home work is done and can nail that first barrel your going to shut off the clock. Nope
Yes to what rodeomom said. And I can't tell you which horse and what years but I seem to remember Jackie (Dube) at that time that had a horse she nearly loped to the first barrel then let 'em roll and she won lots of barrel races. |
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 ND Sweetheart
Posts: 3471
Location: In My Own Dream Land | I'm not one of those that has won at big levels, but I have went to a few ammy rodeo finals, won jackpots etc. The horse I won on, was one that you loped to the first, and rode for all you're worth the rest of the pattern. He would clock. He was very long strided, but would run to the fence is you sent him to the first. I now have one who I think I will be able to send, in time, but have only made 10 runs together and I still have the "fence runner" in the back of my mind. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 747
| We used to run against a girl that would literally LOPE to the first, then her mare would fire out of the first and smoke a patter. Kicked all of our butts every. Single. Time. |
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Sock eating dog owner
Posts: 4553
Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | sorrel horse ranch - 2015-03-17 3:07 PM
rodeomom3 - 2015-03-17 11:40 AM Itsme - 2015-03-17 10:41 AM cow pie - 2015-03-17 10:11 AM Those who have done there home work seem to do it smoothly.True many riders don't have that feel in a horses' stride but that is consistent with lack of knowledge.The truth is a horse and rider that can nail that first barrel with speed will already be 3 seconds ahead of the other competitors just off the clock alone.So if the home work is done and can nail that first barrel your going to shut off the clock. Nope
You have missed my point. One going in fast and nailing it. You may not win cause you have second and third but time a horse coming in and nailing it, by the time 3 seconds have hit the clock that horse and rider are half way across heading for second barrel... the first barrel is the money barrel. |
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