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Good Ole Boys just Fine with Me
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Location: SE Missouri | Wow incredible! I've got one that has been off looking all winter. I've just made some changes but may look into this feed!! |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Okay I tried last night and this morning. Maybe its my internet but the dealer locator page won't come up for me. Closest dealer to ft. smith Arkansas for this stuff? Please pm me!
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-05-14 6:44 AM
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | In all your research have you learned of a way or place to test these organisms/products for actual viability?
I remember the contraversy with the yeast based product prior to Probios (name escapes me) anyhow- they were very temperature sensitive and the chain of command was most often compromised and the bacteria was killed due to temp before the end user bought and used them. Not to mention the customer not storing them properly.
I have not been able to find any double blind studies yet that prove efficacy of hind gut utilization?
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 Go Your Own Way
Posts: 4947
Location: SE KS | Rach - they look great - I will take pictures of Dinero - He is shiny, fat and looks so good. Love Blue Bonnet! Glad i changed.
My other boys look good too. hair coat is shiny - I agree with you - no gut no horse.
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 Balance Beam and more...
Posts: 11511
Location: 31 lengths farms | Longneck - 2015-05-14 4:37 PM
run n rate - 2015-05-13 6:25 PM
My big mare would benefit greatly I think, any dealers in CA? Northern CA to be more specific, or So. Oregon?
They have a dealer locator in their webpage, but I do know that they can ship the Transform supplement
The dealer locator has you put in your Zip and then the furthest you can search is with in 300miles, nothing comes up. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| run n rate - 2015-05-14 1:06 PM
Longneck - 2015-05-14 4:37 PM
run n rate - 2015-05-13 6:25 PM
My big mare would benefit greatly I think, any dealers in CA? Northern CA to be more specific, or So. Oregon?
They have a dealer locator in their webpage, but I do know that they can ship the Transform supplement
The dealer locator has you put in your Zip and then the furthest you can search is with in 300miles, nothing comes up.
Yeah I don't get anything to come up either |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| TurnLane - 2015-05-14 8:50 AM In all your research have you learned of a way or place to test these organisms/products for actual viability?
I remember the contraversy with the yeast based product prior to Probios (name escapes me) anyhow- they were very temperature sensitive and the chain of command was most often compromised and the bacteria was killed due to temp before the end user bought and used them. Not to mention the customer not storing them properly.
I have not been able to find any double blind studies yet that prove efficacy of hind gut utilization?
Are you looking for feed specific studies? Those will 99% of the time only be funded by the feed company and not double blind.
There are a plethora of independent peer - reviewed journal articles looking at hind gut fermentation in horses fed different probiotics and yeast cultures that prove the usefulness of said cultures - For example, one can increase plant cell wall digestion with the addition of S. cerevisiae (yeast). I suggest using the Google Scholar search engine to find journal articles ....
Also, interestingly enough, many of these bacteria and yeast cultures in probiotics and prebiotics are quite hardy and can survive temperature swings as well as UV light. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| On all the hind gut stuff. I had a holistic vet/chiro guy tell me that only certain kinds of probiotics will work for a horse because they are not live cultures. He sold/pushed probi which must be refrigerated once opened and is super expensive $262.47 a gallon! I know some cutters/reiners that are just crazy about it. Also, it has a big following in FL where this vet resides.
I thought it was all bull. Once you put bacteria cultures into the stomach they should in theory grow just like they would on stomach pH simulated nutrient agar. I don't wanna an extremely stressed out horse's stomach pH would just kill all of the cultures you were feeding them.
I worked in the microbiology lab during undergrad and took samples of forco and probios in to be located at just out of crusty because she let us culture anything we wanted, even poop LOL It wasn't a super scientific study I was a freshman in college, anyways both grew out just fine. I wanted to test the effectiveness of these at different pH's but my senior seminar professional persuaded me to go more wildlife conservationist to my area so i'd have something to talk about if I wanted to interview for a conservationist job. Wish
Sometimes I wonder if regular plain yogurt and yeast culture that you buy in bulk for whole foods wouldn't do the job just as well. Long ago they used to tell you to feed your horse plain vanilla yogurt after stressful injuries or surgery.
I'd like to try this DSI supplement, but sometimes I wonder... |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | lindseylou2290 - 2015-05-14 12:19 PM TurnLane - 2015-05-14 8:50 AM In all your research have you learned of a way or place to test these organisms/products for actual viability?
I remember the contraversy with the yeast based product prior to Probios (name escapes me) anyhow- they were very temperature sensitive and the chain of command was most often compromised and the bacteria was killed due to temp before the end user bought and used them. Not to mention the customer not storing them properly.
I have not been able to find any double blind studies yet that prove efficacy of hind gut utilization?
Are you looking for feed specific studies? Those will 99% of the time only be funded by the feed company and not double blind.
There are a plethora of independent peer - reviewed journal articles looking at hind gut fermentation in horses fed different probiotics and yeast cultures that prove the usefulness of said cultures - For example, one can increase plant cell wall digestion with the addition of S. cerevisiae (yeast). I suggest using the Google Scholar search engine to find journal articles ....
Also, interestingly enough, many of these bacteria and yeast cultures in probiotics and prebiotics are quite hardy and can survive temperature swings as well as UV light.
I googled, I guess not good enough? I knew RG has been deep in it so I wondered if she crossed this part in her research. Always the skeptic, I dont want to buy a tub of dead enzymes or whatever they are. And a good quality feed change like BB may be all it takes for the positive change, maybe nothing to do with the DSI? Or is it the DSI and not the BB?
All I found so far were a few stories in the horse which both stated no difference in lab tests of bacteria ect.
I have a horse that has confirmed hind gut ulcers and I am not sure which product to try and there are no gold standard gudielines as only one I saw haad a NASC (? approval) no FDA item yet. I dont want to waste my money.
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | Girls, I'm definitely as skeptical as everyone else...I promise! We had the horses on BB Feed for 45 days or so before we added the Transform DSI and that's when we started seeing a difference. I will look deeper into the studies provided and see if I can share one that gives a little more insight.
Initially when Greg and I decided to switch to Bluebonnet Feeds we agreed to give it a 90 day trial. Use exactly what they recommended and only their feed and supplements to see how the horses responded. I liked knowing that we were using products that were formulated to be used together instead of guessing at what we were putting into them. Needless to say, we have been pleased with what we've seen so far. |
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Expert
Posts: 2457
| TurnLane - 2015-05-14 1:29 PM lindseylou2290 - 2015-05-14 12:19 PM TurnLane - 2015-05-14 8:50 AM In all your research have you learned of a way or place to test these organisms/products for actual viability?
I remember the contraversy with the yeast based product prior to Probios (name escapes me) anyhow- they were very temperature sensitive and the chain of command was most often compromised and the bacteria was killed due to temp before the end user bought and used them. Not to mention the customer not storing them properly.
I have not been able to find any double blind studies yet that prove efficacy of hind gut utilization?
Are you looking for feed specific studies? Those will 99% of the time only be funded by the feed company and not double blind.
There are a plethora of independent peer - reviewed journal articles looking at hind gut fermentation in horses fed different probiotics and yeast cultures that prove the usefulness of said cultures - For example, one can increase plant cell wall digestion with the addition of S. cerevisiae (yeast). I suggest using the Google Scholar search engine to find journal articles ....
Also, interestingly enough, many of these bacteria and yeast cultures in probiotics and prebiotics are quite hardy and can survive temperature swings as well as UV light.
All I found so far were a few stories in the horse which both stated no difference in lab tests of bacteria ect.
I have a horse that has confirmed hind gut ulcers and I am not sure which product to try and there are no gold standard gudielines as only one I saw haad a NASC (? approval) no FDA item yet. I dont want to waste my money.
I agree that a good feed change will help many horses. If you look at the ingredient list of BB feeds - they add quite alot of helpful things. For example the intensify textured feed lists the essential minerals and vitamins. Then in the box directly below that there is a list of giant latin words ... for those that don't know, these are all either bacteria, yeast cultures, or enzymes that all help with digestion. (ALL super useful). DSI goes over and above as a supplement that adds more of everything already in the feed - this is super helpful when re-starting a horses gut after it has been through something that killed off its' natural gut flora for whatever reason. Often you will kill off gut flora after antibiotics, during stress, or from bad forage among other things.
If you're curious, bring up Google Scholar (It is NOT the same as Google) copy and paste one of those bacteria or yeasts or enzyme cultures into the search bar and add EQUINE after it. Hit enter and read peer-reviewed journal studies (which are approved by IACUC and University review panels before the research can be started) in which people have determined HOW and WHY that particular item helps or hinders a horses' gut.
PM me if ya need help or pointers. |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | astreakinchic - 2015-05-14 12:12 PM run n rate - 2015-05-14 1:06 PM Longneck - 2015-05-14 4:37 PM run n rate - 2015-05-13 6:25 PM My big mare would benefit greatly I think, any dealers in CA? Northern CA to be more specific, or So. Oregon? They have a dealer locator in their webpage, but I do know that they can ship the Transform supplement The dealer locator has you put in your Zip and then the furthest you can search is with in 300miles, nothing comes up. Yeah I don't get anything to come up either
I just looked and a store called Grow Fresh Organics is a dealer in Ft. Smith. You might call them and see if they are currently carrying any and if they could order the Transform DSI for you.
http://www.growfreshorganics.com/product/bluebonnet-intensify-omega-force/ |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | lindseylou2290 - 2015-05-14 2:28 PM TurnLane - 2015-05-14 1:29 PM lindseylou2290 - 2015-05-14 12:19 PM TurnLane - 2015-05-14 8:50 AM In all your research have you learned of a way or place to test these organisms/products for actual viability?
I remember the contraversy with the yeast based product prior to Probios (name escapes me) anyhow- they were very temperature sensitive and the chain of command was most often compromised and the bacteria was killed due to temp before the end user bought and used them. Not to mention the customer not storing them properly.
I have not been able to find any double blind studies yet that prove efficacy of hind gut utilization?
Are you looking for feed specific studies? Those will 99% of the time only be funded by the feed company and not double blind.
There are a plethora of independent peer - reviewed journal articles looking at hind gut fermentation in horses fed different probiotics and yeast cultures that prove the usefulness of said cultures - For example, one can increase plant cell wall digestion with the addition of S. cerevisiae (yeast). I suggest using the Google Scholar search engine to find journal articles ....
Also, interestingly enough, many of these bacteria and yeast cultures in probiotics and prebiotics are quite hardy and can survive temperature swings as well as UV light.
All I found so far were a few stories in the horse which both stated no difference in lab tests of bacteria ect.
I have a horse that has confirmed hind gut ulcers and I am not sure which product to try and there are no gold standard gudielines as only one I saw haad a NASC (? approval) no FDA item yet. I dont want to waste my money.
If you're curious, bring up Google Scholar (It is NOT the same as Google) copy and paste one of those bacteria or yeasts or enzyme cultures into the search bar and add EQUINE after it. Hit enter and read peer-reviewed journal studies (which are approved by IACUC and University review panels before the research can be started) in which people have determined HOW and WHY that particular item helps or hinders a horses' gut.
PM me if ya need help or pointers.
Okay so....We need to be new best friends  |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Great tip! Thanks so much. |
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Expert
Posts: 2457
| No worries ya'll! Glad I could help and give some pointers for those that may not be as familiar with research. |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Are you our Lindsy at Pryor by chance??
Anyhow, here is the first article I pulled up- pulling only from 2014 to current and it says evidence is lacking in results of probiotics. And it states that labels are not regulated and the ones they tested did not meet specs. Much like our horse feeds- these lack testing for label specs. But it does say they are not harmful. Just seems they are not proven helpful except in a few studies of loose stool.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jvim.12451/full
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Also Lindsey, which one would you recommend buying a subscription to? There are so many sites and articles. |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | rachellyn80 - 2015-05-14 2:31 PM astreakinchic - 2015-05-14 12:12 PM run n rate - 2015-05-14 1:06 PM Longneck - 2015-05-14 4:37 PM run n rate - 2015-05-13 6:25 PM My big mare would benefit greatly I think, any dealers in CA? Northern CA to be more specific, or So. Oregon? They have a dealer locator in their webpage, but I do know that they can ship the Transform supplement The dealer locator has you put in your Zip and then the furthest you can search is with in 300miles, nothing comes up. Yeah I don't get anything to come up either
http://www.growfreshorganics.com/product/bluebonnet-intensify-omega-force/
I've been in there a couple of times and all I've seen them carry is the Omega Force, but the guy that was running the register was extremely nice and would probably order for someone. |
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Expert
Posts: 2457
| TurnLane - 2015-05-14 3:10 PM Are you our Lindsy at Pryor by chance??
Anyhow, here is the first article I pulled up- pulling only from 2014 to current and it says evidence is lacking in results of probiotics. And it states that labels are not regulated and the ones they tested did not meet specs. Much like our horse feeds- these lack testing for label specs. But it does say they are not harmful. Just seems they are not proven helpful except in a few studies of loose stool. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jvim.12451/full
So, I encourage you to go back and re-read that article. Ya pulled up a review (good) that pulled together information from MANY different articles and its' purpose is not to make a judgement call but to just present the most current data. If you find a statement interesting, check the end of the sentence or paragraph. There you'll find a number that referrs back to the actual article that was published. Click that and it brings you the reference and you'll follow the path of evidence that led to the initial statement in the review.
Now - labels and loose stools only applies to a very few limited articles. Check out this one from 2009 - just because it is a few years old doesn't negate good sound science. In this study, they specifically looked at how yeast (S. cervisiae) changed the gut flora of a horse. https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publications/jas/articles/87/9/2844
In general, they found that by feeding yeast, they could increase the number of natural gut flora colonies already present in the horses they studied. If you can increase the natural gut flora present in your hind gut that are already doing their thing digesting away, wouldn't this equate to more absorbtion in the hind gut as well? (the answer is yes) Better use of whatever feedstuff you choose to feed and better digestion equate in my book to better absorbtion and better use of the hind gut. I will give that I'd liked to have seen more than 4 horses used, but they did this study correctly by using cannulaes to take samples instead of looking at stool samples. And, for the record, horses won't pass natural gut flora in their stool, unless they're sick, soooooo if you're going to measure gut flora you must use a cannulae to do it correctly.
Also - don't buy a subscription - not worth it!! Keep using Google Scholar and look for the free information. MANY of the major journals (Journal of Animal Science, PLOS, and more) are all going to free access on the internet anyway. If you're desperate for an article and it isn't free, head to your nearest Ag/State University Library and access it there. All land grant universities will have subscriptions to 99% of the research you'll be looking for anyway, so go hit 'em up!
ETA - please ignore my horrid spelling - trying to correct it!!
Edited by lindseylou2290 2015-05-14 3:58 PM
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Are you a vet student or vet tech? I am enjoying this conversation. |
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Folks on-line