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  Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
   
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | When they're sold / ran as a business, then the answer is yes the personal opinion is more important to them. People do what it takes to keep making money.
On the flip side, there are other disciplines horses could go to and not require continuing injection. Of course that sometimes requires making the decision early enough on, prior to them being so bad that they need injections just to track sound walking. But I tend to think if I found out early on my horse had a degenerative issue that was going to require injections to keep him together, I'd find him something else for him to do that was less stressful on him. But then again, it's not about money for me and it doesn't have to be. |
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 Heeler Hoarder
Posts: 2067
| I just attended a clinic a few weekends ago and it AMAZED me the number of people riding around with THREE LEGGED LAME horses ! That is inexcusable ! I am not in it for the money either but if my $25,000 4yo needs injected to give her that next half a second off and she's TELLING me she is sore I'm not going to turn her out for a year and start all over. I have always injected and run them well into their late teen years with no problems. I guess I'm not understanding what people think it hurts? |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Ever had your joint injected personally?
But more importantly, every time you inject into the joint you run the risk of infecting the joint, and joint injections run a very high risk of death. It is very hard to make sure bacteria doesn't get into the joint even with optimum conditions and top not disinfecting. It is not something to be taken lightly, and more risk than I would want to take on a regular basis.
Ask Amy Lamon about her experience with the last joint injection she had done on one she was running.. |
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 Ms. Marine
Posts: 4641
Location: Texas | To each their own.
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| I'm curious what these anti injection ppl do when their horse gets sore? And I do t wanna here your jorse doesn't because they ALL do no matter what. Do you go to the vet? If so do you allow them to block so they can find the source of the pain to distinguish between bone or tissue injuries? If the vet says he needs injections do you refuse them and opt for pain management like ketaphin bute or DMSO jugging? I mean there is no getting around hock injections unless you want to surgically fuse. |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | astreakinchic - 2015-04-22 3:12 PM I'm curious what these anti injection ppl do when their horse gets sore? And I do t wanna here your jorse doesn't because they ALL do no matter what. Do you go to the vet? If so do you allow them to block so they can find the source of the pain to distinguish between bone or tissue injuries? If the vet says he needs injections do you refuse them and opt for pain management like ketaphin bute or DMSO jugging? I mean there is no getting around hock injections unless you want to surgically fuse.
Amy Laymon would be a good one to ask. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Fairweather - 2015-04-22 4:13 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-04-22 3:12 PM I'm curious what these anti injection ppl do when their horse gets sore? And I do t wanna here your jorse doesn't because they ALL do no matter what. Do you go to the vet? If so do you allow them to block so they can find the source of the pain to distinguish between bone or tissue injuries? If the vet says he needs injections do you refuse them and opt for pain management like ketaphin bute or DMSO jugging? I mean there is no getting around hock injections unless you want to surgically fuse.
Amy Laymon would be a good one to ask.Â
I kno amy and the trials she went through with that horse. Freak accidents occur...infections and even an OD on steroids from one owner injecting and not disclosing that to the current owner.
She has some different theories and thoughts about things for sure. I guess it's working for her program. I jus don't see anyone who consistently year after year is in the top large open shows rodeos or futurity that does not work closely with a vet to figure out pain issues. It used to be horses had to be tough to make it before we knew about pain. Get a bigger bit, get meaner, and force them to work and the good ones were the ones that did their job regardless....we know better now.
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-04-22 3:24 PM
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Maybe they have 986557569 back up horses... 
Amy does think differently and has an open mind, and she has done very well and obviously what she does is working. It would be interesting to get her take. |
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Expert
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I'm just curious what yall would do with a 20k prospect that your getting ready for OKC in December and he comes up hock sore? I guess I care more about my happiness by injecting him so he's out of pain and can work. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Fairweather - 2015-04-22 2:44 PM
 Ever had your joint injected personally?Â
But more importantly, every time you inject into the joint you run the risk of infecting the joint, and joint injections run a very high risk of death. It is very hard to make sure bacteria doesn't get into the joint even with optimum conditions and top not disinfecting. It is not something to be taken lightly, and more risk than I would want to take on a regular basis.Â
Ask Amy Lamon about her experience with the last joint injection she had done on one she was running..
Actually it all depends on how the vet injects, this is where people need to be educated.
Most bacteria is removed by mechanical means (scrubbing). The research shows 7 min minimum is the number to remove all bacteria from an injection site. My vet times me for 7 min on each leg when I am getting injections, the chlorahexadine is anti microbial and it will also kill the bacteria if you use within the intended use, no vets should not be refilling their squirt bottles without sterilizing first as refilling the bottles can cause chemical resistant microbes to be in the solution. After the 7 min scrub alcohol should be applied to rid any other pathogens left on the surface, then the vet needs to use sterile technique to inject.
I remember Amy posting on here about her horse, and different people/different vets the outcome may have been different
I have had a horse with infected joints 2/4 both pasterns, my horse was not injected by my usual vet but a competent vet. I was 16 yrs old and when he broke sterile procedure I knew and I should have stopped him, but I didnt. Next day my horse couldn't move, long story short my horse suffered for 2 weeks till my vet got back because all other vets would not see my horse as they were covering the ass of the vet who screwed up.
My horse received proper care, a joint culture, flushing of over 1 gallon of saline through each joint over 12 hrs, antibiotics left in overnight repeat flush the next day antibiotic over night repeat flush then HA injection.
He came back sound as before and ran competitively for 8 yrs after when he was retired sound (to the naked eye, still running good, no drugs given)
Also most vets give a steroid to alleviate the pain my vet uses trimethisclione (only one proven to promote cartilage regeneration) a bit of antibiotic mine uses gentamicin, and hyluronic acid
Yes there is chance of infection, yes there is chance of joint flare, and yes there is a greater chance of your horse being comfortable after injection
Edited by cheryl makofka 2015-04-22 4:26 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I want to ask the anti injectors do you sedate and float teeth?
If injections are performed properly there is actually less incidence of an adverse reaction happening with injections then with routine sedation
Routine sedation 1:1000 an adverse event occurs, this includes death, injury, cardiac damage, anaphylaxis, etc |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I want to ask the anti injectors do you sedate and float teeth?
If injections are performed properly there is actually less incidence of an adverse reaction happening with injections then with routine sedation
Routine sedation 1:1000 an adverse event occurs, this includes death, injury, cardiac damage, anaphylaxis, etc |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| FLITASTIC - 2015-04-22 1:35 PM
rodeowithjoker - 2015-04-22 11:18 AM
Fairweather - 2015-04-22 12:56 PM On the flip side........what if she had said I will inject, shoe, etc to make sure they keep running? Isn't that just as bad?Â
The jury is still out for me, but I have a tendency to think if they require the injections, etc and that much upkeep why make them keep running and tear them down further? Why not release them to do another discipline that doesn't require all that? That really is kinder for the horse.Â
I think there is a happy medium between never injecting and injecting way too much. One of my rodeo horses needs his coffin joints injected a couple times a year, and I think the other one is going to need at least one stifle injected periodically. I don't think that constitutes outrageous maintenance because these horses love their job and want to do it even if it hurts a little. It is my job as their owner to figure out when they are hurting and fix it. My old bay horse would not be happy doing another job.....he loves to run barrels.....so I owe it to him to keep him feeling as good as I can as long as I can. I am also crossing my fingers that someday he will decide to slow down and become a pee wee horse. LOL>
There is a difference in the joints you inject to. Hocks can be injected as many times as you want, worst that can happen is the steroid fuses the hock and the horse is pain free anyway. Coffin joints are another issue. Coffins will last less and less the more times you do them. And eventually when the steroid destroys the coffin joint then horse will need to be euthanized. I have ONE horse that needs coffins done but have found for him keeping the hocks done takes the stress off the front end and he stays sound. Also used OSPHOS and pentosan/Polyglycan.
I have to disagree with your comment about multiple injections on the coffin joint
There is one certain steroid Trimisclione that actually has shown to regenerate cartilage in the studies.
Methylprednisone it actually says on the container not for use in high motion joints, and has been proven to break down cartilage.
Frequent injections yes there is the chance of scar tissue, but this is where the vet and owner must weigh the pros and cons of the procedure.
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | I inject.. I sedate.. Im not anti inject.. I just dont feel that people should judge or be harsh on ones that dont its their horse.. yes many are sore.. but its their horse.. |
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 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | FLITASTIC - 2015-04-22 1:35 PM rodeowithjoker - 2015-04-22 11:18 AM Fairweather - 2015-04-22 12:56 PM On the flip side........what if she had said I will inject, shoe, etc to make sure they keep running? Isn't that just as bad?
The jury is still out for me, but I have a tendency to think if they require the injections, etc and that much upkeep why make them keep running and tear them down further? Why not release them to do another discipline that doesn't require all that? That really is kinder for the horse. I think there is a happy medium between never injecting and injecting way too much. One of my rodeo horses needs his coffin joints injected a couple times a year, and I think the other one is going to need at least one stifle injected periodically. I don't think that constitutes outrageous maintenance because these horses love their job and want to do it even if it hurts a little. It is my job as their owner to figure out when they are hurting and fix it. My old bay horse would not be happy doing another job.....he loves to run barrels.....so I owe it to him to keep him feeling as good as I can as long as I can. I am also crossing my fingers that someday he will decide to slow down and become a pee wee horse. LOL> There is a difference in the joints you inject to. Hocks can be injected as many times as you want, worst that can happen is the steroid fuses the hock and the horse is pain free anyway. Coffin joints are another issue. Coffins will last less and less the more times you do them. And eventually when the steroid destroys the coffin joint then horse will need to be euthanized. I have ONE horse that needs coffins done but have found for him keeping the hocks done takes the stress off the front end and he stays sound. Also used OSPHOS and pentosan/Polyglycan.
Strange that you say coffin joints will last less the more you do them. I had Chance's done in May 2014, August 2014 (3 1/2 months), then they needed done again April 1st this year (7 1/2 months). His hocks have never shown any signs of problems and numerous vets have looked at him so I don't think his problems are related to anything other than small feet, straight pasterns and being a 1D horse. |
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 Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
Location: Texas | I love seeing that everyone actually seems to be "discussing" instead of "arguing" it makes it so much more educational, and I love to hear everyones opinions!
I have nothing against this girl or anyone against injecting, I just found it strange to see someone who a lot of people know post something to make her seem better because she doesn't inject, we are barrel racers, I imagine a lot of people read that and shook their head lol
I use to think I would never have anything injected, it scared me so much. But when my vet said it NEEDED to be done I said okay and then stood there with my horse and cried because I thought this was the end of the world and he was gonna be completely messed up. I had no information other than negative stuff on here(granted I never really payed attention either so I just didn't know). Now I've done my research and I know my horse and I know how to handle going about injections and he has all 4 feet shoed and last week my vet said he was the soundest/healthiest he has been in the 4 years i've hd him, and he hasn't had any work done since october. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| outrundaizy - 2015-04-23 1:14 AM I love seeing that everyone actually seems to be "discussing" instead of "arguing" it makes it so much more educational, and I love to hear everyones opinions!
I have nothing against this girl or anyone against injecting, I just found it strange to see someone who a lot of people know post something to make her seem better because she doesn't inject, we are barrel racers, I imagine a lot of people read that and shook their head lol
I use to think I would never have anything injected, it scared me so much. But when my vet said it NEEDED to be done I said okay and then stood there with my horse and cried because I thought this was the end of the world and he was gonna be completely messed up. I had no information other than negative stuff on here(granted I never really payed attention either so I just didn't know). Now I've done my research and I know my horse and I know how to handle going about injections and he has all 4 feet shoed and last week my vet said he was the soundest/healthiest he has been in the 4 years i've hd him, and he hasn't had any work done since october.
See thats the problem joe blow that doesn't know, doesn't go up and down the road, and doesn't have numerous horses in the barn gets on here and talks about how they are against injecting, which is fine they are intitled to their opinion. Â I don't care if they don't wanna keep their horse happy at his job and like I said if their horse quits clocking its just more money in the purse for us to win with them donating their entry fees. Â My problem and the reason I'm being a lil harsh is because people come here FOR HELP. Â New people to the sport that buy a starter horse and someone tells them their horse looks hock sore and needs injecting. So they google and see ppl talking about "you care more about your happness than your horses if you inject", it will only scare them from injecting which is probably something their beginner horse REALLY needs to stay sound and happy with his job. Â We are past the days of forcing horses to work in pain. Â Cheryl posted wonderful information that I hope people that are against injecting look at and absorb. I once overheard a vet talking with another client about injections and the vet said, "Will let me tell you this you have more risk of him getting an injection from that IV shot of banamine and dex you need to give him all 3 days of the weekend than you do this injection i'm going to give." Â Injecting a joint does NOT mean you care about yourself and not your horse. Â Your doing what is best to keep your horse sound MENTALLY and phsyically so that he can perform at his best. Â Get away from the sterotypes. Â Saying all injections are bad is the equivalent to saying all futurity horses get blew up. Â BTW most futurity horses get the "blew up" title not because you go too fast with them etc but because they are in PAIN and the owner either A.) can't see it or B.) refuses to inject. Â If your an owner and we tell you your horse is sore and needs vetting but you say well I don't believe in injections, then we will just tell you to come get him. Â NOT going to tune and get rough on him to make him work when pain is his only problem.Â
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Edited by astreakinchic 2015-04-23 7:37 AM
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 More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | outrundaizy - 2015-04-21 11:10 PM I saw a FB post by someone who has won a few good titles in her career, and to me it came off a little snobby. It was something a long the lines of "No horse of hers will ever have a needle in its joints or shoes on its feet"
Which I think is great if your horse can live happily that way. But what if your horse has navicular or something wrong with its feet? Or arthritis in its hocks or ankles? Something you can't control?
Do you just end its career? Or dope it up on pain killers? The comment made me feel bad for injecting my horses hocks, but you know what, if that's what makes him happy and as long as he loves to run barrels then why wouldn't I?
Idk what my point is with this.. Just a rant I guess
I saw that interview and know who your talking about. I'll keep my horses happy and comfortable and that includes shoeing. |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| I think it depends entirely on the horse. I am not anti-anything if my vet and I agree it's the right thing for that horse.
I struggle a bit with getting injection crazy on young horses - if you're injecting at 4 or 5 what are you going to be doing by the time the horse is 9 or 10?
I struggle with injecting more than 2x's a year, if the horse is soring up again that quickly, I don't think it is fair to keep them going down the road.
I struggle with injecting multiple joints multiple times a year. Again, if that's needed, is this the right job for the horse?
At the same time, I'd never had a 1D or rodeo competitive horse to keep going down the road who was otherwise happy and healthy - but the welfare of the animal comes first. |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| Fairweather - 2015-04-22 2:44 PM
 Ever had your joint injected personally?Â
But more importantly, every time you inject into the joint you run the risk of infecting the joint, and joint injections run a very high risk of death. It is very hard to make sure bacteria doesn't get into the joint even with optimum conditions and top not disinfecting. It is not something to be taken lightly, and more risk than I would want to take on a regular basis.Â
Ask Amy Lamon about her experience with the last joint injection she had done on one she was running..
I have had my knee injected. It hurt like h3ll. I could not believe the improvement in my knee after that though. The only problem was that I had a torn meniscus and injecting it was not really the answer. The surgeon was trying to what he could to avoid surgery. |
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